Choosing not to get a birth certificate at all... - Page 4

[Sonnenwende]

This has to be one of the ridiculous things I have ever read here. Look, your kid needs a birth certificate. Who is going to suffer the most for not having one? YOUR CHILD. Look, I understand you want to stick it to the man, but come on.

[bryonyvaughn]

Originally Posted by JesseMomme

Nobody answered my question. : Can someone explain more to me about this "delayed" birth certificate?

I wasn't trying to ignore you, JesseMomme. I only wanted to reply to posts where I considered my perspective uniquely helpful.

Delayed b/c are just like any other b/c except the birth was registered some time after it occurred. In MI you can fill out the typical birth registration form for up to 12 months after you child's birth. If you wait one day or 60 years longer, different documentation is required and different procedures are followed. The resulting birth certificate is every bit as legal and every bit as usable as any other.

Not that you asked but I thought I'd throw in that each state also has its own laws about how what they do with birth certificates in regards to adoptions, name changes, and sex changes.

HTH,
BV

[cottonwood]

If I were the OP, I might be changing the original title to "support only" right about now...

Anyway. We are going to be getting BCs pretty soon here. We're delayed, so I might be able to help with your question, Jesse. It depends on the state, of course, but here it's just paperwork up until seven years of age, including affidavits from two people saying that your child was born here. After seven years of age you need to go to court in addition.

Also re: health insurance, two of our children don't have SSNs, and our health insurance company covers them.

[StrongBeliever]

I'm glad to see so many people have jumped in on this. While we all might not agree, I think it's something that everyone ought to be more educated about, and more open to the discussion of. I've run into so many open-minded, intelligent, understanding people here on MDC... It's inspiring to see so many well thought points of view.

Addressing zinemama's comments about persecution and evasiveness... My views are "radically" left wing. Or at least that is what most people would classify them under. I think many people here would agree with me when I say that the American government is less than fair and just... I'd go farther than that though, and say that I believe our government is a much darker, dirtier entity than many can imagine. While I absolutely think it is my right to, and that I should, stand up for what I believe in, I don't want to spend valuable time and effort laying out every detail that has brought me to where I am if I think that it might cause myself or others undue stress or anger. I know knowledge isn't always pretty, and plenty of people could use a dose of ugly as a wake up call, but I'm not prepared to be the person laying that out there.

As for the people who have expressed the idea of "unfairness" for the child not having a birth certificate... Couldn't it be construed as unfair to get your child a birth certificate and SSN that they can never get away from? What if, after a years of living a free and easy childhood, they become adults and find that in order to do ANYTHING they have to submit to these papers and the rules and regulations that accompany them, only to find that the reward for doing so doesn't exist? That in fact those documents carry with them a bevy of unfair and unnecessary burdens. There is little benefit, in my eyes, to having documents based upon empty promises of a corrupt government. Instead, I am going to raise my children to do for themselves, to be smart and confident and strong, and to have faith in themselves and their power to live however they please. Can I do that if they have a BC? Yes, anyone can raise their kids to be independent... But knowing what I know now, I feel that my children could never fully implement that independence when they are chained to government regulation. I wish my mother had known... So does my mother. Being the person responsible for the well being of my children, I can only make the choices that I feel are best for my children. As for avoiding the "hassle" *shakes head in amazement*... HAVING the things is a hassle! Even when we have our documents in perfect order, any number of the places requiring you to have them can still put you through the wringer. They don't make life THAT much easier, and for someone who isn't going to take advantage of any of the things that are made easier by having them... It just doesn't make sense to attach yourself to things that will do you no good. *Wow, that sack of bowling balls might come in handy some day, so I think I'll just keep dragging it around with me on the off chance that I might need it.* Knowing what I know, and believing what I believe, I'll let my children make the choice as to whether or not they like bowling before signing them up for a league and handing them the ball. Also... A LOT can happen in fifteen years... I'd like to wait and see what happens between now and the time my children are old enough for those documents to matter.

Something to think about for all the people who value their rights as parents and protectors of their children...

Not having a birth certificate and SSN means that your child can't qualify for, or be counted towards, or be included in any government aid or government programs. No tax credits, no state aid, no public school, no govt. health care, ect. ect. ect... The government won't include them. Why? Ever thought of it much? Why would not having "identification" and a "number" make them any less entitled to help than a child with them? If it doesn't come to you right away, think a little harder. Someone made a comment on this thread, something along the lines of not existing and living outside govt. rules and laws... Which translates directly into being out of the government's reach...

Now think of all the things that would mean.

[JesseMomme]

I think that might be what I am actually doing right now, as the state of NC is asking for three signed affidavits - I've just typed up the letter and emailed them to several different people who saw me pregnant at the time I said I was and saw dd, etc...and I have to hope that at least three people can print this out and sign and notaraize it for me and actually mail it back to me so I can send it where it needs to go all in one envelope.

I had just never heard the state say it in terms of "delayed". I just think of it in terms of "PITA"

Thank you FLB and BV

eta: oh for the health insurance..b/c it's medicaid, they "have" to have SS#s.

[dianamerrell]

Originally Posted by Sonnenwende

This has to be one of the ridiculous things I have ever read here. Look, your kid needs a birth certificate. Who is going to suffer the most for not having one? YOUR CHILD. Look, I understand you want to stick it to the man, but come on.

that is harsh

and really - the most ridiculous thing? what about circ, vax, child abuse, etc. etc. etc. etc.

even if your opinions differ - show some compassion :

[subrosa]

Delayed birth certificate regulations vary from state to state. A delayed birth certificate is not always given as much credence as a birth certificate issued in the ordinary manner.

Rajahkat (I hope I got your name right!), I understand what you are saying about legal marriage in terms of not being necessary to represent your commitment to your partner, but marriage is an important thing from a legal standpoint. It gives you varing rights in regards to inheritance if your spouse dies, as well as decision-making power should your spouse be medically incapacitated. That is not something I would give up lightly.

OP, if you should choose not to pursue a birth certificate for your newest child, I would urge you to file among your personal papers notarized statements from yourself, your child's other parent, and two witnesses indicating that you were pregnant and that you birthed the child (your witnesses can just say "she was pregnant and then she showed up with a baby"). I don't know if that will be perfect, but it would probably aid your child significantly should he/she decide for some reason to pursue a delayed birth certificate later in life, especially if you die or are somehow unavailable.

It's true I don't post much here, but I try to participate if I think I have something useful to add to the discussion

[StrongBeliever]

I didn't think it would come to that Fourlittlebirds, wanted to leave room for everyones opinion. I'd like to think that most of the people here wouldn't attack others for differences in belief, but it seems like that was a bit optimistic. For those who might disagree, I urge you to do your research before flaying those who might have a different idea. If you don't get it, or don't even remotely begin to see why someone might make that choice, then you are missing lots of information. It is not my job, nor anyone else's, to make sure you have it.

Haven't thousands of people said, "Come on now!" when someone mentioned that they would like to have their child at home, alone, without interference? "You've GOT to have a doctor, or midwife!" *shakes head yet again* This is much the same story... I would never make a fickle decision regarding the welfare of my children. I have educated myself completely on all of my options, both for giving birth unassisted and choosing to forgo a BC.

[StrongBeliever]

Thankyou Subrosa, for the suggestions. That's along the lines of what I was looking for when I first posted. I'd like to have everything I need so that, should my child decide they want a BC later, they will have the necessary info they will need to get it.

[crissei]

I don't know anyone personally (I think) But I do know that choosing not to get a BC, is not all that unusual among the Homesteader community.

I have considered it, but in the end we decided that we are more comfortable with getting a BC.
If we were living more independently, and more remotely, I would probably choose to not get one.

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by StrongBeliever

If you don't get it, or don't even remotely begin to see why someone might make that choice, then you are missing lots of information. It is not my job, nor anyone else's, to make sure you have it. .

See, this is the attitude I simply don't get. When a naive newbie comes on MDC and asks a sincere question about something she's never heard of (breastfeed past a year? why would you?), people fall all over themselves to hand out information. Plenty of mamas here do, in fact, consider it their job to get that information to someone who wants it.

I don't understand why you are so reluctant to do the same. Believe me, I share your views (to a certain extent) on the rottenness of this government. And I have no interest in learning every little detail of what has brought you to your current views. That's your business. I'm simply interested the concrete benefits you perceive you will gain by not having BC's for your children. Other than the vague "being tracked by the government" thing.

Sorry to come across to pesky on this, but I'll admit, you have really piqued my curiousity with this issue!

[moondiapers]

Originally Posted by CalenandEllasmomma

I was going to say the same thing as the PP. You have to have a SS# to get health insurance, to work, to register for school. I think it would be nearly impossible to get by without having one these days.

I don't think you can get a SS# without a BC.

Also many summer camps and other activities your child might want to participate in require copies of the BC.

My children were both enrolled in public school and have medical insurance without use of their SSN They are requested not required. I'm not sure how to go about things without a BC though.

[cravenab00]

this is something i have considered, and will be looking into further.

The main reason for me, is that in my state it is absolutley impossible to opt out of the PKU test. And before anyone says that "yes you can opt out"
read this : http://www.hhs.state.ne.us/nsp/physicians.htm
scroll about a third of the way down, under "religious opposition"

the only way to avoid this intrusiveness, is by not registering the baby's birth.

I have a friend who did this, because she is opposed to the test. And her baby is on their health insurance without a problem. She had a UC, she used to post here, but no longer has internet.

because I am always striving to look for the positive in things, my one thing i held on to, is that IF i ever needed to transfer to the hospital, the hosp nearest me is across the state line, and in that state, a simple signature is all that is required to opt of out the test.

sorry i went off on a tangent. I am finding this thread informative. and i am rather shocked at some of the responses.

[StrongBeliever]

Zinemama... I understand your point. I too appreciate the willingness of most everyone here to share what they know with others who know less. However, considering how inflammatory said information may be to some, I choose not to be the person to share. While I would love for everyone to understand, and would be very happy to see others take the same path, Like I said before I am not prepared to be the person to educate. If you would read the post over again in which I addressed your comments before, you'll have a good idea of why I have made the choices I have. Seeing that you are a writer, I can understand why you would want "concrete reasons" as to why I've made this choice. I admire your curiosity. Hopefully it will lead you to do some digging and research... What writers are apt to do anyway.

By the way... I think the "vague" reason of wanting to avoid government tracking stands by itself as a good reason. Goodness gracious... Like anyone WANTS their actions tracked and recorded for their entire lives!

Cravenab00... Keep striving for the positives. You're fortunate to be able to avoid your issue if you really need to. Not everyone is. Choosing to not register a child one way to avoid many of the things state and federal law might otherwise force you into. It's not the perfect solution, but it seems to me like it is the most effective. While it's true that many of the things we'd rather not do can be opted out of, you only can with further hassle and paperwork. And then you have to deal with the implications of doing so. Religious opposition sometimes works, and when it does it puts you on file somewhere as a religious extremist. With all of the crazy laws being passed these days to "protect us from domestic terrorists" you can be labeled a terrorist for something as simple as not wanting to vaccinate your child for religious reasons. That's not something I want to support.

Plain and simple... I don't really like the way our government does things. Therefor, I am not going to go out of my way to make sure the government can keep tabs on this child, and any children I have in the future. If my children choose to do things differently when they are older, at least they will be armed with information and I can rest easy that I stood my ground and did the very best I knew how.

[2bluefish]

OT - LOL, I think it is funny how people categorize their ideologies - from everything you've describe StrongBeliever, I would have thought you to be strongly rightwing. I go by the definition of conservatism being "less gov't", so the furthest right is anarchy, the furthest left is massive controling gov't - perhaps even fascism. (I'm not a fan of uncontrolled democracy, because I don't care to do what the "mob" wants.) I'm pretty wildly rightwing - so I don't like all this registering and being told what to do. But dh is not so far right, and he thinks you should pay taxes if you drive on the road, etc., so I guess our kids will continue to be registered.

[StrongBeliever]

Left wing, right wing... I suppose it doesn't even really matter what anyone calls it. I don't really classify myself as anything... Pulled left-wing because I thought it was a term that people would be able to easily identify. Oops. I guess under your definition I'd me right-wing. I believe if I made the local news, they'd call me left-wing.

[momtobub]

I'm just wondering, for those of you who aren't going the SSN, BC route, if you are thinking ahead to when your kids want to go to work someday to earn a living. How will they do that and will it be more of a hassle for them? What about college?

And what if one of your kids gets sick, or needs an operation?

Let me share a store with you. I personally have real problems with the interference of the medical profession, and the overmedicating of kids. But, I've taken my son for his annual checkup every year, because to me it's harmless to have a doctor look at him for ten minutes and you NEVER know about these things. Anyway, the doctor was looking in his ear and noticed something suspicious and worrysome. But my son has never had an ear infection and has only had a few minor colds in his lifetime so i was inclined to ignore it.

But we followed his advice and went to a specialist, who told us our son has an invasive tumor, that, if left untouched, would have eventually caused complete deafeness, paralysis and death.

An audiology test showed significant hearing loss in his ear. The bill, just for that one appointment, was $400. The next day he had to have a CAT scan.

He is now facing at least two very complicates surgeries and extensive follow-up care that will not doubt cost tens of thousands of dollars. Luckily, we have insurace that will allow us to pay for a doctor who is very good at taking out these tumors while preserving the nerves and most of the hearing.

My son was perfectly healthy without any inkling of a problem but the annual check up saved his life.

Just something for you guys to chew over. You have to think about protecting the health of your kids, first.

If we had no insurace, our SON would have been screwed by our selfishness. Just something to think about. I'm all for providing a life free and untethered, but, it can have very serious consequencess.

[hottater]

I guess I fail to see the logic. It seems that by not getting bc's now, you are setting yourself up for a much larger issue and more gov't involvement down the road.

Your child may see going to college as fufilling. They may dream of working in the public sector as a scrub nurse, a art teacher, a social worker or a vet. All those things will requite college. One poster stated that it took her uncle seven YEARS to a bc as an adult. I can't imagine being a kid who has decided he want to follow a course that requires college and then discovering he will have to wait seven years, deal with court system and pay legal costs all over something that would have been so simple.

Your children may build themselves a home, tend to their familes, grow heathful food and live a life just as you are doing now. That would be a wonderful thing. I know we all just want our children to be happy, to find their peace and be themselves, fully realized. But, you may have a child that dreams differently than you. One of them may WANT to have a bank account and put money into a savings account. They might want to spend years in formal academia and then spend years more working in the same capacity. They might want to be a lawyer and fight for legal freedoms from the requirements of having a bc to do certain things

That is the gift of parenthood. To understand that thy are not us. To allow them to be grow into whoever they may be, to do everything in our power to try to grow them a happy future.

[siennasmom]

Originally Posted by hottater

That is the gift of parenthood. To understand that thy are not us. To allow them to be grow into whoever they may be, to do everything in our power to try to grow them a happy future.

Well said.

[s_kristina]

My dad did not have a birth certificate until he was at least 18. With his parents help he started working on getting it at age 16 when he wanted to take driver's ed back in the 60's. The doctor who had attended his birth had died and the original bc was lost in a fire before it was filed. Even with a baptismal record it was almost impossible for him to get his bc back then. He still needs his bc for things like health insurance as he has diabetes and life insurance as he is the major wage earner between my parents. He also needed it when he went to college. Sure he probably could have gotten by as a truck driver or working in the shop with his dad, but that isn't what he wanted to do. He wanted to go to college and without a bc that option would have been taken away from him.