Choosing not to get a birth certificate at all... - Page 3

[JesseMomme]

Well, for me and my family personally we:

Really need any money the gov't is willing to throw our way (tax refund, aid)

Really need insurance to cover the kids - ds1 and ds2 needed glasses plus they'll be seeing an opthomologist (sp?) next month, and I think ds3 is going to need glasses too, holy $$$$ we don't have....
- there's emergency ER visits which has happened to us in the past too. I can't afford out of pocket or even sliding scale for the natropath/homeopath of my choice, but take the kids to see a Dr about once a year (or less) to "cover our butts". Unfortunately that means a conventional Dr covered by Medicaid but what else can I do (but smile and nod ) - oh and dental visits too...and ds1 has an appt coming soon and I'm thinking of asking for a referral to an audiologist and a ped. gastroentologist.


We're not homeschoolers and I don't forsee doing that in the near future. (Open to the possibility should the need arise)


So far the only way we have been "tracked" by the gov't is those immunization registries...they just send you junk mail/propaganda and a reminder letter and we just throw those out.

However, this has been a really enlightening thread. Can someone explain more to me about this "delayed" birth certificate? I need to start working on some plan C's if my plan B doesn't work out

[bryonyvaughn]

The Fourteenth amendment guarantees your children citizenship regardless of your ever having filed a birth certificate on their behalf.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

That means not filing a birth certificate will not exempt your sons (and maybe daughters in the future) from registering with the Selective Service. Even Conscientious Objectors are obliged to register.

Originally Posted by mama in the forest

...This is just a very small example, but awhile back I received a call from the county nurse (sounds kind of scary - COUNTY NURSE ) wanting to know if a certain child of mine had completed their "immunizations". I don't vax, and my children are unschooled, so it was interesting to me that she not only had one of my child's birthdates, but also my phone number. Turns out they were making calls to everyone in the county with a certain aged child, to see if they were up to date on their vaccines. The child of mine in question, was born here in MI and was in their database. A little disconcerting to me, and somewhat an invasion of our privacy.

The federal government started providing funds for states to set up immunization registries in the mid 90s. Michigan was the first and started as an opt out system BUT they didn't tell parents the MI Childhood Immunization Registry (MCIR) existed for several years, let alone tell them know how to opt out of it. I only knew of it because I was active in vaccine education back then.

If your child is on the system you can't get him/her off BUT you can sign a form at your local health department for them to block the record. It will show a name, address, and birth date only. The vaccine portion will be completely blocked. This will prevent them from contacting you with reminders and keep any HCP from accessing your child's vaccine record.

One thing I learned was in the beginning they were sloppy in culling information from B/Cs. Because of that I'd recommend any parents first verify they actually have your child in the database, before signing a form to block the record. If your child is NOT on the database, signing the form will put your child on the database with a blocked recored. IME when ever I've talked to health department folks about this, while some thought it odd I wanted my children's records blocked, they all treated me professionally and respectfully. That was my experience in Isabella, Gratiot, and Ingham counties.

~BV

[lyttlewon]

Originally Posted by 2bluefish

So... *can* you get a driver's license without it? How do you vote without a driver's license?

*sigh* too bad ds got a b/c I could have kept him out of selective services - dh would say that is a horrible of me - but ugh, I'm so against the draft...

I don't have a drivers licence and I am registered to vote. I have state issued ID just no driving ability.

[CountryMom2e]

I would not recommend it. Without a birth certificate, you can't get a SSN or passport. Now you need a passport, even for children, to travel nearly anywhere outside of the US - soon Canada/Mexico will require a passport too. You need an SSN to declare your child as a dependent on your tax return, and to receive health insurance. You need an SSN later in life to get a job, open a bank or brokerage account, apply for credit, even sign up for a phone or cable TV.

It's the reality of the world we live in. Do the paperwork, get the cert.

[JesseMomme]

Originally Posted by lyttlewon

I don't have a drivers licence and I am registered to vote. I have state issued ID just no driving ability.

Oh yeah I totally forgot about that - me too! I do have to get a new state ID though b/c I moved last year. Add that to the never ending list of crap to do...

[ckhagen]

My family (parents, siblings) hasn't gone as far as to not get BCs, but the younger 4 do not have SSNs. They're just now reaching the ages of needing them and it's getting difficult. Mom is having a miserable time with it and has actually given up more than once and gone to try and get them. But, now that they're over 12 it's a little harder to get the SSNs. Not to mention the employees in the office are trying extremely hard to make it hell. At some point the held their BCs and have now lost them... ugh. Now she has to get new copies of the BCs just to start all over again. Of course my dad is not happy about her even trying to get them SSNs. She tried to get catastrophic health insurance after they had a catastrohpic car accident that ended up costing them half a million dollars in medical bills. They've never had health insurance, but that was a huge reality check. Well, she can't get that without them.

I can totally understand why someone would not want to get them. It's just such an issue of being between a rock and a hard place.

I think also that most people here who are saying that they need them for tax purposes are missing the point that IME most people who are going this far under the radar don't consider income taxes legal to begin with, so that's hardly an issue.

[bryonyvaughn]

Originally Posted by ckhagen

My family (parents, siblings) hasn't gone as far as to not get BCs, but the younger 4 do not have SSNs. They're just now reaching the ages of needing them and it's getting difficult. Mom is having a miserable time with it and has actually given up more than once and gone to try and get them. But, now that they're over 12 it's a little harder to get the SSNs. Not to mention the employees in the office are trying extremely hard to make it hell...

I expect that has more to do with changes in regulations (and especially attitudes) w/i the SSA the past several years. Homeland Security spending it's efforts annoying law abiding citizens. If going up the ladder doesn't get you far, I recommend getting your representative's office to advocate to the SSA on your siblings' behalf.

~BV

[Naless]

I just wanted to offer the perspective of the child. If for some reason as an adult your DC wanted to do things that require a birth certificate it will be hell trying to get it. My uncle lost his and tried to get it replaced and forwhater reason there was no record of it. It took him 6 years of jumping through hoops to get one and he was a working for the state of MI with a SS Card, DL, health insurance and all but could not prove he was born as both parents were deceased and the family members who raised him was also deceased. I can see forgoing the SSN but not the birth certificate because it is so much harder in the future to get one. JMHO

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by StrongBeliever

I don't have oodles of time to post right this moment, but I wanted to stop by and make it clear that there are MANY valid reasons to NOT have a BC for a child. BUT, it is a matter of personal belief and perception, and I can't expect everyone to believe them all let alone agree with them all. I'd be opening myself up to A LOT of persecution if I stated every reason I have for not wanting one. What matters most RIGHT NOW, is that my child doesn't need these things in the immediate future.

I hope you're not implying that anyone questioning why you don't want a bc for your kids would start persecuting you? That's really not *my* intent at all, mama. I have no interest - not to mention no ability - in persecuting anyone!

I guess I'm still just really unclear on what these "many valid reasons" might be. I honestly don't get it. So far, all I've really gotten from any of the answers on this thread is the vague desire not to be "tracked by the government." But what does this mean? I can see not having a SS#, difficult as that might be, if a person doesn't want to leave a record via employers, bank accounts, etc. But a birth certificate? How would that open a person up to being tracked? Why? And why the evasiveness about stating one's reasons?

I don't want to argue with anyone's decisions, I just want to understand them.

[AuntG]

Well, if you aren't paying taxes, I could see why you wouldn't want to be tracked by the government!

And that IS a joke, btw.

We are going through our own personal hellish nightmare with IRS and they have proven themselves to be nothing but untrustworthy! Grr!

[Jamie19]

What if you die, and the kiddo has NO way to get one?

I mean honestly I'd get it. I had to go through a week long hassle to get a copy of mine because I apperantly had a copy??? It was a PITA and pretty frustrating to me as I was trying to apply to school and get an ID for it

[rajahkat]

"You need an SSN to declare your child as a dependent on your tax return, and to receive health insurance. You need an SSN later in life to get a job, open a bank or brokerage account, apply for credit, even sign up for a phone or cable TV"

Ugh, and Ew. That's the point! Or at least how I view it. Don't you realise that some people are trying to get away from this exact kind of life? The kind of life that emphasizes the importance of things like MONEY and a meaningless unfullfilling job so you can put money in your bank account, max out your credit card and stare at cable tv?!?!?

Regardless of whether it makes life "easier"monetarily or otherwise, some people choose to give the matter a little more thought. And some feel better choosing NOT to register their children. That's all. I think it's silly that there have been so many "I did it, you should too!" type posts, especially from people who never post here. It's wierd what will bring people out of the woodwork.

Kat

[talk de jour]

I think choosing to not get your dc a birth certificate is unfair.

You're deliberately choosing to make their lives more difficult, and they have no say in the matter.

[SquishyKitty]

We fly internationally with DS at least once or twice a year. He has always had to have a passport, and they have always checked it.

He's on his second passport now, and he's 6.

What if, later on down the road, something happened to your children that rendered them unable to care for themselves for the rest of their lives? Would you want govt benefits for them?

[SquishyKitty]

Originally Posted by rajahkat

"You need an SSN to declare your child as a dependent on your tax return, and to receive health insurance. You need an SSN later in life to get a job, open a bank or brokerage account, apply for credit, even sign up for a phone or cable TV"

Ugh, and Ew. That's the point! Or at least how I view it. Don't you realise that some people are trying to get away from this exact kind of life? The kind of life that emphasizes the importance of things like MONEY and a meaningless unfullfilling job so you can put money in your bank account, max out your credit card and stare at cable tv?!?!?

Regardless of whether it makes life "easier"monetarily or otherwise, some people choose to give the matter a little more thought. And some feel better choosing NOT to register their children. That's all. I think it's silly that there have been so many "I did it, you should too!" type posts, especially from people who never post here. It's wierd what will bring people out of the woodwork.

Kat

But that's for you. Why do you assume that your children will want that as well? Or that they'll be grateful for the hassle they have to go through to get a BC or SSN so that they can work, or go to college, or do pretty much anything? If they have it and never use it, hooray. If they have it, and one day they want it, at least you did the right thing for your kids and made their lives that much easier.

All countries have some form of SSN, and use it to get jobs and go to school. All of them, the US is no different.

[bryonyvaughn]

Originally Posted by CountryMom2e

I would not recommend it. Without a birth certificate, you can't get a SSN ...You need an SSN to declare your child as a dependent on your tax return, and to receive health insurance. You need an SSN later in life to get a job, open a bank or brokerage account, apply for credit, even sign up for a phone or cable TV.

That's not true regarding health insurance, opening a bank account, applying for credit, and signing up for phone or cable TV. (Heck, I had the lab demand my SSN for a blood draw.) They may ask you for a SSN for those things but it's not required by law you give it to receive the services. I admit it some people can make it a complete PITA. I find non-banking industry folks are more accommodating if I say "I don't have a SS card but my children were born here and do." They won't take my children's numbers and ASSUME I don't have a SSN so they'll let me make up a unique 9-digit ID. For banking it's much easier to ask around a Latino (in our area) or other immigrant community to find out what non-citizens do. There are banks which cater that go after non-SSN folks as a niche market.

Many people and organizations are way over the top in their requests for personal information. To get the sale prices many grocery stores demand name, address, phone number, email, and sometimes even driver's license and SSN. FWIW, the grocery store thinks my name is Joan Smith and I live in the governor's mansion. Cripes, I went to ToysRUs once and one idiot refused to let me pay cash for an item if I didn't give him my phone number and zip code. One well placed conniption fit with the supervisor solved the problem.

~BV

[mama in the forest]

"I did it, you should too!" type posts, especially from people who never post here. It's wierd what will bring people out of the woodwork.

and

One well placed conniption fit with the supervisor solved the problem.

[mama in the forest]

If your child is on the system you can't get him/her off BUT you can sign a form at your local health department for them to block the record

That's very interesting! I'll look into that, thanks BV.

[siennasmom]

Originally Posted by rajahkat

Regardless of whether it makes life "easier"monetarily or otherwise, some people choose to give the matter a little more thought. And some feel better choosing NOT to register their children. That's all. I think it's silly that there have been so many "I did it, you should too!" type posts, especially from people who never post here. It's wierd what will bring people out of the woodwork.

Kat

"New posts" brought me out of the woodwork. I hope I'm allowed an opinion even if I don't usually post in this folder. Just in case I am, I agree with the PPs who said that it's unfair to the child to assume that s/he won't want or need a birth certificate when s/he's an adult. If you want to have your birth certificate expunged somehow, be my guest. But I don't think it's fair to make that decision for your kid.

[JesseMomme]

Nobody answered my question. : Can someone explain more to me about this "delayed" birth certificate?

I know I'm basically "nay" on life with no BC, but for us it's not what we intended to deal with and it's been a huge hassle for us at every turn, the princeples behind not getting one, while I appreciate everyone taking the time to explain what they are, are not practical for us. I hope I didn't get lumped in the "you should too!" posts - my posts didn't say that.

Even after all of that though, the UC was more than worth it!