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Choosing not to get a birth certificate at all... - Page 6

post #101 of 218
We did it because we wanted to claim the children on our taxes and get them covered by insurance, plus we couldn't think of a reason that seemed compelling for us not to.
post #102 of 218
Personally, I would have been absolutely livid if my mother had chosen not to register my birth. I wouldn't have been able to get a job or education, nor would I have been able to travel around and eventually move to the UK to live with my partner. But, I'm not from the US and won't even pretend to know how things are over there.

It's funny, I'd have never even thought of not registering a birth, and in my situation it definitely wouldn't be a good decision. I trust the governments of both my country of origin and the one I live in now enough to let them know some details. I'm sure they've got better things to do than to track me down. Not to mention that I need my kids to be able to travel in order to meet my side of the family. It's more important for me to be able to see the world than to hide from the government.

Different people have different priorities, I suppose. Thank you for starting this thread, I would never have even thought about this on my own.
post #103 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrodjm View Post
Without a birth certificate you can't get a SS card. A SS card is needed here in NY to obtain any state id including a driver's license.
To get a New York State (NYS) DL you need ID + a SScard OR ID + a letter from SSA explaining you are not eligible for a SSN. The second option is how there can be so many foreign born cabbies in NYC.

IMO if someone lives in NYS and wants a DL, the most convenient thing is to get an out of state address and DL, then use it to drive as much as you like in NYS. Lots of college students do this. One drawback is not being able to vote in your true home district.

Quote:
A birth certificate is needed to obtain a US passport and register for school also.
I researched it over a decade ago and believed the same thing until Kat made me jealous of her web surfing skills with this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajahkat View Post
http://studenttravel.about.com/od/pl...ertificate.htm

Nope, apparently you can get around it after all!
For schools you can use age establishing ID like family bible birth record, baptismal record, etc. You can print a blank baptismal record of the internet, design your own, or buy them at Christian book stores.

Quote:
It would be impossible here to get a marriage license without a passport or state id.
You actually only need one document for each of the following two lists.
Age establishing documents
  • Birth certificate
  • Baptismal record
  • Naturalization record
  • Census record
Identity establishing documents
  • Driver's license
  • Passport
  • Employment picture ID
  • Immigration record

Quote:
Considering that I want my child to have the option of traveling internationally, driving, marrying and working wherevever they choose I would definitley register them and obtain a birth certificate.
I hope you don't take offense at my picking apart your post, Dana. I only chose yours because of the ones I skimmed yours gave the most specific needs for a b/c & SSN.

I made my decision after much research over a decade ago, only to learn just now in this very thread that some of the "facts" upon which I based my decision, aren't facts after all. I'd like everyone here to have the *accurately* informed consent I didn't have.

~BV
post #104 of 218
Thread Starter 
I'm glad to see that some people are moved to do some more research on the subject. There is a lot out there that people should know... While I might be able to share my personal views and a few of the facts I've come across, I am in no way capable of giving a comprehensive summary... I'd much rather you all look for yourselves... Some wonderful places to begin have been stated in this thread. Part of what is going so wrong with out country, is that people are willing to take at face value what they are told. America is a county that shuts up and puts up, because that's what we have been led to believe will keep us secure. :

I don't have anything to hide from anyone... I am proud to be who I am, and proud of how far I've come, and I stand firmly in all of the choices I make, knowing that I have given them the utmost thought. What is so terrible, and so sad, and frightening(Really, the only thing I am afraid of), is that when a person deviates from the norm, when they go beyond convention, when they go against the grain they are seen as being wrong. People are quick to look at us as stupid, crazy, radical, criminal. Like there must be some inherent flaw of character in order for a person to not want what everyone else wants. I suppose that rings a bell with many of the women in the UC crowd, and yet even here different ideas have been met with misunderstanding and fear. It should go to show just how off track we have all been led by our government, that even the most open minded of us have a hard time wrapping their heads around the thought of not doing what we are told. To me that is reason enough to start my children out, from the very beginning, knowing that it doesn't have to be that way.

The reasons that keep coming up for having aforementioned documentation are all things that we SHOULD BE FREE TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE! But because compliance is all that so many know, it's all they believe. If I am in love, I will be with that person regardless of whether or not a piece of paper tells me I will. If I want my child to learn something, I know I am capable of teaching them and don't need someone else to tell me how. I will do everything in my power to make sure that my child stays fit and healthy, rather than relying on someone else to fix them when they are unwell. I will show by example that a rich, full, and happy life can be led outside of what society tells us will make us happy.

So many here have said it is impossible to function without these documents, without government's watchful eye on you, without being put through the wringer. That is only true if you believe it, and those things will never change so long as you do.

All of that being said... I really does make me happy to see that some mothers have been able to take good away from this thread. I think it may be worth it to start another thread for those interested in pursuing life without documents for their children, so that we can all speak openly without having to worry about defending ourselves. Let me know what you all think.
post #105 of 218
Well, it has definately made for one of the hotter discussions in the UC forum in a long time I still plan to pursue a BC for my dd but but I'm always open for food for thought and learning more, there is nothing wrong with that.
post #106 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C View Post
*
It is also disturbing to me that my bc says right on it that it is a bank note- that is, a tradable commodity on the world markets.

*
If you think this is a conspiracy theory, maybe you could explain to me why my bc says "Canada Bank Note." I haven't tried yet, but I thought of taking it to the Bank of Canada and trying to cash it in... I wonder what my name is worth.

*
I find it disturbing that every document I have ever recieved from the gov't or bank has my name in capital letters, like my bc. I know that is because my name is incorporated, ... And it is bankrupt, just like the government that incorporated it.

*
Look up STRAWMAN, government bankruptcy, read through the articles at the IMF site, use the new terminology you'll learn there to look more up. The trail is long and very dirty, and if you have the stomach for it, you'll want to search more.

I just thought that this post was worth repeating...
Everyone asking WHY someone would do this should go look up all the things mentioned here. I'm serious. Honestly, I don't even like to think about it. I like to pretend to love living in my la-la-land, but the fact of the matter is that we live in a very corrupt system.

PreggieUBA2C... good post.
Have you redeemed your dummy?

ETA: one other thing I would search would be UCC dealings. I wish I felt like I could get away with not registering my kids (we don't live near off the grid enough IMO) because I don't like the idea that my children are a commodity.
post #107 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by anubis View Post
Personally, I would have been absolutely livid if my mother had chosen not to register my birth. I wouldn't have been able to get a job or education, nor would I have been able to travel around and eventually move to the UK to live with my partner. But, I'm not from the US and won't even pretend to know how things are over there.

It's funny, I'd have never even thought of not registering a birth, and in my situation it definitely wouldn't be a good decision. I trust the governments of both my country of origin and the one I live in now enough to let them know some details. I'm sure they've got better things to do than to track me down. Not to mention that I need my kids to be able to travel in order to meet my side of the family. It's more important for me to be able to see the world than to hide from the government.

Different people have different priorities, I suppose. Thank you for starting this thread, I would never have even thought about this on my own.
i totally agree. god, life would have been a nightmare for me.

but this has definitely been an eyeopening discussion.
post #108 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhagen View Post
...ETA: one other thing I would search would be UCC dealings. I wish I felt like I could get away with not registering my kids (we don't live near off the grid enough IMO) because I don't like the idea that my children are a commodity.
What is UCC?
post #109 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryonyvaughn View Post
What is UCC?

Uniform Commercial Code

Plenty of people think that anyone who believes this stuff is a quack... but most of those people would also tell me that I should be put in jail for not vaccinating my children.
post #110 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongBeliever View Post
I think it may be worth it to start another thread for those interested in pursuing life without documents for their children, so that we can all speak openly without having to worry about defending ourselves. Let me know what you all think.
I would like that. I've been lurking on this thread from the beginning and found it quite informative.
post #111 of 218
StrongBeliever I want to thank you for starting this thread. I have learned a lot, as
well as gained a want to learn more on this subject.

When I had my dd I had a hospital birth. I am a single Mom, my ex never paid any
interest to be included in any official documents regarding our dd, so I never pushed the
issue. When I got her BC in the mail it didn't list my name. My dd's BC lists her name
and date of birth, that's all. I learned later it was some sort of "new" idea my State (PA)
had for registering births for children to single Mother's.

When I needed to get a SS card for dd the name less BC wasn't good enough for them.
They asked me to get a letter from her school that stated that they knew I was her
Mother. Which I was only a piece of paper, school letter head, that I could have easily
stolen with a typed letter stating they "knew" I was dd's Mother. Says who?

So the official document wasn't good enough, but a typed letter from who knows who
was. The whole thing was a joke.
post #112 of 218
I'd greatly appreciate a thread to talk about life without "standard" documents, etc. I don't want to feel like I have to register the birth of any other children I might have, b/c in reality I don't want to do it. I wish I'd known 3 months ago that you can get a passport without a BC... It's too D***n bad you can't resind a BC! Crap!!! But if I'd said no, then the hospital and CPS would have had even more "fun" with me for not wanting to register DS.... :-( It's a sad, sad world we live in...:
post #113 of 218
I have not redeemed my strawman. I really wish I could. We don't have a recognised uniform commercial code in Canada and although there have been men and women here who have spent years fighting this ugly assault, many of them have spent years in jail without charges being laid, and had their children taken from them, placed in foster care, vaccinated (shudder), and placed in public school against their parents wishes (shudder again- but a great way to attempt to end the family cycle of freedom-fighting). Obviously, it is easy to see why 'they' can't do that, but "they' have and continue to physically place men and women in jails.

I can state with complete accuracy and conviction that I am not under the jurisdiction of the courts, because I am not, but if they drag me there physically, or come to my home, open my door forcibly and remove me, the fact that I am aware of their crime against me and my family, the men, women and children of this country is not going to stop my family from being broken apart. While I may not be compelled by the 'law', and legislation doesn't pertain to me as flesh and blood, I can be assaulted and thrown in a cell by men who really believe that they are doing what is right- which is by far the hardest thing to overcome (the belief that one is doing the right thing when in fact, it is wrong...).

I wish that it didn't come to that, but in the end, the relative safety of my family, however precarious it is, is much more important to us than dealing with the individuals who are perpetrating the lie. We have alternate plans for coping with what we believe is the inevitable- a fabricated economic collapse that will bring the 'people' into willing submission. This is the only way we can see really dealing with this- by staying mostly quiet, not drawing undue attention to ourselves, and being prepared to live autonomously eventually. If we didn't have children, we would be the ones in jail, I'm sure, and maybe when our children are grown we will work together to 'fix' this- that is my hope.

This whole aspect of my existence in this world is very upsetting to me. I have a lot of unusual goals aspirations- living off-grid in a small, possibly intentional community, building with straw and cob, self-sufficiency- energy and food, freebirthing, 'unschooling' (my term for what we do is too long, so I just use this one for brevity), living faith life that is not fettered to an institution even though I do have many beliefs in common with those who are part of that, and a general sense that I don't 'belong' to anyone here, least of which a faceless corporation that sells me as a human resource for future economic gain and political capital. So, since I have only been able to check off three items from the list as being achieved, I have a long way to go and already have encountered so much hostility that it is clear to me that I must live rather quietly so that I do not endanger my family by being 'found out'. I am actually a bit concerned about sharing this here; I'm counting on most thinking I'm just a nut- and that those with interest don't need information from me- it's readily available, so I'm not blowing any whistle here.

I often find that I can relate very well to the mindset that my grandparents had when they devised a cunning and ingenious scheme for escaping communist Hungary. They did it! They were freedom-fighters too (a gene must have mutated to pass that on to me ), but to have spoken to anyone about it at the time would have had them in jail, children taken, and probably shot. They did it quietly and it took many years of planning. The saddest part though, is that they thought they found their freedom here I don't have the heart to share what I've learned with them; they are old now and probably would prefer to believe that they have found freedom than to become aware that they left the frying pan...

StrongBeliever, I would never talk about this with anyone who knows me personally- except for a family we met here who has moved, but came to us with this info, after much observation of us and leading questions to see if we would be receptive. We were, and now we know a few others who are learning and one who has completely disavowed his strawman- he couldn't redeem it, but he sent in it's closure through a (strawman) death certificate (name in capitals, obviously- he's not dead, IT is) and has had himself removed from the system altogether. He has chosen to live peacefully this way and doesn't drive or use 'public' services or ammenities so that he doesn't have to fight for everything to which he is in fact entitled. He does travel back and forth between the united states and canada, though, with just a bible with his family tree written in it. So I suppose he's in the system in that way- they don't ask him at the border anymore; they just wave him through. I think he has to exit the vehicle, if he's in one, and walk across, though.

The list of friends who have been receptive to UC is umm... well, one, so short, and even shorter for non-vaccination, and after a fiasco because we shared the real effects of birth control pills and information about the pharmaceutical industry (unwisely assuming that our friends would WANT to know...), we've learned to let others speak first and to smile a lot. We've also become experts at non-jarring non-sequiturs. We are pretty lonely, I suppose, not in quantity of friendships, but in friendships that are open and within which we can just really be, completely, without hesitation.

I understand completely why you and others prefer to remain quiet while encouraging others to look for themselves- it's very wise. I am also very familiar with the negative responses I've read here. Most refreshing however, is that there are women who are open to learing and supporting one another in that pursuit! I've been doing this alone and it is so nice to see that it is possible that we could learn together! I have much to learn and I love being able to share and pick one anothers' brains. That said, a new thread might be in order, but where? Off-grid Living?

I'm sorry if I've missed anything... I'll be back (moohahahahah ).
post #114 of 218
Quote:
but if there is anyone out there that could share their experiences, I'd love to hear! How did it effect your lives? Did it make finding health care(I'm one to stick to "alternative health care" anyway) hard? Has there been times that not having a BC for your child has impeded anything serious?
We all have birth certificates because we love to travel.

We are eagerly awaiting the day when borders will all fall and we will be living in an anarchist heaven.

Until then, we'll be filling our passports every couple of years.

You CAN get around not having a birth certificate, if you have enough other supporting information (from the link kindly supplied above):

" As many of the following as possible:

* Baptismal certificate
* Hospital birth certificate
* Census record
* Early school record
* Family bible record
* Doctor's record of post-natal care

These documents must be early public records showing the date and place of your birth, preferably created within the first five years of your life.

# You may also submit an Affidavit of Birth form DS-10 from an older blood relative, i.e.: a parent, aunt, uncle or sibling who has personal knowledge of your birth. It must be notarized or show the seal and signature of the acceptance agent."

It seems to me that you are going to just create more records of yourself, spend more time and money, and do more running around. Why not simplify and get the certificate when it's easy?
post #115 of 218
Quote:
It would be impossible here to get a marriage license without a passport or state id.

You actually only need one document for each of the following two lists.
Age establishing documents

* Birth certificate
* Baptismal record
* Naturalization record
* Census record

Identity establishing documents

* Driver's license
* Passport
* Employment picture ID
* Immigration record
And you can't get a driver's licence, passport, employment or immigration record or naturalisation record without a birth certificate.

I just think that those who blithely say that the child could go and get a BC if they wanted to drive are not dissimilar from those who say THEIR darling child would never hit/bite/become gay/renounce god/fall in love with a person of the wrong colour, etc. Simply because you don't want them to do it doesn't mean they won't. After all, are YOU exactly as your parents planned you to be?
post #116 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
And you can't get a driver's licence, passport, employment or immigration record or naturalisation record without a birth certificate.
I posted that information specifically to Dana's claim about NY state documentation. To get a marriage license in NY the DL doesn't have to be from NY. You can get an employment photo ID without a SSN or b/c. You can make one yourself easily or you can get one from many of the companies that don't require them. Some colleges have the same IDs for employees, students, and athletic club member.

I don't want to get sucked into researching every piece of documentation for every state. That's not my job. My point was many claims people are making about life restrictions without a b/c, after a little research on the relevant state website, prove to be false.

Quote:
I just think that those who blithely say that the child could go and get a BC if they wanted to drive are not dissimilar from those who say THEIR darling child would never hit/bite/become gay/renounce god/fall in love with a person of the wrong colour, etc. Simply because you don't want them to do it doesn't mean they won't. After all, are YOU exactly as your parents planned you to be?
That is a wild analogy. One is a fact, the other is a blindspot.

It is a fact that every state makes provisions for delayed birth certificates. Have you read Spiritual Midwifery? One of the babies born on the meandering road trip from California to Tennessee wanted to go to college or the military or something and needed a b/c. There were in a bad situation because no one could remember exactly where along the route he was born. They made an educated guess, had to get a bunch of signed affidavits, filed for a delayed birth certificate, and it was issued and he continued on with his life's plans.

Some folks in this thread have expressed great inconvenience in getting SSNs and even copies of b/cs. It really shouldn't be that hard. While it might be burdensome for a particular individual's circumstances, it's not an unreasonable burden to go to a government office to get government documentation. If you are getting unreasonable run around from a government bureaucracy, go to your representative's office and have them intervene on your behalf. That's their job. We got my niece two years after her kidnapping and were able to get her a passport in less than one week with a faxed copy of a b/c, a faxed affidavit from her father, and a faxed immunization record WITH the help of our representative's office and a good sob story at the county clerk's office.

An earlier poster (sorry, I'd like to credit you but skimmed the entire thread and couldn't find your post) gave good advice about not getting a b/c and making preparations in case your child might later want a delayed b/c. She suggested getting witness statements verifying pregnancy and birth of neighbors, medical types, etc, and have them sign them in front of a notary public and have them notarized. Save them in a lock box in the event you need the documentation in the future.

As with any lifestyles outside a rigid mainstream, there are costs to be paid. Normally it's in doing your research to learn your facts beforehand and the necessary accommodations, and dealing laying low, getting supporters or dealing with naysayers. Many have us dealt with this in UCing, cloth diapering or ECing, living vaccine free, becoming our family's primary care provider, home- or un-schooling, etc.

Everyone here is intensely aware there are people opposed to not registering a child's birth. If you have a reason not already stated once or a multitude of times, I don't mind your sharing it. If you're just outraged and have nothing new to add, please refrain from posting it here. You can start a new thread soliciting reasons why it's foolish, irresponsible, and bad parenting not to register a birth. I just feel the repeat posts aren't helping anyone here and are dragging down the thread.

~BV
post #117 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by izobelle View Post

You CAN get around not having a birth certificate, if you have enough other supporting information (from the link kindly supplied above):

" As many of the following as possible:

* Baptismal certificate
* Hospital birth certificate
* Census record
* Early school record
* Family bible record
* Doctor's record of post-natal care

These documents must be early public records showing the date and place of your birth, preferably created within the first five years of your life.

# You may also submit an Affidavit of Birth form DS-10 from an older blood relative, i.e.: a parent, aunt, uncle or sibling who has personal knowledge of your birth. It must be notarized or show the seal and signature of the acceptance agent."

It seems to me that you are going to just create more records of yourself, spend more time and money, and do more running around. Why not simplify and get the certificate when it's easy?
Here is where I'd run into more problems...
We're not religious
No hospital record after a UC unless you transfer
The census hasn't come around that I know of
My children did not go to early school (only ds2 went to pre-k at 4/5yrs)
No bible, again not religious
Only ds3 saw a Dr 5 days to a week postpartum, just because CPS was on our rear ends

So here I am working on the affidavits (that I'll be making copies of) and sending to the state of NC and they. better. give me. the damn BC. : (that was my angst against the gov't, not this thread)

now this "DS-10"...what state, country or province are you in? If it only pertains to your area and that is not New York state or North Carolina state, then you don't have to tell me or can send a PM
post #118 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C View Post
If you think this is a conspiracy theory, maybe you could explain to me why my bc says "Canada Bank Note."
From wikipedia:

The Canadian Bank Note Company is responsible for printing the paper currency of Canada. Formerly named the British North American Bank Note Company, it also prints and provides document reading systems for identification cards, lottery tickets, stamps and notes for other countries, and many other security-conscious printing-related services. They are well known for their passports, driver's licenses, and other important documents for various nations and jurisdictions around the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Bank_Note_Company
post #119 of 218
Yes it is for security printing. It is not currency.
post #120 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by siennasmom View Post
From wikipedia:

The Canadian Bank Note Company is responsible for printing the paper currency of Canada. Formerly named the British North American Bank Note Company, it also prints and provides document reading systems for identification cards, lottery tickets, stamps and notes for other countries, and many other security-conscious printing-related services. They are well known for their passports, driver's licenses, and other important documents for various nations and jurisdictions around the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Bank_Note_Company
I do think it is rather clear that it says 'Canada Bank Note' because it was printed by the "Canadian Bank Note Company." I am also sure that I didn't ask because I did not make that connection.

...I am sure that it is done this way for my protection; the government has my best interests at heart and the fact that I could be fined $50,000 for not registering a birth and that I could be put in jail for making my own system of record-keeping that involves births and deaths is probably just in case there is some wide-spread interest in doing so that could cause a monumental disaster, and not at all to keep me from having ultimate authority in my own life and that of my children. I am sure that these legislations are in place without there ever being any intent to enforce them...

My 'why' was intended to provoke philosophical examination. Clearly I wouldn't have brought it up if my bc had "Printed by the Local Variety Store" or even "Queen's Printer" on it, which by the way, is our official document publisher, so that it was done by the publisher of 'notes' (which are promisory in nature, not titular), is, imo, cause for reflection at the very least.

ETA: I know that most just pass over words like 'jurisdiction', 'licence', 'permit' and the like. These words have meaning and simply implying that a 'registration' (another word that means something other than 'record', which is why it is used instead) is so that I can obtain licences and permits is somewhat circular or redundant, and it takes knowledge to clear that up. I have no desire to be licenced or permitted or within the jurisdiction of any 'official' or 'legislation' (another one of those words); it's all the same thing. It's like saying I need to drink water because I need to drink water.
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