or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Birth and Beyond › Unassisted Childbirth › Choosing not to get a birth certificate at all...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Choosing not to get a birth certificate at all... - Page 5

post #81 of 218
i think the OP is looking for advice on NOT getting a birth certificate.
Not various stories of telling her why she SHOULD.

I think we need to respect opinions here. even if they arent the same.

people tell me stories all the time about "this happened to so and so, thats why you should....
not homeschool
vaccinate your kids
circumcise
birth at a hospital
etc.....
post #82 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by hottater View Post
That is the gift of parenthood. To understand that thy are not us. To allow them to be grow into whoever they may be, to do everything in our power to try to grow them a happy future.
VERY well said and I could not agree more.
post #83 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongBeliever View Post
By the way... I think the "vague" reason of wanting to avoid government tracking stands by itself as a good reason. Goodness gracious... Like anyone WANTS their actions tracked and recorded for their entire lives!.
Ok, StrongBeliever, I give up! I guess I will never understand your choices and I will never understand your reluctance to share them, either. But so be it.

As for being "tracked by the government," I suppose I've been "tracked" my whole life, via BC, SS#, work history, bank accounts, etc. While I'm not at all in the camp that wants to convince you to be tracked, I'm still not seeing how it's impacted me negatively.

I get the feeling that you are afraid the government will track you for some specific purpose. They'll track you down and...perform medical experiments on you? Throw you in jail? Take your kids? Honestly, unless you are a criminal on the lam or a victim of CPS, I just can't figure out what they might track you down for that would be so awful. But clearly, there's something, and I respect your desire not to share it.

On the other hand... statements like this truly make me question your credibility:

"With all of the crazy laws being passed these days to "protect us from domestic terrorists" you can be labeled a terrorist for something as simple as not wanting to vaccinate your child for religious reasons. That's not something I want to support"

Do you have a shred of evidence for this? I don't vaccinate and I think I keep up pretty well with the issues around that, and I have never, ever heard of anyone being labeled a terrorist for not wanting to vaccinate. Where do you get this from?
post #84 of 218
I am in Canada, so the way it works here may be different, but I thought I'd share anyway since the discussion has evolved to include personal philosophy and ideology.

All of our children are registered, but do not have BC's, however, it's really the same thing. Much has already been expressed here, but my main reason for wishing we hadn't registered our children is that it essentially entitles the governement and its agencies to monitor and direct how we raise our children. An unregistered child is not in the jurisdiction of cps, for example. Registration is literally giving title of your child to the Crown Corporation (here), and removes ultimate authority from the parents. Now if you believe that the gov't only has our best interests in mind, and you are into Brave New World, then this might not be disturbing to you. It is to me. It is also disturbing to me that my bc says right on it that it is a bank note- that is, a tradable commodity on the world markets. I am not a scholar in the field of dirty world economic dealings, but I cringe to know that since I have been registered, I have become a 'human resource' and my lifetime's worth of 'output' is traded like any other commodity/resource (instead of the gold we no longer have to back the Canada Bank Note- I guess I am a good enough replacement for a few gold bars...). If you think this is a conspiracy theory, maybe you could explain to me why my bc says "Canada Bank Note." I haven't tried yet, but I thought of taking it to the Bank of Canada and trying to cash it in... I wonder what my name is worth.

I find it disturbing that every document I have ever recieved from the gov't or bank has my name in capital letters, like my bc. I know that is because my name is incorporated, which is why I don't have to register a business name if I choose to use my birth name, but if I want another name, I have to register; my birth name is already a registered corporation. And it is bankrupt, just like the government that incorporated it. It owes me everything it has, and it's the same for my children. My postscript should clear up why I cannot collect on this debt, however.

There is a lot more to this, and there are a lot of freedom-fighters or so-called extremists who fight against this stuff; I am only one in heart because my life situation doesn't allow me the luxury of autonomy currently. I don't believe that what I know about what I am having been registered, is worth any of the supposed 'benefits' I recieve, but having come upon this information so late, I have to just suck it up, and hope that one day I can release myself and our family. I trust that most of this seems like nonsense to most, but if you begin to research, you'll find a wide spectrum of both trustworthy and untrustworthy resources to help you to understand. It becomes clear which is which rather quickly, depending on how quickly you read.

Look up STRAWMAN, government bankruptcy, read through the articles at the IMF site, use the new terminology you'll learn there to look more up. The trail is long and very dirty, and if you have the stomach for it, you'll want to search more.

There are ample reasons for not wanting to register a child. There are very few for wanting to do it, in my opinion, and sadly in our case, just one of those reasons is compelling enough that we had to register our last child, even knowing what we do, and will probably have to register this one too I feel angry about it though...

For those who are registration advocates, why do you think that we should register children so they will have an easier time being enslaved to a corrupt system later on? Why wouldn't it be equally easy to live outside of it when one has been raised with the understanding to carry that through? All of the items on the reasons-for-registering list seem to me to be fabricated needs anyway (that have swallowed up what could have just as easily been available through other means, and have thereby become like shackles for some). I believe that we as human beings are designed to meet the needs of ourselves and each other as individuals, don't you? Why do you feel that you need what the government is offering in return for your compliance? (These are not rhetorical questions; they are actual questions that I have asked in a way that makes my own intentions clear so that they can be answered with your opinion, but in a given context, which makes discussion possible- I've been accused of asking only rhetorical questions because I give intended context... I don't get it... any way, I am truly curious to know if you can think of this in depth and still come to the conclusion that you need what the government tells you it is giving you, so please answer if you are inclined)

P.S. For those who already know this stuff, a supreme court justice set a precedent in Canadian law that the strawman is the natural man, flesh and blood, merging them as one entity, by intention of both the one who addresses him by his birth name and also by his recognition of that name regardless of how it is written, spoken or implied or how it came about. I think it is different in the United States still.

Strongbeliever, I am interested in what you are willing to share. Would you be willing to pm?
post #85 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinemama View Post
...On the other hand... statements like this truly make me question your credibility:

"With all of the crazy laws being passed these days to "protect us from domestic terrorists" you can be labeled a terrorist for something as simple as not wanting to vaccinate your child for religious reasons. That's not something I want to support"

Do you have a shred of evidence for this? I don't vaccinate and I think I keep up pretty well with the issues around that, and I have never, ever heard of anyone being labeled a terrorist for not wanting to vaccinate. Where do you get this from?
I'm not StrongBeliever but have a few marginally relevant stories.

Does anyone remember the case of a Canadian woman breastfeeding her infant on a US bound flight a few years ago? Apparently an American man had "issues" to the extent that being near a woman BFing caused him great anxiety. Because she was a foreigner, because her intentional actions (nursing!) caused him great distress, and because of a bunch of other crap that happened to line up with the way the statute was written, The woman was arrested (maybe a few days?) later on charges related to committing an act of terrorism on an airplane. While I *ASSUME* the charges were dropped or she was found not guilty, what a horrible situation to be arrested in a foreign country on bogus charges, endure forced separation from nursling, and have no one to care for him!

Pertaining to vaccination I think it was about five years ago that the federal government was pressuring states to pass draconian public health laws that would enable PH officials declare a PH emergency, round up masses of people, and forcibly vaccinate and release them (with no legal option of suing the state for vaccine damage) or keep them confined (in stadiums even! It was before Katrina and the Superdome) without the right of habeus corpus for periods of 30 to 45 days and indefinitely longer if PH officials extended the original PH emergency or declared separate one in that period.

Vaccination educators caught wind of the federal government's plans before they were released to the state officials. I remember my representative, who happened to be and ER doc, had no clue what I was talking about. I think if his kids didn't go to my church he would have thought I was some sort of nut job stalker. The vaccine folks did such a great job of pressuring state legislatures before the bills were even dropped that the federal government gave up.

So the end is those laws weren't implemented but we've all seen some pretty horrendous laws passed "in the middle of the night." Anyone read the Military Commissions Act?

~BV
post #86 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by hottater
That is the gift of parenthood. To understand that thy are not us. To allow them to be grow into whoever they may be, to do everything in our power to try to grow them a happy future.

VERY well said and I could not agree more.
Certainly we can all agree that every one of us is going to have a different way of understanding our "gift of parenthood" and that we all want our children to grow up with a happy childhood and future. To hint that the OP isn't providing properly for her child is really unnecessary and harsh. My sense is that she originally came here to the UC forum to find out if other UC mamas had chosen to raise their children without a BC. And to find out if said mamas had had any difficulties or could offer her any advice. I'm guessing that if she had felt like debating the merits of her political beliefs, she would have gone over to TAO.

Let's have a little compassion for this mama. I for one think she is wise to think critically about this issue.
post #87 of 218
You can have compassion for someone and still not agree with them. Can't you?
post #88 of 218
Thread Starter 
To answer the question as to whether or not a person can disagree with someone and still have compassion for them, the answer is a resounding YES. From the beginning, I've not asked anyone to agree with me. PP's were right when they said that I came here looking for other parents who might have done, or considered doing, what I have. I wanted to find some confirmation, some like minds, some open-minded advice and guidance. And I believe that a few here have done a very good job of satisfying that need. But I also clearly stated that I was open to other's opinions. I had a feeling I might get a few less than understanding replies, but that's life. Maybe those of you who have a hard time grasping the idea will delve a little further into the subject... Ideally I'd like for everyone to have a chance to grow beyond what they already know, so I intentionally left room for everyone to comment, even those who might do so in a negative or unfriendly way.

Hottater... I agree with your much quoted comment as well. Our children are NOT us. But it is our jobs as parents to not only watch them flourish into independent adults, but to guide them along the way with the knowledge we have acquired during our lifetimes. Doesn't every parent want to share the lessons they have learned, and instill the values they believe in, with their children? Am I wrong for wanting to do so, just because I am different?

Zinemama... I'm sad that you will so easily give up in your quest for knowledge. I should also say that I think your implications that I have something to hide or be ashamed of are uncalled for and terribly childish. If you choose to lash out at those who don't comply with your demands, I can understand why you "just don't get it."

I'd like to thank the other mothers that have been a voice of reason, the ones who agree as well as the ones who don't agree with what I choose to do. It's a controversial subject obviously, and it takes bravery to stand up for somebody else. I find that bravery very inspiring... It makes me very happy and proud to share the common bond of UCing with you.

PreggieUBA2C... You said what I didn't have it together enough to say at the time. THANK YOU. You put yourself out there when I felt uncomfortable doing so... THANK YOU, yet again. The way things work here in the US and in Canada are disgustingly similar... I'll be writing you personally, though it seems you probably know more than I.
post #89 of 218
Your child is 100% likely to run into lots of difficulty without a birth certificate.

The probabilty of your child running into the kind of trouble with the government that you are intimating is near zero.
post #90 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C View Post
It is also disturbing to me that my bc says right on it that it is a bank note- that is, a tradable commodity on the world markets.
My gosh, that is *creepy*!!

One of the things many of us fraidy cats here in the US have been fighting is a program that they are pushing to register all livestock - including pet horses, or livestock that are pets. They want to microchip all the animals and pinpoint your property with GPS. And they want to control how animals move from place to place. If your vet knows that your animal is not in compliance, he will be required to report you. I'm not one to fuss much about "big agriculture" but this is one of those things that will *only* benefit big agriculture and will make life very difficult for all the small guys. Not to mention that I see having animals and producing my own food as a type of safety measure against a disaster. I don't want the gov't having the power to come take or destroy my animals if they see fit (I'm sure they could find a way to do it anyway, if they really wanted, but at least they don't have GPS on my animals!)

I do feel that the life I have as part of the system is better than the life I could potentially have *right now* outside the system. However, I feel this life in the system is much more precarious than many people want to admit.
post #91 of 218
i think that you should get her BC it's going to be hell to pay if you wait...
post #92 of 218
boy, this has been a really interesting thread. i had never actually questioned having a bc before but i do now. though in reality i'm sure i've used more government benefits than i've actually paid for. hmmm, if we were more self-sufficient i'd definitely think about.

thanks for bringing this topic up!
post #93 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongBeliever View Post
T
Zinemama... I'm sad that you will so easily give up in your quest for knowledge. I should also say that I think your implications that I have something to hide or be ashamed of are uncalled for and terribly childish. If you choose to lash out at those who don't comply with your demands, I can understand why you "just don't get it."
StrongBeliever, I don't think anything I wrote to you was childish or unkind. Nor did I lash out at you, or demand anything of you, either.

As for implying that you have something to hide, you said it yourself:

"I'd be opening myself up to A LOT of persecution if I stated every reason I have for not wanting one."

Sounds like you do, in fact, have something to hide. And if you'll re-read my posts, I said I respected your desire not to share it.
post #94 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by subrosa View Post
A delayed birth certificate is not always given as much credence as a birth certificate issued in the ordinary manner.
My understanding is that it carries the same legal weight. In what sense would this be an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cravenab00
The main reason for me, is that in my state it is absolutley impossible to opt out of the PKU test. And before anyone says that "yes you can opt out"
read this : http://www.hhs.state.ne.us/nsp/physicians.htm
scroll about a third of the way down, under "religious opposition"
I understand the sentiment. I had similar reasons for not registering my children's births immediately. For instance, I had concerns about whoever was handling the paperwork reporting us to CPS for having had an unattended birth. I was also concerned (because of proposed legislation at the time and witch-hunting) about the government being able to track us for possible mandatory vaccination and schooling purposes. I'm absolutely opposed to the government's involvement in either of those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongBeliever
However, considering how inflammatory said information may be to some, I choose not to be the person to share. While I would love for everyone to understand, and would be very happy to see others take the same path, Like I said before I am not prepared to be the person to educate.
Although I would like to hear the details, I completely understand why you just don't want to get into it here and now. You would be inviting judgment and be having to defend yourself in a conversation that I suspect would be far more controversial than the one we're already having.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bluefish
from everything you've describe StrongBeliever, I would have thought you to be strongly rightwing. I go by the definition of conservatism being "less gov't", so the furthest right is anarchy, the furthest left is massive controling gov't
I would like to see certain services be available to everyone, with use of those services not mandated nor based on the giving up of autonomy of personal decision making. (The problem with both the right and left is that they insist that these things have to be mutually exclusive.) So what would you call me, I wonder?
post #95 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bluefish View Post
My gosh, that is *creepy*!!

One of the things many of us fraidy cats here in the US have been fighting is a program that they are pushing to register all livestock - including pet horses, or livestock that are pets. They want to microchip all the animals and pinpoint your property with GPS. And they want to control how animals move from place to place. If your vet knows that your animal is not in compliance, he will be required to report you. I'm not one to fuss much about "big agriculture" but this is one of those things that will *only* benefit big agriculture and will make life very difficult for all the small guys. Not to mention that I see having animals and producing my own food as a type of safety measure against a disaster. I don't want the gov't having the power to come take or destroy my animals if they see fit (I'm sure they could find a way to do it anyway, if they really wanted, but at least they don't have GPS on my animals!)

Oh, this is a very mind opening topic and I would encourage you all to dig deeper and research all you can about this. I am in complete agreement with Strongbeliever about our government being so corrupt. There is soo much evil. If we all knew just a portion of how the government is running, we'd all pee our pants.

I mostly wanted to comment back to 2bluefish about the animals being microchipped. The government is actually in the works of setting up people to be microchipped as well and that's a very scary thing. Our farms are going away. It's truely a sad thing. We are losing our freedom bits and pieces at a time. I believe that our government is behind alot of evil things and its in preparation for taking control of the people. I also think it's going to get alot worse. I think we need to do our research and learn all that we can about this and decide to take a stand and fight for our freedom.

I wouldn't be surprised if they started to sneak the microchips into vaccinations. I mean, everyone gets them so it would make it really easy to just slip those in.

It really comes down to the fact that we are probably nearing the end times. There is alot of prophecy that is being fulfilled. So things are going to be getting alot worse as time goes by. All I know is that we will be staying away from being chipped. I DON'T go to the docter unless its for a broken bone. I plan to homeschool my kids. I plan to have a garden to grow my own food and raise my own beef.Milk my own cows. Etc.

My dd does have a BC but for future children, I am thinking I may not as well. I want my children to live a life of freedom and independance. That's what our country was built on. As far as traveling goes, maybe there will be a way around that in the future.
post #96 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwright View Post

I wouldn't be surprised if they started to sneak the microchips into vaccinations. I mean, everyone gets them so it would make it really easy to just slip those in.

It really comes down to the fact that we are probably nearing the end times. There is alot of prophecy that is being fulfilled. So things are going to be getting alot worse as time goes by. All I know is that we will be staying away from being chipped. I DON'T go to the docter unless its for a broken bone. I plan to homeschool my kids. I plan to have a garden to grow my own food and raise my own beef.Milk my own cows. Etc.
I've pretty pesimistic when it comes to this government and I'm also somewhat of a conspiracy theorist. Hearing about all the microchipping that it becoming or is required of animals makes me feel like it's only setting us up to become used to the idea and eventually let it happen to our children. For example, I could just see them playing on the fears of our children being kidnapped. "If your child is microchipped then you will *always* know where they are and if they are kidnapped they will be easier to find."

I had always thought about not getting a birth certificate for my children. I feel like it would make things more difficult down the road but at the same time I also get fed up with making life easier by just complying with what is considered standard procedure, ie: birth certificates and ss#'s. It's always easier to just go along with the herd and "they" make it so.

Interesting thread, thanks for starting it!
post #97 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
I would like to see certain services be available to everyone, with use of those services not mandated nor based on the giving up of autonomy of personal decision making. (The problem with both the right and left is that they insist that these things have to be mutually exclusive.) So what would you call me, I wonder?
I would call you conservative - just not far right. (Most conservatives do want a degree of gov't infrastructure - they are just very protective of autonomy.) I tend to think ideologically far right, but also tend to think that my own ideas border crazy - so my choices are tempered.

I also think that most Republicans in office are just bad excuses for Democrats. There are very few "conservatives" that act like conservatives.
post #98 of 218
I have never thought about not getting a BC before now. I truely appreciate the knowledge that has been shared.

Off to research..............................
post #99 of 218
Without a birth certificate you can't get a SS card. A SS card is needed here in NY to obtain any state id including a driver's license. It is also required to work at any "on the books" job. A birth certificate is needed to obtain a US passport and register for school also. It would be impossible here to get a marriage license without a passport or state id.

Considering that I want my child to have the option of traveling internationally, driving, marrying and working wherevever they choose I would definitley register them and obtain a birth certificate.
post #100 of 218
My mom had her wallet stolen while on a business trip. Stolen were her drivers license and both our SS cards. I was in jr high at the time. She ended up going through HELL to straighten things out. She needs a DL to get a new SS card and a new SS card to get a DL. She ended up driving illegally for years after her license expired. It did not matter that her stuff was stolen and there was a police report. They SS office/DMV needed the ORIGINAL police report, not a copy. No police dept is going to give you the ORIGINAL report. She needed to go to her birth county and get a copy of her BC which was NOT POSSIBLE given her work schedule. This above paragraph may not sound like much but it was the same battle CONSTANTLY w/ these offices for YEARS, literally....and this was pre-Sept 11.

I was months late in getting my drivers license because I had no SS card. I was unable to get to the office b/c the closest SS office was a half hour away in another city and clearly I couldn't drive myself there and my parents couldn't take me because they were working constantly. You had to show 2 forms of ID to get a SS card and being 16, I had NOTHING. No credit cards. Finaly I ended up being able to show them my flimsy student ID that I had for some reason (came w/ student portraits, school never used them) and my BC. If I wasn't in school, I would have been COMPLETELY SOL. I didn't have a passport then, nor a military ID, credit card.....I can't even remember what all was accepted.

It was a huge, huge, HUGE mess.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Unassisted Childbirth
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Birth and Beyond › Unassisted Childbirth › Choosing not to get a birth certificate at all...