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Choosing not to get a birth certificate at all... - Page 8

post #141 of 218
I did not want to read all 7 pages of this thread but I do want to answer the orginal question. The question about anyone having personal experience about NOT having a BC.

My DH did not have an "offical" BC until he was 17. His parents lived completly off the grid. They did not even have an address (lived in a traveling trailer). DH was born at "home" and still has never seen a MD. His parents made him a birth announcement and called it a BC. He had a great childhood and life was good. Then he turned 16 and wanted to drive a car legally so he could drive into town. He went to the DMV with his homemade BC, baptism records, and ciro records. He was refused a DL. It then took him over a year to get a "delayed certificate of birth". He was very angry with his parents (teenage hormones) for making him have to wait another year for a small bit of freedom. He viewed it as control and it did damage their relationship.

I do not want to get into a mud slingin' contest, I just want to share DH's story with the OP. Thanks, J
post #142 of 218
I have a question. Why would someone who is so opposed to getting a birth certificate want to get a proper marriage certificate? I mean why not just live married, and screw what they state says?

Or did you want to get the legal benefits? There's no free lunch. If you want the benefits of living in a state society, you have to play by the rules. I fully respect people who opt out, I really do. But you can't opt out of obligations while opting in for rights. It's an exchange.
post #143 of 218
Thread Starter 
Well, God bless America... At least we Americans, for the time being, still have options. I think if we'd like to hang on to them though, it's important that we all be educated and willing to act on that education. This thread has evolved beyond what it started out as... Really, I don't think there is any way that it couldn't considering the nature of the topic.

Thanks Veggijessie for sharing your DH's experience. I have a birth certificate, but I grew up very "outside" of the mainstream as well. When I was old enough to want to participate in the world I had a lot of anger and issues with my parents. What sixteen year old doesn't? For those of us with alternative-minded parents, it's over our freedom... We were taught to be independent and strong, and we want no one controlling or impeding our lives. It took me four years of doing what I damn well please, observing the world and learning that my parents were right, before I finally came to thank them. Of course I don't expect my children to fall over themselves to thank me for what I am doing, but I know that if children are never given the chance to think outside the box, they never will. I'd much rather have my child angry at me for valid reasons, than to think I am evil incarnate for not buying them a cell-phone or paying for their insurance or getting them their own charge card. Your DH is a product of his parents... He wouldn't be who he is today without them. Would you be with him is he had been raised like the "typical" American child is being raised? The way I choose to raise my children will effect the rest of their lives... Not just until they are old enough by law to get away from me. At the risk of sounding like an overbearing mother(have I gone there already? *haha*), I hope for my son to find a girl who thinks outside the box.

Izobelle... I'm wondering who your question is addressed to? I'll give you my input. My DP and I want to get "married". Do I want a marriage license? Heck no! Opting out of obligations in exchange for rights? Now that is silly. It is my natural-born, God-given right do be with whomever I choose, and it is our right as a couple to interact however we wish, and in the event of something bad happening, it is our God-given right to choose how things will play out. Since when am I obligated to do anything in order for those things to be true? Why should paying for a piece of paper make our union any more real? *shudder* Ack! "Legal benefits"... The threatening tone of that phrase(not that you intended it to sound that way) is disgusting. That so many people are afraid of their choices not being taken seriously, that they will do anything they are told to get the recognition they are naturally entitled to. I won't have a fear-based relationship... I put my faith in my partner and our love, not in a piece of paper that is supposed to make everything okay. That being said, I know that there is "no free lunch". Something bad could happen, and without a "legal"(*gag*) representation of our union either of us could get screwed. It is my understanding that signed "contracts" between individuals stand up in court(I'm not positive of this, I ought to be doing more research before I say this, but what the heck, I wanna say it now)... I would think that if any two people wanted to be together without state interference and yet still protect their assets, they could simply sign something stating that they have committed their lives to each other and should something go wrong A, B, and C is the way it ought to be, maybe with a witness or two. That might not work in all situations, but I believe it would work in most.

In that vein... I think it is entirely possible for ANY PERSON to function in our current society without having to pander to it's demands. But first that person has to make the choice and commit to learning what it takes to do so. I can see how that may not be appealing to some... Sad truth is that most people are happy to go through life knowing just enough to keep food in their faces and a roof over their head, not caring that the food is trash and they will slave the rest of their lives for that cookie cutter box they rest their heads in. They want things to be EASY. They don't want to have to TRY or to exert themselves in anyway beyond what the bare minimum REQUIRED of them. They marvel at people who are rich and successful, but won't do what it takes... HARD WORK AND MUCH LEARNING... to be successful. Anything worth doing takes effort, and is a challenge. No mighty goal can be reached without some bumps in the road, without hassle. If I want to live outside the box, and teach my children that they can too, I will have to bust my a** every day for the rest of my life... But I will be happy because I will BE DOING WHAT I WANT, WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE TRULY RIGHT FOR ME AND MINE. More important than that, I'll be setting an example for my children.
post #144 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
....But to get any driver's licence you need ID, to get a job you need a SSN or ITIN (both of which need birth cert/passport).
DL ID requirements vary state by state.

Many employees don't require SSN or ITIN. Have you heard about big raids rounding up hundreds of undocumented workers? One way some employees try to limit their liability (as well as tax burden) is to "hire" employees as independent contractors under I-9s (or is it 1099s. It's been over a decade since I've had a paid job.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by izobelle View Post
I have a question. Why would someone who is so opposed to getting a birth certificate want to get a proper marriage certificate? I mean why not just live married, and screw what they state says?

Or did you want to get the legal benefits? There's no free lunch. If you want the benefits of living in a state society, you have to play by the rules. I fully respect people who opt out, I really do. But you can't opt out of obligations while opting in for rights. It's an exchange.
The only marriage license posts I've noticed were from pro-b/c folks saying, "But then you can't A, but then you can't B, but then you can't C!" If you find a post someone opposed to b/c for her child and wanting a marriage license for herself, I suggest to quote the post and ask the person her reasons directly.

~BV
post #145 of 218
There were a couple of people back there discussing how to get a marriage certificate without having a birth certificate. I just don't see the point in that.

However, perhaps they were just trying to make a point and not actually get a marriage license without a birth certificate.

"Opting out of obligations in exchange for rights? Now that is silly. It is my natural-born, God-given right do be with whomever I choose, and it is our right as a couple to interact however we wish, and in the event of something bad happening, it is our God-given right to choose how things will play out. Since when am I obligated to do anything in order for those things to be true?"

I think there has been a misunderstanding, Strong Believer. I'm not saying that a person is obligated to get a piece of paper for the right of getting married. I'm saying that if a person wants the benefits of the paper, she has to get the paper. So, like, if you want to get the legal benefits of being married (which are benefits that are generally only possible when society is organized) then you have to participate in that manner of organization.

This came from my understanding that there were people who were suggesting that it was possible to get a marriage certificate without getting a birth certificate, to which I say, why on earth would you want to do that, if not for the benefits (tax-wise, presumably? staying at hotels together?) it confers.

But if there is nobody actually defending that position or suggesting that that is something they would want to do, well then I guess there's no point in discussing it further.
post #146 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by izobelle View Post
...I think there has been a misunderstanding, Strong Believer. I'm not saying that a person is obligated to get a piece of paper for the right of getting married. I'm saying that if a person wants the benefits of the paper, she has to get the paper. So, like, if you want to get the legal benefits of being married (which are benefits that are generally only possible when society is organized) then you have to participate in that manner of organization.
So you don't take my response the wrong way, Izobelle, I want you to know I think your point (which I bolded) is completely reasonable. Now putting reasonableness aside, I'm going to talk about the law.

Non-licensed partners' ability to get the benefits awarded "legally" married couples differs state by state. Michigan, where I live, does not have "common law" marriage. Like all other states it does recognized marriages established in other states so a couple with a common law marriage established in another state could, move to Michigan, split up, and be forced to divorce in Michigan courts for the ex-partners to be free to remarry. (Personally I think the states accepting marriages established in other states will end up before the Supreme Court due to anti-same sex marriage constitutional amendments. Any ruling could impact common-law marriages between states.) Just so no one gets unnecessarily spooked, in no state (or DC) can you find yourself inadvertently married due to living together for seven years.

~BV
post #147 of 218
for my family my grandparents are the ones who did not have birth certificates and my grandma was born in Quebec, because my great-grandparents were traveling folks - and they traveled around in a covered wagon -she was born on the road in 1894 and grandpa 1880 . I was an adult and they were still fighting with some agencies for things like grandpa was a Spanish America War vet and they were not giving him vet's rights... and even US citizenship for grandma-- so it was all fine and well when they were young- but as they were older they did need things like social security because they were poor folk and because even if they paid for their land - there are taxes... and food costs and even tough they could live with out power or running water they actually liked having those luxuries-
our youngest son even though we crossed all the t's and dotted all the i's it took us 4 years to get his birth cert-- and in one of the years it had become manditory to get a tax refund to have a ss number- which they let go but sent us a letter saying that if we did not send in a ss number that he would be taken from our exemptions-- now maybe there are people who live fine sans these things but at the time we were living in a rental trailer with one car, one income and buying used tires one at a time- that money every penny of it was of use to us--- I have family in the NW and there is quite a clutch of Constitutionalists there, we also have family friends who have been in jail because of income tax evasion-- people who felt it was their constitutional right to not pay taxes-- the organizations they were associated with evaporated when trouble came...
post #148 of 218
"Like all other states it does recognized marriages established in other states so a couple with a common law marriage established in another state could, move to Michigan, split up, and be forced to divorce in Michigan courts for the ex-partners to be free to remarry. (Personally I think the states accepting marriages established in other states will end up before the Supreme Court due to anti-same sex marriage constitutional amendments. Any ruling could impact common-law marriages between states.)"

I'm afraid I don't know much about common-law marriage, but suppose you want to get the marriage benefits. Don't you technically need to get that marriage recognized somehow, or is the whole point that you don't need a piece of paper for that, that when the IRS comes to audit you, all you need are the testimonies of the people who know you've been living as a married couple for so many years, etc.?

Still, wouldn't it just be easier to get the piece of paper and have it done with?

Again, I totally understand people who want to live free, but if you ever will want to get into the system, you're not going to regret having an SSN.

I personally do not feel oppressed by a piece of paper.
post #149 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by izobelle View Post
...I'm afraid I don't know much about common-law marriage, but suppose you want to get the marriage benefits. Don't you technically need to get that marriage recognized somehow, or is the whole point that you don't need a piece of paper for that, that when the IRS comes to audit you, all you need are the testimonies of the people who know you've been living as a married couple for so many years, etc.?
Common law marriages are a bit of a throw back to our country's time of westward expansion when someone might live years without seeing a justice of the peace for years. There are many types signs that taken together over time establish a couple's intent to live as husband and wife. One off these can be changing last names and another can be filing takes as a married couple. Common law marriage isn't something people are going to accidentally stumble into. Due to grandfather clauses only ten states will recognize newly established common law marriages. You can learn more on the subject by googling "common law marriage"+states .
Quote:
Still, wouldn't it just be easier to get the piece of paper and have it done with?
I have friends who were partnered in a lifelong commitment for many years before "caving" (from their perspectives) and getting the license and a civil or spiritual ceremony. One couple did it to keep the family together when one partner accepted an overseas professorship. Another did it after consulting with family and estate lawyers and CPAs about the potential repercussions of a partner death on their family and businesses.

I think the ones most knowledgeable about how much easier it would be to sign a piece of paper and be done with it are those working for same-sex marriage. They know how difficult it can be to legally establish some of the benefits of marriage and how utterly impossible it is to establish others

Quote:
Again, I totally understand people who want to live free, but if you ever will want to get into the system, you're not going to regret having an SSN.

I personally do not feel oppressed by a piece of paper.
I don't feel oppressed by most pieces of paper. A few can be a little tricky though.

~BV
post #150 of 218
Well, people working for same-sex marriage status are in a different position! I do not envy them. They are working against a system that is stacked against them. I don't want to derail this thread, so I won't say any more than I don't think that's a relevant example for the het couples that want to get a certificate.
post #151 of 218
You can find an overview of state driver's licence requirements here http://www.nilc.org/immspbs/DLs/stat...2007-01-31.pdf

Of the 8 states which don't require proof of citizenship or valid visa, New Mexico, Michigan, Oregon and Hawaii will let you use an expired driver's licence from another state, Washington has loose-ish rules - you could probably do it with high school attendance, yearbook, transcripts, etc. Maryland lets you use one of those baptismal certificates, and I can't find info on Maine. But that's until the Real ID Act is implemented, of course. Yes, I'm bored, what of it?

BV - it hadn't occurred to me that my child would be OK with a minimum wage job at DQ her whole life.

What I would really like an answer to is my question about citizenship. You're all quoting these lofty ideals about the constitution, etc, etc. But they only apply to citizens, and your child may well not be able to prove citizenship.
post #152 of 218
I've been reading this with great interest because I'd never really considered how life would be different without official identification papers. Just checked a website for the US government regarding passports & it gives this info:

In addition to the completed application form, you will be required to provide the following documentation:

* Proof of U.S. citizenship (show one of the following documents):
o Certified copy of your birth certificate.
o Naturalization certificate (if born outside the United States).
o Certificate of citizenship.
o Consular report of birth abroad (if your parents were U.S. citizens).
o Your expired passport.
* Proof of identity. A driver's license or old passport will fulfill this requirement.
* Two identical photographs.

I don't see any way you could avoid producing a birth certificate & get a passport from the way this is worded. If you never want to travel, of course this won't be a problem.

You have to have ID & a SSN to get a driver's license in this state. The official website says there are primary, secondary & supporting documents needed to get a valid license but that personnel on the site will determine which supporting documents are acceptable & which aren't. I also don't know anyone who has worked for any real job hired without showing their original SS card. Day labor, baby sitting may be exceptions but it is generally a requirement most places. Again, if you don't want to drive or be employed none of this will be an issue.
post #153 of 218
So I do know and have known undocumented immigrants with jobs- very very low paying hard work jobs- I want to know someone who owns their own home and has a good standard of living that either does not have a SS# or a forged one
post #154 of 218
Thread Starter 
There seems to be this huge focus on "jobs". "Your child can never work" "They won't be able to get a real job" "If they want to be employed they'll have to have it"... There are many ways to make a living that have absolutely nothing to do with anyone employing you. How many people with a "job" actually find it meaningful or fulfilling? There are other ways to go about life.
post #155 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongBeliever View Post
There seems to be this huge focus on "jobs". "Your child can never work" "They won't be able to get a real job" "If they want to be employed they'll have to have it"... There are many ways to make a living that have absolutely nothing to do with anyone employing you. How many people with a "job" actually find it meaningful or fulfilling? There are other ways to go about life.
Haven't posted in over a year and coming out of lurker mode for this one...

While I agree with your reasons, and intentionally live as 'off-the-grid and under the radar' as possible I must point out that unless you are willing to be a 'squatter' on someone else's land and practice things like guerilla gardening you WILL be on the governments radar. Even if you can afford to own a home outright, whether it's strawbale, earth-berm or whatever, you WILL be required to pay taxes on it. We own our home free and clear but the tax man comes every January.

The government will know you exist. Period. There is no way to be completely invisible to the government due to current technology and it will only get worse. Unless we are struck w/a major, catastrophic, EMP type attack that takes us back to the dark ages, you will be tracked.

Also, don't discount that your neighbors will turn you in when they find out that giving information on you will give them more gas and food rations.

Seriously, I am about as 'conspicracy' minded as they come and I cannot stand our government, nor the thought of my sons(all four of them)being pressed into military service for this ungodly government BUT we are WAY past the point of anonymity.

While I understand your reasons completely I think it's naive to think that a BC will make much of a difference when it comes to government interference.

Also, as the parent of two teenagers I cannot imagine life w/out BC. We homeschool and do not use MD's but there are other situations where they are needed. My kids are old enough to travel w/out me now and drive. While I could allow them to drive illegally, I consider that needlessly reckless. It's bad enough if my homeschooled daughter gets pulled over during 'daytime curfew' but if she did not have a legal DL we would be up the creek. They would not be able to fly to visit their out of state friends and family.

There are PRACTICAL reasons to have a BC. If practicality is not enough for you then that's fine. Raising children is a short season of our lives that passes very quickly and you may well pay dearly for your currently held convictions in 15 years. Of course, I may pay for mine, too.

If what you are afraid of happens then I seriously doubt your children's records will be that much of an issue. You will be struggling for your very existence, for food and clean water, shelter and safety.

Oh, and I'm not sure who posted about chips in vax but that technology has been around for at least ten years and could be put into use at any time w/out our knowledge. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, doesn't it?
post #156 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwherbs View Post
So I do know and have known undocumented immigrants with jobs- very very low paying hard work jobs- I want to know someone who owns their own home and has a good standard of living that either does not have a SS# or a forged one
A good question. I think it would be difficult. But then it depends on your view of home and your view of "standard of living."

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongBeliever View Post
There seems to be this huge focus on "jobs". "Your child can never work" "They won't be able to get a real job" "If they want to be employed they'll have to have it"... There are many ways to make a living that have absolutely nothing to do with anyone employing you. How many people with a "job" actually find it meaningful or fulfilling? There are other ways to go about life.
I actually know a lot of people (myself included) that have or have had jobs that they consider meaningful and fulfilling. Most of them are people who work in fields where they help others. Some are even (gasp) government jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Em T View Post

You have to have ID & a SSN to get a driver's license in this state. The official website says there are primary, secondary & supporting documents needed to get a valid license but that personnel on the site will determine which supporting documents are acceptable & which aren't. I also don't know anyone who has worked for any real job hired without showing their original SS card. Day labor, baby sitting may be exceptions but it is generally a requirement most places. Again, if you don't want to drive or be employed none of this will be an issue.
You could drive or work illegally, or never be employed and live homestead-style and be completely self-sufficient. But I think that would be hard if you never lived a life "on the grid" because most homestead operations require some kind of start up money, which would mean a job and bank account, unless you were to basically live on your parents' land your entire life and never "start up" yourself.

It's pretty easy to overanalyze all this, but it is interesting to think about the what-ifs.

We just moved to AK and are wanting to live off the grid as much as possible, but to me that is totally different than not getting a bc. I can't really imagine why not to have one, but I think it's just such a different mentality that it's hard for some of us to understand.
post #157 of 218
in AK to do subsistence hunting and fishing do you have to have ID? or register some way---
and I do understand what you are saying about quality of life- I grew up- in a style similar to my great grandparents- and spent most of my young years without tap water or electric-- we ate wild game, and wild plants - but now we all had hunting licenses and fishing licenses as soon as we were old enough to have one- poaching was just not something we were taught to do-
my family spent several years in AK but I didn't go too cold for me-

I know if you have enough money you set up land trusts- but changing land values has really seemed to force some land sales because keeping up with taxes is a real stress...
now I too am a bit of a anti-big brother person but also think overload them with info they won't be able to keep up- already the income tax records we need to keep are just 3 years back and not 7 like in the old days--
post #158 of 218
[QUOTE=mwherbs;8416577]in AK to do subsistence hunting and fishing do you have to have ID? or register some way---
QUOTE]

Oh yes, absolutely. You've got to have a license or you risk big time fines, even jail. To get the fishing/hunting license you need an ID of some kind. It may seem harsh or big-brotherish but look at what happened when people rampantly hunted and fished -- dessimation of fishing and wildlife stocks. AK has pretty strict wildlife management codes. Of course, that doesn't mean that people don't often sport/subsistence fish or hunt illegally (lots do), but you risk being caught by the department of fish and game, and depending on the offense the punishment can be harsh.

Oh, and funny, I grew up much the same way you did. In a small log cabin in AK with a wood burning stove, on my grandparent's homestead. We did have running water and electric but were nearly self-sufficient, especially in the summer. My family all had hunting and fishing licenses too, though, because my parents and family are extremely conservation-minded and believe in regulating fishing especially, siince for a long time we survived on income from commercial fishing.

Sorry, OP, kind of OT!!
post #159 of 218
one thing that no one has mentioned, is that we DO NOT know the future of our country, of our world, of our lives. In case no one has noticed, it seems that things are starting to go to hell in a handbasket. Look at our current government. Look at our earth being destroyed.

Who has any idea what will happen by the time said child might "need" a BC?

In 20 years time, it may be a moot point.

In the future, it may very well happen, that the government controls everything and anything, including our birth and parenting decisions. And the only way to avoid it, may be to live in an uncharted area, UC, and never register your children.

No one knows the future.

Just food for thought.
post #160 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongBeliever View Post
There seems to be this huge focus on "jobs". "Your child can never work" "They won't be able to get a real job" "If they want to be employed they'll have to have it"... There are many ways to make a living that have absolutely nothing to do with anyone employing you. How many people with a "job" actually find it meaningful or fulfilling? There are other ways to go about life.
For me the issue is that I want my child to have the choice in how they make their living, obtain their education, etc. Honestly, I could me a total live-off-the-grid type, HS and do my best to raise my family off of the gov't radar. What happens when this child grows up and rebels against the way she was raised (this happens all the time, with things like religion, career goals, etc) and decides that he/she wants to go to and Ivy league school, get a gov't job (everyone does not want to be self-employed), become a politian. It's THEIR choice. I feel that I would be limiting their choices or at least making things much more difficult for them. Of course my adult child could decide to register their birth at some later date. But I have spent twenty minutes on the NYC Vital Records site trying to figure out how one would go about it and haven't found out yet. Considering what they requires to make corrections on a BC, it would surely be a length and painful process.

I feel that I can parent however I want and still give my kids the option of : mainstream life if they choose to pursue it as adults.
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