enlighten me - what's wrong with time outs? - Page 5

[stlmomof2]

Originally Posted by alegna

sucks to be you.

-Angela

Whereas you feel morally driven to follow all of society's rules and you love and care about everything that your mom does?

[Janelovesmax]

I'm sorry, I have to say something.
Though I'm not an advocate of time-outs, there are moms on this board who OBVIOUSLY did not have to deal with challenges that require a time-out. I only gave my son time out once, when he was insisting on playing with oven. Though I'm all for gentle discipline and talking and explaining and teaching, there are some children that no matter what you say or how you act will not listen or understand unless the time-out is provided.

Boys for example are a lot more challenging,and more likely to deserve a time-out...
I emphasize with mothers who feel like there is no other choice but give time-out and maybe it's not such a bad thing to teach a child that everything he does in life has consequences.

[runes]

Originally Posted by mandymichel

Whereas you feel morally driven to follow all of society's rules and you love and care about everything that your mom does?

i think she was trying to point out that a life lived in fear of punishment um, well...sucks.

[runes]

Originally Posted by Janelovesmax

I'm sorry, I have to say something.
Though I'm not an advocate of time-outs, there are moms on this board who OBVIOUSLY did not have to deal with challenges that require a time-out. I only gave my son time out once, when he was insisting on playing with oven. Though I'm all for gentle discipline and talking and explaining and teaching, there are some children that no matter what you say or how you act will not listen or understand unless the time-out is provided.

Boys for example are a lot more challenging,and more likely to deserve a time-out...
I emphasize with mothers who feel like there is no other choice but give time-out and maybe it's not such a bad thing to teach a child that everything he does in life has consequences.

OBVIOUSLY? ok.

are you suggesting that those that are able to parent without coersion are only able to do so because they haven't had to deal with challenging behaviors or lucky enough to have compliant little girls? then that goes to the assumption that some children NEED to be coerced, or there is some behavior that NEEDS to be punished for in order to elicit compliance? i don't believe that for a second, that is quite a slippery slope and i'm not sure that is a can that you want to open.

[blessed]

I think it's true that not every child will respond to any given method of discipline. But I do think that the vast majority of children respond to noncoercive techniques.

[blessed]

Originally Posted by Janelovesmax

...there are moms on this board who OBVIOUSLY did not have to deal with challenges that require a time-out. I only gave my son time out once, when he was insisting on playing with oven..

I got a bit of a giggle over this as well.

Sure, that's right. None of us has ever had our child persist in playing with something we'd asked them not to. OBVIOUSLY if we had experienced misbehavior of THAT magnitude, we'd understand this whole time out business .

[Janelovesmax]

I'm not going to correct myself. There is no "one size fits all" - bottom line.
It's funny - I had a friend who had 2 children who were challenging and strong-willed and she was so proud of herself for never giving them "time-out". There is until little Jake came along.
There are some situations that can drive a mother off the wall and if she feels like she needs to give a child "time-out"for sanity of both them, then it's her prerogative and nobody can judge her.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by Janelovesmax

I'm sorry, I have to say something.
Though I'm not an advocate of time-outs, there are moms on this board who OBVIOUSLY did not have to deal with challenges that require a time-out. I only gave my son time out once, when he was insisting on playing with oven. Though I'm all for gentle discipline and talking and explaining and teaching, there are some children that no matter what you say or how you act will not listen or understand unless the time-out is provided.

Boys for example are a lot more challenging,and more likely to deserve a time-out...
I emphasize with mothers who feel like there is no other choice but give time-out and maybe it's not such a bad thing to teach a child that everything he does in life has consequences.

My first child has been a HUGE challenge. HUGE.

Ask anyone in my API group what it was like for a full YEAR (plus) of following him around the room monitoring him so he wouldn't hit the other children, guiding him to share the toys, removing him when he became so overwhelmed he would completely melt down kicking and screaming.

Add years of food allergies with Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde type behavioral reactions with aggression, tantrums, very little sleeping, and an almost autistic-like ability to tune you out, and you've got a kid that most people told me they understood why I wasn't getting pregnant again anytime soon.

High needs and spirited and sensitive to the n-th degree.

And, now, at 5.5 one of the most considerate, gentle, kind kids you ever want to meet. I'm biased, of course. But, I can't tell how often I get postive feedback from other people about how generous he is, how considerate and polite he is, how he helps kids mediate and negotiate. He's still very sensitive to injustices and other things, but he has STOPPED all of those insane toddler behaviors like hitting, tormenting the cat, grabbing toys, being unwilling to share, etc. And without punishment. Without time-outs. Without imposing consequences.

Now, if he knocks a kid down on the playground he doesn't look around to see if he's going to get in trouble or not. He helps the kid back up and hugs them or helps them find their mom and apologizes.

So, believe me, my kid was a huge pita for a long, long time. You could probably find lots of posts on the GD forum about it. But, he's passed through that stuff feeling like I'm his ally not his adversary, and he's got a much bigger tool box of stuff to call on.

I read the posts from people like Dar, UnschoolinMa, wuwei and see how these amazing mamas have raised their kids without punishment and coercion, and they are not having the issues that most of the other parents I know are.

So, I'm convinced: Time-outs are not only NOT necessary, they've got the potential to do a lot of damage to the kid and the parent-child relationship. It's just not worth it in my opinion. It's one of those things I want to shout from the rooftops: "Hey! You don't HAVE to punish your kid! There is another way!!" Obviously, there are tons of people out there and on here who are not going to go this route, but I do feel compelled to put it out there: There is a different way that does not involve your child turning into a monster, and in fact, will probably turn out better than you imagined.

Peace. :

[karre]

I'm not even sure we are all defining time outs in the same way. For instance, i do not think that removing your child from an activity where he could be harmed or could harm someone so that you can stop the behavior and explain to him that the activity or his actions were dangerous and could harm him or someone else is a time out. A time out is not (imo) a situation where you are doing something dangerous and the child must be removed for his safty so you can complete your task. Also a time out, imo, is not a situation where you are dealing with two kids in a fight and you must seperate them and cannot be with them both at once but must attend to them each individually. Also i would not conisider a mom (dad/parental figure) who removes herself/himself from a situation where she might yell or hit out of anger a time out. For young childern, this seperation may still be difficult but at least you can say "mama will be right with you, mama just needs to take care of..." (babies/toddlers can be put in cribs/playpens while still in your presence, etc)

A time out, by my definition, is where you deny/prohibit the child from being in your presence (or the presence of another caring adult) as a punishment for "bad behavior". The child is not allowed to benefit from your presence so he/she can discuss his/her emotions with you (or you help the child interept his/her emotions) until the child has served her punishment. If the child was just removed from a difficult situation and has a lot of intense emotions at the time of the time out, i could see how the child would feel quite isolated and abandoned with no one to turn to for support. Even if the child is calmed down and then ordered to go to time out afterwards the child could feel very ashamed of his/her prior emotions and feel afraid that he/she has done something to cause the parent to no longer love him/her.

[Janelovesmax]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

My first child has been a HUGE challenge. HUGE.

Ask anyone in my API group what it was like for a full YEAR (plus) of following him around the room monitoring him so he wouldn't hit the other children, guiding him to share the toys, removing him when he became so overwhelmed he would completely melt down kicking and screaming.

Add years of food allergies with Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde type behavioral reactions with aggression, tantrums, very little sleeping, and an almost autistic-like ability to tune you out, and you've got a kid that most people told me they understood why I wasn't getting pregnant again anytime soon.

High needs and spirited and sensitive to the n-th degree.

And, now, at 5.5 one of the most considerate, gentle, kind kids you ever want to meet. I'm biased, of course. But, I can't tell how often I get postive feedback from other people about how generous he is, how considerate and polite he is, how he helps kids mediate and negotiate. He's still very sensitive to injustices and other things, but he has STOPPED all of those insane toddler behaviors like hitting, tormenting the cat, grabbing toys, being unwilling to share, etc. And without punishment. Without time-outs. Without imposing consequences.

Now, if he knocks a kid down on the playground he doesn't look around to see if he's going to get in trouble or not. He helps the kid back up and hugs them or helps them find their mom and apologizes.

So, believe me, my kid was a huge pita for a long, long time. You could probably find lots of posts on the GD forum about it. But, he's passed through that stuff feeling like I'm his ally not his adversary, and he's got a much bigger tool box of stuff to call on.

I read the posts from people like Dar, UnschoolinMa, wuwei and see how these amazing mamas have raised their kids without punishment and coercion, and they are not having the issues that most of the other parents I know are.

So, I'm convinced: Time-outs are not only NOT necessary, they've got the potential to do a lot of damage to the kid and the parent-child relationship. It's just not worth it in my opinion. It's one of those things I want to shout from the rooftops: "Hey! You don't HAVE to punish your kid! There is another way!!" Obviously, there are tons of people out there and on here who are not going to go this route, but I do feel compelled to put it out there: There is a different way that does not involve your child turning into a monster, and in fact, will probably turn out better than you imagined.

Peace. :

I applaud you for this. I honestly have nothing but admiration for mothers who dealt with such challenges and knew a better way to deal with it then "time-outs" and as I said I don't advocate them in any way and if I can avoid giving them ever again, I would love to. You are a testimonial to all women out there.
All I'm saying is that I emphasize with mothers who feel the need to give a child a time-out and maybe some approach works with one child that will not work with other children. I feel like the way this board is approached is with a lot of judgement, some posts are short and plain mean and I don't see a need for it.

We are in the same boat here. We are all trying to do what's best. I know for sure that some children are easier then others and a mother might think that her child is a challenge but really has no idea what a challenge is. So there is no room for judgement on these boards, none.

With that said, I appreciated your post so much, because it was respectful of how I felt and at the same time offered hope to moms who are struggling now.

[Rico'sAlice]

Originally Posted by kidspiration

OBVIOUSLY? ok.

are you suggesting that those that are able to parent without coersion are only able to do so because they haven't had to deal with challenging behaviors or lucky enough to have compliant little girls? then that goes to the assumption that some children NEED to be coerced, or there is some behavior that NEEDS to be punished for in order to elicit compliance? i don't believe that for a second, that is quite a slippery slope and i'm not sure that is a can that you want to open.

:
To vouch for this in a round-about way, I live/work with SN adults many of whom have outrageous behavior issues. I really can not believe that many posters have children who present challenges that are on some level way beyond what we deal with. [And FTR in the community I work in we are talking about living together 24/7]
Personal philosophy aside, for Legal human rights reasons we simply are not allowed to use punishments. At all. Ever. (And the community I am involved with generally does not use medication to "treat" behavior issues or drug people into submission.)
So we are pretty much "forced" to stick with discussion and natural consequences.
It is totally possible. And it works. When it doesn't work b/c of an individuals lack of ability to learn XYZ there is usually a way to control the environment to prevent the bad situation from reoccurring.

We don't use "time outs." They are considered punishment.
However, I/we/the state don't consider that suggesting someone might want some time alone to calm down and them going to their room or wherever voluntarily to be a "time out." It is a coping technique that I use on myself. IMO it feels totally different than being sent to or "put" in timeout.

The rough w/ animals thing comes up here too. Some people (due to the extent of their disability) are simply not going to learn to be sufficiently gentle when with pets. Therefore it is our responsibility to ensure that an opportunity for them to hurt an animal never happens. It is our responsibility to see that they don't get bit. That can be done w/o anyone getting punished. I'm not sure why that is hard to get.

[offwing]

Originally Posted by kidspiration

as for the contentions that not using time outs is a 'cookie cutter' approach, i'm kind of :. what is more cookie cutter than a time out?

That was not the contention. The contention was that there is no one single true way to raise a child. Period.

Now go sit in the corner until you learn to read! ( - just joking!)

[karre]

Originally Posted by kidspiration

also, there is the concept that a discipline technique like time out teaches a child to relate everything to their OWN experience. it can foster self-centeredness and also negatively impact the development of compassion and empathy. since the child learns, time out after time out, that a negative consequence happens to them due to x y or z behavior, they don't learn that it's not ok to do x y and z. instead, they internalize that either they have to be better at not getting caught, or not to do a certain thing because of the impact on themselves, not on the effect that their actions have over others.

those are not a life lessons that i would like for my child to learn.

yes, there are negative social consequences out in the real world. but honestly, i don't cheat, steal or hit others because i'm afraid of going to jail or being sued. i don't do it because somewhere, somehow i learned that cheating, stealing, hitting etc are not nice, kind or ethical things to do to OTHER people and not because i'm afraid to land in the pokey.

as for using time outs as being a welcome shift in the current parenting paradigm, i do somewhat agree. as a physically abused child, i sure wish my parents used time outs instead of hitting me. but it is still the lesser of evils, and i hope to transcend these patterns and embrace truly non-violent parenting. i do believe that peace in the world begins with peace in the home.

I don't really believe in time outs. Yet i do not believe that using time out to deter a child from hitting the cat will prevent a child from learning to have compassion and empathy for the cat. A parent can use time out to impose consequences for hitting the cat and ALSO teach their child that the cat should be treated with kindness and help to foster compassion for the cat. A child afraid of time out might learn to leave the cat alone much sooner than he learns empathy for the cat (and initially will be motivated by time out) BUT i do not think that IN ANY WAY prevents the child from learning empathy for the cat. Some parents, who are not invested in the moral growth and maturity of their child, may use quick and effective means of behavior control and then fail to do the work of teaching their child why they should do the right thing (other than time out) but i don't think these people/situations are created by the very nature of the discipline that is used. I do not think the discipline itself prevents the child from learning to be motivated by other forces. I would expect those of you who stated that they have faith in a child's ability to learn, reason and grow would agree with this statement.

I think this is a very poor argument against time outs. I think many parents who use time outs also teach their childern moral responsibility. I have yet to see an arguement that demonstrates why a child who initially was motivated by a fear of time outs would fail to learn to be motivated by moral reasons.

I think the problem with time outs arises when the time outs damage the parent child relationship (which i believe eventually happens and that is the reason i do not believe in time outs). If the child develops a lack of trust and feels insecurity about his relationship with his parents then i think a problem arises. The child may become unattached to the parent and form another attachment elsewhere. If this attachment is with a loving, responsible and invested adult like a loving grandmother, aunt or teacher then the child will still most likely grow up to be a responsible, compassionate person. However if the child instead forms an attachment with another child, someone who has not yet learned to be responsible themselves, then the child will fail to mature normally and and may grow up to be motivated solely by self interest. (i think the degree to which this happens depends upon how sustained the child's attachement to other childern is and how long the parent--child relationship is damaged.)

Bottom line: When the child feels he can no longer rely on the parents for love, support, etc the parent loses his/her natural, non-coercive power (that forms out of the child's love and trust for the parent) to influence and teach the child.

Originally Posted by kidspiration

nobody said that using time outs prevent the development of empathy and compassion.

Of course time outs are not going to teach empathy and compassion, i clearly state that the parents can do that seperatly from the time outs but you stated that time outs foster self centeredness and negatively impact the development of empathy. I don't see any compelling evidence for that statement. i think that the parents and people the child love and admire will have a much greater impact on that then the discipline method. The problem is not that time outs foster self-centeredness but that they destroy a child's trust in his/her parents and then the parents lose the power to influence the child. That same child though could form a healthy attachment with grandma and learn compassion and empathy from her despite A MILLION time outs imposed by mama and dada.

[alegna]

Okay- I think we can all agree (at least I hope...) that no child *deserves* to be hit.

I realize that most of us grew up thinking at least punishment was just part of life, but I would like to ask everyone to stretch their minds a bit.

Perhaps, no child *deserves* to be punished.

-Angela

[glorified_rice]

Originally Posted by Janelovesmax

I applaud you for this. I honestly have nothing but admiration for mothers who dealt with such challenges and knew a better way to deal with it then "time-outs" and as I said I don't advocate them in any way and if I can avoid giving them ever again, I would love to. You are a testimonial to all women out there.
All I'm saying is that I emphasize with mothers who feel the need to give a child a time-out and maybe some approach works with one child that will not work with other children. I feel like the way this board is approached is with a lot of judgement, some posts are short and plain mean and I don't see a need for it.

We are in the same boat here. We are all trying to do what's best. I know for sure that some children are easier then others and a mother might think that her child is a challenge but really has no idea what a challenge is. So there is no room for judgement on these boards, none.

With that said, I appreciated your post so much, because it was respectful of how I felt and at the same time offered hope to moms who are struggling now.

Thank you for saying that. I think that just by discussing this and trying to learn from each other we are all evolving as parents. There are so many people out there who never even take the time to think about issues regarding discipline and how their approach might affect their children.

[karre]

Originally Posted by glorified_rice

Thank you for saying that. I think that just by discussing this and trying to learn from each other we are all evolving as parents. There are so many people out there who never even take the time to think about issues regarding discipline and how their approach might affect their children.

which is why it is preposterous that anyone would suggest any of us (proponents of time out or not) engage in the type of "lazy" parenting where discipline is used as an attempt to make our problems (ie kids) go away.

[offwing]

Originally Posted by alegna

Perhaps, no child *deserves* to be punished.

That just gives rise to a discussion of what is considered a punishment.

And given that a lot of the defintions here are already in conflict, I don't see much chance of agreement!



Personally, I think it is silly to nitpick over the exact technique when what really matters is the results.

If a child is secure, happy, loving and attached, what difference does it make what approach was used with that child?

[glorified_rice]

Originally Posted by alegna

Okay- I think we can all agree (at least I hope...) that no child *deserves* to be hit.

I realize that most of us grew up thinking at least punishment was just part of life, but I would like to ask everyone to stretch their minds a bit.

Perhaps, no child *deserves* to be punished.

-Angela

I agree with you Angela. That kind of thinking could change the world. It would take a huge paradigm shift in the minds of so many people to be able to accept that idea. The problem though, that comes to mind, is how does one define punishment. I'm sure we would all differ at least slightly on that question. I don't think I have ever "punished" my son, but some of you may think otherwise. I guess it all depends on each individual's perception.
I am of the mindset that, at least within a certain age range, no child really deserves punishment for anything. Now, teenagers on the other hand... punishment might be called for when they are sneaking out of their bedroom at night, etc... I don't even want to think about that I can't think of anything that my son could do that would warrant a punishment or a "forced" time-out.

[glorified_rice]

Originally Posted by karre

which is why it is preposterous that anyone would suggest any of us (proponents of time out or not) engage in the type of "lazy" parenting where discipline is used as an attempt to make our problems (ie kids) go away.

Did anyone suggest that here? I completely agree with you, but I didn't detect that lazy attitude from anyone posting here. (oops, karre, I think I might have misinterpreted your post. Sorry.
Offwing, it seems like we cross-posted to some extent...sorry.

[karre]

Originally Posted by kidspiration

nobody said that using time outs prevent the development of empathy and compassion.

it is entirely possible to use time outs as a form of discipline and have the end result be an adult that is empathetic and compassionate. but it's not BECAUSE of the discipline that they developed the ability to be kind and see the world through other people's perspectives.

as for the contentions that not using time outs is a 'cookie cutter' approach, i'm kind of :. what is more cookie cutter than a time out?

Toddler hits the cat...TIME OUT.

Preschooler hits mommy...TIME OUT.

Child doesn't comply with parents directive...TIME OUT.

that's not consistency, people.

that's lazy, uninspired parenting.

i guess i need to get ready for those tomatoes again.)

I guess i interpreted this post as suggesting that time-outs were a lazy form of parenting. I'm not even sure we are all using the same def of time out though. Oh and there was one other post where kidspiration gave a defination of inspired parenting (after this post i think) which may have used the word "lazy" in reference to time-outs but i may be wrong...i can't find it right now.

kidspirations post was actually very respectful...just found it.