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enlighten me - what's wrong with time outs? - Page 6

post #101 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by glorified_rice View Post
Did anyone suggest that here? I completely agree with you, but I didn't detect that lazy attitude from anyone posting here. (oops, karre, I think I might have misinterpreted your post. Sorry.
Offwing, it seems like we cross-posted to some extent...sorry.
No problem!

I think that there have been a small handful of posts that could be perceived as being judgmental and critial of others.
post #102 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidspiration View Post
so in the absence of intrinsic motivation, punishment is the method of ensuring compliance?

i personally have a lot more respect for children (even the littlest ones) and their ability to internalize how to do the right thing for no other reason than it's the right thing to do.
My daughter is definitely too young to understand that certain things are the "right thing to do." For instance, when I try to brush her teeth, I may as well be abusing her, because it makes her absolutely miserable. She is not going to decide to do it on her own anytime soon. It just has to be imposed upon her by an adult. And anyway, there is a lot of disagreement even among adults about what is ethically the right thing to do in various situations. So the point is that even though I don't think time outs would be effective (they seem arbitary, kind of like "Wear this clown mask because you did something wrong"), even removing children from dangerous situations function like punishments in that children don't get to make their own decisions based upon what they think is right. And you can't just assume that kids are eventually, as they get older, going to develop the same sense of right and wrong as their parents. Some rules we only learn to follow because they are rules.
post #103 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by offwing View Post
That just gives rise to a discussion of what is considered a punishment.

And given that a lot of the defintions here are already in conflict, I don't see much chance of agreement!



Personally, I think it is silly to nitpick over the exact technique when what really matters is the results.

If a child is secure, happy, loving and attached, what difference does it make what approach was used with that child?
I've known secure, happy, loving and attached children who were spanked.

So that's okay?

-Angela
post #104 of 185
moved to gd
post #105 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidspiration View Post
i think she was trying to point out that a life lived in fear of punishment um, well...sucks.
During part of my life, I am fearful of punishment (mostly little punishments like little fines). I think it would suck a lot more to convince yourself that you are following a bunch of arbitary laws in your life because you personally believe in all of them and you're not just scared of punishment. And then you expect your kids to feel the same way.
post #106 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna View Post
I've known secure, happy, loving and attached children who were spanked.
Really? Hard to believe. I'm pretty sure the prevailing opinion here (and yours too if I'm not mistaken) is that there is no way a child who was spanked could really be secure, happy, loving and attached due to the inherent and pervasive physical, emotional and psychological harm of spanking.

I thought it went without saying that most people here are quite sure that a child raised in home where corporeal punishment was practiced would never meet that standard.
post #107 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna View Post
I've known secure, happy, loving and attached children who were spanked.

So that's okay?

-Angela
Apparently, it was OK for those children. Although I doubt they really are secure, happy, loving and attached if they were spanked - unless you mean they were spanked, like, once or something. Almost no one parents perfectly all the time.

I've never really viewed time-outs, as we use them, as a punishment. They're a moment for everyone to take a breather from whatever is causing DD to get worked up so we can all calm ourselves. Honestly, I sound like I'm hauling her off to time out every 10 minutes - she's had two time outs from us in her entire life (she's 25 months), so it's not like I'm using them for every tiny little thing, and she's had 2 at daycare when she started hitting the other little girl there. We've now got a good handle on what causes her to get to that point and have been able to avoid the situation altogether for the last two weeks.
post #108 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by offwing View Post
Really? Hard to believe. I'm pretty sure the prevailing opinion here (and yours too if I'm not mistaken) is that there is no way a child who was spanked could really be secure, happy, loving and attached due to the inherent and pervasive physical, emotional and psychological harm of spanking.

I thought it went without saying that most people here are quite sure that a child raised in home where corporeal punishment was practiced would never meet that standard.
I don't think it's a stretch at all. Does it take more will-power, desire and work for the individual who *WAS* spanked... by all means.

I was spanked...and witnessed my sisters being all but beaten on a near daily basis. My sisters are both raising their children in the way we were raised and it breaks my heart to watch the cycle continue. BUT I AM SECURE, HAPPY, AND LOVING and I have been since I was a child...It's not been easy though...and I still continue to fight my monsters.

DH is sitting here reading over my shoulder. He has witnessed first hand the way I was raised when we visit and spend time with my sisters and the cousins. He marvels everyday at the loving, gentle way I treat our son.

I think it's a very ignorant thing to say that just because someone else *hurts* a child ****and deeply**** that they can never live a secure, happy life.
post #109 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaspirant View Post
I think it's a very ignorant thing to say that just because someone else *hurts* a child ****and deeply**** that they can never live a secure, happy life.
Please don't take it personally. I was not speaking about you or to your life.

First, I didn't say anything about living a secure, happy life as an adult. if you go back and read carefully, you will note that I specifically was talking about a child.

Second, I never said that I believe that. I was asking a question because it is my understanding a large part of the argument for GD/AP styles of child rearing is that traditional punishment practices (including time outs in some people's opinion) are so emotionally and psychologically harmful to children that they result in insecure, fearful unhappy children with attachment problems. So I was very surprised to see the post talking about spanking not having that effect.

My original point was if our goals as parents is is to raise happy, secure, loving and attached children, shouldn't we be focused on doing whatever works for us that results in that happy outcome? Instead of pointing fingers over exactly how many seconds in which room after saying what is supposed to be the evil act that results in sad, fearful kids?

I'm very sorry my post upset you truly, but I think you should go back and read the whole thing in context to see what I was actually saying.
post #110 of 185
i like this thread. i have always thought i put my children in "time-outs" but i have never and would never put them in a naughty chair or put their nose in the corner! that is shaming them and humiliating in my opinion. i only make my children sit in their room if all else has failed and we just downright need a break to regroup. i always considered this a time out, although i don't call it that. my children are allowed to play quietly in their room while we are taking our time to regroup, and then after a short period we gather back together and talk. my husband made my daughter sit in time out when she was about 4. he made her sit in the corner (not even in a chair). my husband and i have an agreement that we support each other when it comes to the other one disciplining the child, so i didn't say anything to him in front of my dd. afterward, i asked to see him alone though...and needless to say we don't do that anymore.
post #111 of 185
They use time-outs on the Nanny 911 and supernanny TV shows all the time and they do seem to work. It takes some crying and screaming to get them to settle down, but they teach the parents to be consistent. I don't think it causes any separation since the parents are there, or at least in the next room. The results seem to speak for themselves. But my baby is only 3 mo, so I don't have any experience in discipline, so I am not sure, but I don't see anything wrong with it.
post #112 of 185
Hi everyone~

This thread was moved to the Gentle Discipline Forum, so I would like to post a reminder of the forum guidelines here:

Quote:
Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.
post #113 of 185
I am struggling with this issue right now. We had never used time-out till very recently. I used to be quite vocal about my objections--many of which I still do have. I will never use TO for "not listening," being rude, etc.

But I changed my views about using time-out the day my DD grabbed my hair and pulled it so hard and persistently that my hand reached out and smacked her on the back just so she would let go. :cry You of course need not tell me how wrong this is. I was viscerally shocked that I had done it--I didn't even know I was doing it till I was done. (This was after I had already been hit a number of times.) Of course I cried and apologized (and DD, naturally, said "Mama, don't hit me! It's not okay to hit!") I felt like crap, believe you me, but the thing was, I just snapped. (I had already been hit a number of times and was at the end of my rope.)

That was the day I realized that when my DD is physically lashing out, I MUST get distance from her. If I shut myself in my room ("Mommy takes a time out"--often suggested here), she will follow and scream and bang on the door. If I shut her in her room, she will do the same. It's really all the same to her. I do one or the other--whichever. I tell her I can't be with her till she's ready to stop hurting and promises she will. It does work. Yes, she cries and protests. But I literally do not know what else to do. I never, ever, want to strike my child again.

IMO, this is what time-out is for--a last resort separation and cool-down time for parent and child when parent and child cannot cope. When we think of the origins of time-out, it is used in sports on players who are physically out of control. I think it does have a very limited place in that sense.
post #114 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by offwing View Post
No problem!

I think that there have been a small handful of posts that could be perceived as being judgmental and critial of others.
You mean like THIS one? This really hurt my feelings and made me very angry. I almost didn't come back to this thread because of it. People should not be allowed to make personal attacks like this poster did. Rule # 1 for the board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmzbm View Post
IMO time out is a way for parents to convey "You sit here because *I* am upset. I cannot reasonably control this situation so I will impose a punative, passive agressive consequence so that I may feel I have done something."

Time out IS love withdrawl, I don't care how "nicely" you go about it.

Learn a better way to parent!
(bold - mine)
That was a very blatant attack on, I assume (because I started the thread), my parenting skills and being told by a complete stranger to learn a 'better' way - well... :
post #115 of 185
One of the things I don't like about time-out is the power dynamic that generally has to exist for it to "work." What would keep my child sitting in the spot where I've placed him other than my exerting power over him? (Unless he were a particularly compliant child by nature, I suppose, but I don't know too many children like that.)

I can't think of a single thing that time-out can teach my child that I can't teach him even more effectively by engaging with him.
post #116 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
IMO, this is what time-out is for--a last resort separation and cool-down time for parent and child when parent and child cannot cope. When we think of the origins of time-out, it is used in sports on players who are physically out of control. I think it does have a very limited place in that sense.
This I agree with. I take time-outs for myself, sometimes, and we do time-outs together to cool down (though I don't impose them on him - I tell him I need it and suggest he do it, too). This isn't what most people mean by time-out, IME.

I'm sorry for your experience. I had a similar one when ds was 3 that was just terrible.
post #117 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
I emphasize with mothers who feel like there is no other choice but give time-out and maybe it's not such a bad thing to teach a child that everything he does in life has consequences.
I do agree - but for myself, not using time outs doesn't mean no consequences. There's a big difference between gentle discipline and no discipline. It's kind of like suggesting that being an AP parent necessarily means that your house is chaos (one of the most common charges, it seems, by those who don't believe in it).

One of the other reasons that we don't use timeouts is that evidence shows that they, like other forms of punishment, just don't work long-term. So while removal from a situation is often necessary, it stops that action, at that time - but it doesn't do anything to prevent the action in the future. Whereas more logical (natural) consequences can actually be learning experiences.

None of this is easy though, is it? And just when we think we've got our parenting groove worked out, there's another bend in the road that teaches us something.

P (whose DD is definitely not a compliant little girl - I'd rather she not learn to obey without question even if that makes it more difficult for me in the short-term!)
post #118 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
I am struggling with this issue right now. We had never used time-out till very recently. I used to be quite vocal about my objections--many of which I still do have. I will never use TO for "not listening," being rude, etc.

But I changed my views about using time-out the day my DD grabbed my hair and pulled it so hard and persistently that my hand reached out and smacked her on the back just so she would let go. :cry You of course need not tell me how wrong this is. I was viscerally shocked that I had done it--I didn't even know I was doing it till I was done. (This was after I had already been hit a number of times.) Of course I cried and apologized (and DD, naturally, said "Mama, don't hit me! It's not okay to hit!") I felt like crap, believe you me, but the thing was, I just snapped. (I had already been hit a number of times and was at the end of my rope.)

IMO, this is what time-out is for--a last resort separation and cool-down time for parent and child when parent and child cannot cope. When we think of the origins of time-out, it is used in sports on players who are physically out of control. I think it does have a very limited place in that sense.
ITA. And I think your use of TO makes sense.

I never had to think too much about discipline until my son turned about 3 1/2. Talking with him and explaining things worked really well. But at about 3 1/2 that completely changed. And I do think there is a testing of the limits that starts to happen. He's trying to find the boundaries/limits while also playing around with his sense of power and individuality.

Anyway, I say this because I was very opposed to using these kinds of techniques until I was faced with actually needing to! I have had to swallow my words a bit and realize that judging other's methods is completely off-base (for me, anyway) because I have no idea what they are dealing with in terms of behavior/temperment/personality/etc. Until age 3 1/2, I had a very easy-going child - at the time, I attributed it more to my parenting than to his personality/developmental stage/etc.

I agree whole-heartedly with what others have said that there is no single style of parenting that is best. Now that I have two children, I'm realizing how I'm going to have to adjust my style to each based on what they need at any point in time. I will forever be a student on this journey, which isn't a bad thing.
post #119 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampangel View Post
I agree whole-heartedly with what others have said that there is no single style. Now that I have two children, I'm realizing how I'm going to have to adjust my style to each based on what they need at any point in time. I will forever be a student in this journey, which isn't a bad thing.
My perspective on other people's parenting has changed a lot in the last few years (now that ds is approaching 7). There are still some absolutes, IMO - hitting and shaming, for example, are two things that I still am just as strongly against as ever. But I can't get as worked up about people using time-outs as I used to.

It's not the relationship I want with my child and I think it's a stretch to say that they're necessary, but I don't see them as hugely damaging the way I used to. (The way that most people I know use them, that is... I do think that some people go over the top. Supernanny is a shining example.)
post #120 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
My perspective on other people's parenting has changed a lot in the last few years (now that ds is approaching 7). There are still some absolutes, IMO - hitting and shaming, for example, are two things that I still am just as strongly against as ever. But I can't get as worked up about people using time-outs as I used to.

It's not the relationship I want with my child and I think it's a stretch to say that they're necessary, but I don't see them as hugely damaging the way I used to. (The way that most people I know use them, that is... I do think that some people go over the top. Supernanny is a shining example.)
Actually that's what I was trying to say earlier. People get worked up about other people's parenting skills, but maybe just maybe they had not been put in certain situations where they would do what they preach they never would never do.
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