Choosing not to get a birth certificate at all... - Page 7

[Aurora]

Originally Posted by StrongBeliever

All of that being said... I really does make me happy to see that some mothers have been able to take good away from this thread. I think it may be worth it to start another thread for those interested in pursuing life without documents for their children, so that we can all speak openly without having to worry about defending ourselves. Let me know what you all think.

I would love to have another thread.

[2bluefish]

I would too - there are lot's of interesting things to discuss without having to skip past the multiple objector posts. I don't remember anyone *ever* asking if it was "alright" to do without a birth certificate?

I was watching "Hotel Rawanda" last night, and it really made me shudder when he was asked to show his documents and simple stamp on the paper determined if he would be shot on the spot of not! We think it will never happen here - it happened in Germany...

I was very insulted that I had to seek permission from the state to get married legally. I handled that irritation by recognizing that marriage is an institution of multiple layers - their is the spiritual union, but it is also a legal union. I was interested in forming both.

[mwherbs]

we underwent one revamp of birthcert laws and undergoing more- there is a move to standardized- between states-- in any case delayed here is filling out forms "right now" up to the age of 14 but will be a court case in the near future- for those considering doing delayed certs start looking at your legislative calendars and see if they are slated to be changed or if they just met and went over the changes recently.

[siennasmom]

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

My 'why' was intended to provoke philosophical examination. Clearly I wouldn't have brought it up if my bc had "Printed by the Local Variety Store" or even "Queen's Printer" on it, which by the way, is our official document publisher, so that it was done by the publisher of 'notes' (which are promisory in nature, not titular), is, imo, cause for reflection at the very least.

You provoked some examination in me. For example, your post made it sound like Canada believes that either people or their birth certificates are legal tender. That sounded weird to me, so I looked it up and that turned out not to be true. I'm sure there were other people who were confused as well, so hopefully my post cleared things up for them a little.

[saskiaofthewoods]

Wow, I did not check this thread for a while and now I see that I missed a lot....

I must say though that I can totally understand it if someone does not trust this government. I do not. But I still need this damn BC.

Anyway, I guess everybody has to make a choice that is best for them.

So good luck for all of you!

Saskia

PS: A funny story about the terrorist thing. When I came here, I had to go through all the check ups to get a greencard. Since September 11 the regulations are more strict. So when I went to the American embassey (?) they asked me, if I would want to apply for an American passport as well. I said NO. Mistake number 1 . I said I am very happy with my German one and I would not want to live in the States forever. They were not happy about it. Later they told me I would have to come back in for another interview. I had to take another day off, spend a lot of money on gas and drive all the way to Frankfurt for this interview. They said "You understand that we need to be careful, right?" Then they asked me "Are you a terrorist? Do you help any terrorist? Are you planning on attacking the United States of America?" My husband is a soldier, that is the only reason I needed the greencard anyway. I answered "You had me drive all the way up here to ask me something as stupid as this? Really, if anyone would be a terrorist, do you think they would be actually stupid enough to tell you?" Well, I had to sign that I am not a terrorist and I got my greencard.

When we flew here I ordered special food on the plane, since I am a vegetarian and do not eat meat or fish. They wrote down that I would not want to eat the pork that was on the normal list and when we landed I actually had to answer some more questions like "Are you a muslim? Why are you comming here?" I said "Well, my husband got stationed here. It is not like I had a choice." They really had the nerve to ask me if I married him because he was a soldier. When I married him he was not! He got out of the Army before I met him and got back in way later, after our wedding. If he would have been in the Army, I would not have married him. And they ask me something like that?

I got mad and told them that I married my husband because I love him and that I gave up my job and living with my family, which is extremly hard for me, just to be with him. I thought it was so unfair of them to ask me stuff like that.

They just said "But you do understand that we need to be safe. You did not want to eat the pork."

GOSH, I never ate any meat, not even as a baby. Does that make me more dangerous? Now I think it is funny when I look back. But it was really really stupid.

[StrongBeliever]

Weekends are busy for me, so just a moment in between stuff to say again how great it is for me to see interest in such an important subject! So many have given valuable input... Thank you all so much.

PreggieUBA2C... I was thinking the same thing today... Where to go with our new thread? Bryony made a good point that redundant question posts are impeding the learning process for those who might what to know more... I think a "support only" thread is definitely in order.

Ahh! I have so much I want to say! Tomorrow!

[AugustineM]

[Beakybird]

I just wanted to mention something that my husband mentioned to me. If you work for the government in any way or haul any kind of hazardous materials (as my husband does) you have to have a SSN and a birth certificate. So our livelyhood depends on it. As much as I hate the thought of being tracked at all, it is a part of living in our society.

Rebecca

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by siennasmom

You provoked some examination in me. For example, your post made it sound like Canada believes that either people or their birth certificates are legal tender. That sounded weird to me, so I looked it up and that turned out not to be true. I'm sure there were other people who were confused as well, so hopefully my post cleared things up for them a little.

I do know there are a many who are confused (umm, and I don't represent Canada...) and I am sure that Wikipedia did not address the concept of legal tender. Whether or not my BC is legal tender is dependent upon a gov't decree or contract that forces its acceptance in the payment of debt. I believe that this has already been done and continues to be done in the global economy. You will have to dig much deeper into world economics to begin to understand this; doubtful Wikipedia will be of any help in that since it is a compilation encyclopedia that those who have been heavily indoctrinated with precisely the lie we are discussing here co-author. Can you imagine if I tried to contribute? Edit, edit, edit, for sure!

As a Canada Bank Note, my birth certificate is not just one of the security-printed documents mentioned in the Wikipedia paragraph, but a promisory note, which is what a bank note is and what our paper or fiat currency is and if it is a 'note' and not just a document (such as all publications and documents of the Queen's Printer), then there must be an actual tangible, tradable commodity that it promises in exchange for whatever is being offered.

It used to be that notes were used as promisory for gold bars held in the reserve because it was easier than carrying those around and exchanging gold bars for a bag of carrots. We no longer have gold to back the dollar notes we exchange for real goods (because both Canada and the United States are actually bankrupt) , and my birth certificate says on it that it is a note, a BANK note.

If anyone can decipher the meaning in this, then the Wikipedia paragraph didn't clear anything up at all because it simply stated that that notes and some secure documents are printed by the canadian bank note company. What exactly do you think that clears up? What do you think 'legal tender' is? For fun, maybe you could call a bank and ask them what the definition of 'money' is. The Bank of Canada defines money as, and I'm paraphrasing here, anything that they deem to be so (see below- highlighting mine). Funny. Back to the 'Canada Bank Note' on my birth certificate- the promisory for the flesh and blood woman whose lifetime of labour and child-rearing is valuable in a way that most are unaware is possible and happening right now.

Taken from: http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/review...5/djoudad.html

Creation of the Narrow Monetary Aggregates in Canada

There are many ways to aggregate various financial assets and money stocks to represent the supply of money. Economists generally aggregate money using two approaches (Laidler 1969). The first approach is to group those monetary assets that most closely represent some underlying definition of money, such as a medium of exchange or a store of value. The second approach is to define money as an aggregation of financial assets that have the most significant empirical relationship with certain macroeconomic variables, such as real output and inflation. However, no single method of monetary aggregation has been universally accepted, because there is no simple "one size fits all" approach to deal with the numerous economic concepts of money (Laidler 1999). As White (1976, 49) remarked, "the answer to . . . the related choice between alternative money definitions [is] based on the usefulness of the various aggregates for policy purposes."


If CAN and the USA corporations still had gold to count on an abacus, there would be no attempt to define the value of 'money'- we would still be defining the value of gold according to a much broader spectrum of global distribution, not for national 'POLICY PURPOSES'!

Who sets up a promisory without ever intending to collect the goods attached to it? Who produces a promisory note without any intention of making it legal tender? Are you then fine with accepting so-called counterfeit money? It's just as much not legal tender as you think my birth certificate is, but the bc seems an acceptable 'registration' of my 'person' to you, so...

Do you think this was a simple and accidental publishing typo?

[PreggieUBA2C]

Here is a decent summary of the accepted definitions of 'legal tender' in various nations:

http://www.answers.com/topic/legal-tender

[PreggieUBA2C]

Possible Forum?

Activism- War and Politics?

Since this will absolutely have to include a discussion of politics and (personal and international) war of sorts, maybe this is the right place?

[bryonyvaughn]

Originally Posted by izobelle
You CAN get around not having a birth certificate, if you have enough other supporting information (from the link kindly supplied above):

" As many of the following as possible:

* Baptismal certificate
* Hospital birth certificate
* Census record
* Early school record
* Family bible record
* Doctor's record of post-natal care...

Originally Posted by JesseMomme

Here is where I'd run into more problems...
We're not religious
No hospital record after a UC unless you transfer
The census hasn't come around that I know of
My children did not go to early school (only ds2 went to pre-k at 4/5yrs)
No bible, again not religious
Only ds3 saw a Dr 5 days to a week postpartum, just because CPS was on our rear ends

Obviously I don't have this quoting thing down but JesseMomme replied to izobelle's list.

You don't have to be religious to have a baptismal record. You can buy the blank forms at Christian book stores or do a google search and print one you've found online. You can baptize your child in the name of whatever God(dess) or character trait or social value you choose.

Whether or not you're religious you can by a Bible and enter marriages, births, and deaths.

Michigan is one of the (if not THE) easiest states to homeschool. Even in states with lots of bureaucratic requirements for homeschoolers, anyone can homeschool pre-school and make their own record. It looks more professional if you name your school "______ Academy" and have it signed by the director rather than "Smith's Homeschool" signed by mom.

I because of a history of much spinal trauma, I always visit the chiropractor a few days after giving birth. The chiro with start an official record and has sent a letter on my child's behalf to the SSA. I've done this also with naturopaths. Suprisingly I've gotten more flack about the chiropractor not being a "real doctor" than I have the naturopaths. I think it's because their eyes scan over ND and their brain registers MD.

One time we were stuck with a particularly crusty SSA clerk wanting more forms of ID. We went across the street to the public library and applied for a library card for our 10 day old. We got the card only after the librarian lectured us that getting the card in the child's name (rather than as a subaccount on one of our cards) meant if we called in asking what books were checked out on our child's account they were morally obliged to withhold the information from us. She was a very, oh... let us say, a very PIOUS librarian.

~BV

[siennasmom]

Preggie, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. I've Googled. I found one page that said that some guy in Michigan got five of his kids taken away by CPS but one was returned because he didn't have a birth certificate and therefore didn't belong to the government. I find that completely nonsensical. If you think not having a birth certificate means the government won't "own" you, I think you're being naive. In the US, the government can lock people up and throw away the key in contravention of law and our very founding principles. They'll do what they want to do whether or not you have a particular piece of paper. I think you're much more likely to encounter problems from not having a BC than you are to thwart problems by not having one, but that's just me.

[rajahkat]

Possible Forum?
Activism- War and Politics?

Since this will absolutely have to include a discussion of politics and (personal and international) war of sorts, maybe this is the right place?

Is this already a forum or are you talking about starting a new one?

Just fascinating discussion ladies, thank you so much! I've backed off from participating, because I hate getting all riled about stuff and am much happier to sit back and bask in my new pregnancy right now.

But if the discussion moves, post a link so I don't miss it!!

Kat:

[StrongBeliever]

Siennasmom... One can never be completely sure that they are safe from anything. For me the point in not getting a BC, regardless of whether or not the government gives a damn, is that it is the absolute most I can do. In my eyes, I'd rather do something to try than to throw up my hands and say it is hopeless. I can't speak for what it boils down to in Canada, but here in America not getting a birth certificate is a step towards saying that the only law I hold supreme is the Natural Law afforded us in the Declaration of Independance.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Summing it up, that as long as my child lives a life that doesn't harm anyone or disrupt anyones else's pursuit of life liberty and happiness, that they are free from government interference... Furthermore....


—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

I think it is my duty as a PATRIOTIC AMERICAN, someone who stands for WHAT OUR COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON, to do what I feel is right to quell the power of a government that has overstepped it's bounds and become a hideous and evil shadow of what it was meant to be. It's our job to instill change when we think things have gone wrong. To me, this seems like a good place to start, putting a buffer between the people most precious to me and the monster that needs to be battled. Should the government try to whisk my children away, I at least have the Declaration of Independence on my side which no one can deny, rather than the multitude of ineffectual statutes designed only to work FOR government.

As for a place to start our new thread, I think the Finding Your Tribe might be a good place, though I will want to ask a mod first. Activism would also be a good place... I can say right this moment that I not only want to find like minds and get support, but I want to CHANGE THINGS. You might call me an activist.

[StrongBeliever]

*happy high*... Do I ever love the Declaration! Reading over it again after pulling my quotes, it is so comforting, and so enlightening. The Declaration is what it's all about folks! If you have any questions whatsoever about why it is so important to NOT go with the flow of our current government, then you only need read our Declaration of Independence.

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by siennasmom

Preggie, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. I've Googled. I found one page that said that some guy in Michigan got five of his kids taken away by CPS but one was returned because he didn't have a birth certificate and therefore didn't belong to the government. I find that completely nonsensical. If you think not having a birth certificate means the government won't "own" you, I think you're being naive. In the US, the government can lock people up and throw away the key in contravention of law and our very founding principles. They'll do what they want to do whether or not you have a particular piece of paper. I think you're much more likely to encounter problems from not having a BC than you are to thwart problems by not having one, but that's just me.

If you read my posts, you will have already read that I do have BCs for our children specifically because the gov't DOES violate the rights of the human being to live as sovereign. In my previous posts, I have included information concerning the gov't's perpetration of a registration system specifically for its own economic gain and my loss of authority in my life, family and belongings amongst other things, and also that, In Canada, a Supreme Court Justice has set a precedent merging both the 'legal person' and the 'natural person' who were previously distinct from one another, that we have no recognised UCC, and SOoooo, choosing to not have a BC is just as dangerous as having one, but for different reasons. Perhaps you will go back and re-read or read for the first time my posts, which I think have been reasonably clear.

It is clear that to not register the births of our dc here would be hazardous, which is why I wrote that we have chosen alternate methods for preparing to live autonomously that do not include removal of ourselves from the system, as that is not possible any longer. Currently the fine for not registering a birth within 30 days is up to $50,000 (for the merged 'person'- legal or natural) and to start my own system of registration, according to the Vital Statistics Act of Canada is punishable by imprisonment.

I believe the gov't has engineered language such that we have tacitly accepted the merger of the corporate entity begun with what looks like our names at birth (strawman or dummy), and the natural human being, the one that is flesh and blood. Most would not hesitate to call themselves 'tax-payers', 'drivers', 'citizens' or 'residents', etc... These titles used to be distinct from the natural person because it is against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to compel a natural man to action (statutes, legislation and acts compel action; the law simply punishes)- this compulsion is what we have previously recognised and called 'slavery' but now affectionately term 'duty.' The majority of this engineering was done before I was born, and now it is too late for me to act according to my Human Rights, so my family has found other ways to live that do not endanger the sanctity of our home. I don't see what is 'naive' about that.

I think that most would need more than an hour or two to begin to learn how to navigate through gov't documentation and all of the Acts, including the Interpretation Act, (so-called) Common Law, Civil 'Law', statutes and legislations, accepted definitons according to the various Acts, precedent-setting court cases, IMF and world economic trends as recorded and reported by the nations and their master (the IMF), and also the plethora of misinformation on this very broad topic. Perhaps you would consider at least making a solid attempt before assuming that you're 'googling' during the past few hours would render you capable of refuting what has been read and understood by many already, from whom you might be able to learn something new.

It is ironic that you assume that I am naive given that not only have I spent years of my life thinking what you are presenting here (I would be confident to guess that most did at one point; we were all taught the same things- I have not just arrived from another planet...), but have surpassed that with a more indepth and accurate understanding of what is now and what has taken place. I may be naive in the grand scheme of things, but I don't think that I would qualify according to your implied definition, at least, for that descriptor, nor do I think you are particularly qualified to assess my understanding at this point.

Please feel free to either look further into this, or to dismiss it at your leisure; if you dismiss it, then why continue to impede an otherwise potentially engaging discussion? I do hope, however, for your sake, that you will continue instead to research and learn where you stand concerning your innate and inalienable right to freedom.

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by rajahkat

Possible Forum?
Activism- War and Politics?

Since this will absolutely have to include a discussion of politics and (personal and international) war of sorts, maybe this is the right place?

Is this already a forum or are you talking about starting a new one?

It is already there. Scroll down to Natural Family Living; it's the first section.

I think I should make some popcorn too; this topic sort of gets my ire up BUT I do think its worth discussing, even if I can no longer act; at least I know what my options are...

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by StrongBeliever

*happy high*... Do I ever love the Declaration! Reading over it again after pulling my quotes, it is so comforting, and so enlightening. The Declaration is what it's all about folks! If you have any questions whatsoever about why it is so important to NOT go with the flow of our current government, then you only need read our Declaration of Independence.

Aah, StrongBeliever, I'm jealous. I wish we had one of those. We have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms- not nearly as useful or coherent as the Declaration. Sigh.

If you want to feel sorry for us here in Canada, here's the link: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html

[wannabe]

So if all you need to get US citizenship is a fake baptismal record, then why are there any illegal aliens?

I posted that information specifically to Dana's claim about NY state documentation. To get a marriage license in NY the DL doesn't have to be from NY. You can get an employment photo ID without a SSN or b/c. You can make one yourself easily or you can get one from many of the companies that don't require them. Some colleges have the same IDs for employees, students, and athletic club member.

But to get any driver's licence you need ID, to get a job you need a SSN or ITIN (both of which need birth cert/passport).