Sister decided to circ - what next?? Update #58 - Page 2

[bluetoes]

When is the baby due? All you can do is keep trying. To use myself as an example on another issue I was quite convinced I wasn't breastfeeding. It's hard to desribe now since it seems like madness, but I just couldn't imagine it, had body & modesty issues, and felt this sort of panicky pressure when I thought about it. I had a friend who talked to me about it throughout my pregnancy and was a real lactivist, but in a sweet and gentle way. At one point I even sent her an 'it's not going to happen' email thanking her for her info, but no thanks. Well you know what - she eventually convinced me to give it a go. And although I eventually failed at it for what I feel are good reasons I do what I can to promote breastfeeding and I am sooooooooooooo glad I listened. (the sad part is I don't think I won the circ. debate with her) but anyway, just keep at it with your sister. She might have an epiphany before he's born like I have heard of others doing.

[nd_deadhead]

Originally Posted by Leiahs

nd_deadhead, can I copy/paste what you said there into an email to my sister if she persists in this stupidity?

I have to tell you all, I spent most of last night awake and mentally typing hate mail to my sister, and mentally cutting off all family ties, I am so distraught over all of this.

YES!!!!!

But if it works, you have to send me a photo of your nephew when he's born!

[Leiahs]

She's due in just a couple weeks now, I think. I wish I could keep that boy inside her forever, or until she decides to change her mind.

[tuansprincess]

Originally Posted by Leiahs

Ooh, Tuanprincess, you posted the same time as I did. But you remind me -

Isn't there an article out there somewhere about how boys generally don't know the status of their fathers, or some sort of research about how they are emotionally (non)affected by the difference in status? Man, this is really vague, isn't it? I feel like I've just read it within the last couple weeks, though.

Hmm - I don't think I have seen one like that. I will keep looking though. If you or someone else finds it I would love the link.

[ndunn]

I don't really have alot of suggestions but you aren't alone. We just went through this with SIL who's baby is 2 weeks old. I haven't asked yet whether they decided to do it, but I cringe thinking about her poor baby. She's young too, same sort of situation.

[NaomiMcC]

Okay...I know I'm goiing to get totally flamed for this but...here it goes. You told her your opinion. You gave her the facts but in the end it's still HER decision. How would you feel if you wanted a homebirth for example and she constantly nagged you about your decision? About the risks? About the dangers etc etc. Wouldn't it grate on your nerves? You've given her the info. She has chosen to ignore it. While it may be an issue near and dear to you, you've done what you can do. Leave it be. And to cut your sister out of your life because of this seems quite extreme. I would rethink it.

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by NaomiMcC

Okay...I know I'm goiing to get totally flamed for this but...here it goes. You told her your opinion. You gave her the facts but in the end it's still HER decision. How would you feel if you wanted a homebirth for example and she constantly nagged you about your decision? About the risks? About the dangers etc etc. Wouldn't it grate on your nerves? You've given her the info. She has chosen to ignore it. While it may be an issue near and dear to you, you've done what you can do. Leave it be. And to cut your sister out of your life because of this seems quite extreme. I would rethink it.

Your analogy fails. Circumcision is a pointless, risky, cosmetic surgery performed on an unconsenting child which leaves them scarred for life. THIS should grate on peoples' nerves, and grate harder than the messenger of the news.

Moms have changed their minds seconds before their son is cut.

Don't listen to people telling you that it is too late, OP. Keep trying and don't feel ashamed. This is an innocent child with no voice. I applaud you for being a voice for him.

[carriebft]

This isn't just a parenting choice or a birth choice. This woman is having a piece of her son's penis cut off. This is a crime against his body, his being.

[bdavis337]

I agree, get her to watch a video. I was totally convinced you guys were all wacko until I watched a very graphic circ video. Even without sound on my computer I was nearly sick from it, and it worked on me better than anything else I'd read, heard or talked about from any angle.

[carriebft]

Also- have you thought about the Penn and Teller episode? There is some swearing and "man humor" (as my DH says) but it has changed a lot of minds.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by bdavis337

I agree, get her to watch a video. I was totally convinced you guys were all wacko until I watched a very graphic circ video. Even without sound on my computer I was nearly sick from it, and it worked on me better than anything else I'd read, heard or talked about from any angle.

That's exactly how I felt. When I first came to MDC and was poking around I saw the CAC. I thought what in the world could be wrong with circumcision? Lucky me I checked it out. And the first thread that day was the circ video. After that I knew what was wrong with circumcision.

[Leiahs]

I don't agree that it's anything like advocating for a natural birth. Honestly, I don't care even a fraction as much how she chooses to have a birth, what she decides about vaccines or when to introduce popsicles (I'm guessing by 2 months, if how she treated DD around me is any indication), and how she decides to parent - Circumcision is THE issue that gets me fired up. I agree with carriebft - this is something I consider a crime against their son's basic rights of humanity. The fact that is legal still is what makes a problem. It *is* her choice, as much as I hate it and say over and over that it *shouldn't* be.

I won't say it's too late until after her son is born or she stops talking to me, whichever comes first. Otherwise I'll never forgive myself for not trying harder. She has no excuse to claim ignorance as long as I'm around, and if she chooses circ after everything I've shared with her, his blood is on her hands that much more.

I don't guilt my other sisters nearly as much, because I didn't discover intactivism until after they were already parents - and I know very much from parents on this forum, and my own mindset before researching, that ignorance is bliss. I won't let her claim that... she has every opportunity to make a stand, to see truth and sense laid out plainly before her.

[carriebft]

Leiahs, I just read your last post and it makes me want to go out there tomorrow wearing my inactivism shirt and pin and change some minds. It takes a lot of courage to keep trying, especially when they are family and so connected to you. Let us know if you can think of any other sources that might help.

Isn't there an article out there somewhere about how boys generally don't know the status of their fathers, or some sort of research about how they are emotionally (non)affected by the difference in status? Man, this is really vague, isn't it? I feel like I've just read it within the last couple weeks, though.

you may try sharing our story with her. My husband's back is covered in mongolian birth marks (dark blue- they look like bruises). My son sees his back all the time (much more than his penis!). Should I make sure my son has some blue marks on his back so that they look alike? I mean, it might cause him mental problems, right? Maybe pointing out this horrible logic will help her see the light.

Also, I love this article:

http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm

very informative and the pictures stick in your mind.

[Tofu the Geek]

I'm betting that her DH doesn't know if his dad is circed or not and his dad likely doesn't know his grandfather's status either. Seriously, guys don't care about this at all unless it has to do with circing their sons. GRRRR. I mean, my DH didn't even know if his FOUR brothers were circed (2 older and 2 younger) and they lived in a tiny farmhouse with only 1 bedroom for the kids and one bathroom. Oh ya, and he doesn't know his dad's status either.

[Tinker]

I don't get the whole "I want the boys penis to look like mine" argument. What is it with guys and their penis's anyway? (No offense to any guys here) I haven't got a clue what my mother's vagina looks like(:Puke ) and I don't give a hoot if mine resembles it anyway. Do men really care if their penis looks like their fathers'?:

[Fi.]

You gave her the facts but in the end it's still HER decision.

Did you maybe make a wrong turn? Over here we don't believe that cosmetic surgery on someone else's genitals is mommy's decision. Mommy shouldn't be concerned with how pretty baby's penis is in her eyes.

[mamasophy]

I think "it's still her decision" refers more to the fact that legally that is the case and we can't take responsibility for others' behavior. No matter how we feel, no matter how wrong it is, it still is a "decision" (though I don't believe it should be) that they get to make, not us. At some point we have to separate ourselves or go crazy, even though we are so invested in the outcome that it hurts! That separation point is the tough part, because we all know that the circ decision can be reversed up to the last second! My own brother will allow his twins to be circ'd (if they're boys -they don't know) and he is against circ! But he wants to keep peace with his wife. I literally have done all I can think of, but he has shut down completely, won't read anything or respond, won't discuss it (just says "it doesn't matter" in his case). So I'm stepping back from communication for now and hoping they have girls! I will not cut him off, but he knows that I have lost a lot of respect for him and that I think that this decision just points out even bigger problems in their relationship. He's now avoiding me, even though he agrees with me about circ. So I am in a similar boat as the OP, so to speak, and really don't know what to do but protect myself at this point (and there's no way I can speak to the mom about this)!

[Mommiska]

Originally Posted by NaomiMcC

Okay...I know I'm goiing to get totally flamed for this but...here it goes. You told her your opinion. You gave her the facts but in the end it's still HER decision. How would you feel if you wanted a homebirth for example and she constantly nagged you about your decision? About the risks? About the dangers etc etc. Wouldn't it grate on your nerves? You've given her the info. She has chosen to ignore it. While it may be an issue near and dear to you, you've done what you can do. Leave it be. And to cut your sister out of your life because of this seems quite extreme. I would rethink it.

Hey - you knew we weren't going to agree with you! But I'd like to answer your question honestly...

I did have 2 homebirths. And I did have a couple of friends try to gently talk me out of it - too 'risky', etc.

And you know what? It didn't bother me. Why? Because I was the one who had done the research and they hadn't at all. I knew that homebirth, in a low risk pregnancy (I sail through pregnancies and had already had two very quick, normal hospital births), was just as safe, if not safer, than a hospital birth.

The facts were on my side with my decision to have a homebirth, and I knew those facts and could share them with my friends. So they backed off, because they didn't have any answers to the information/studies I shared with them.

This is the exact opposite of what happens when someone tries to share circ info with parents who want to circ. Inevitably, the circing parents have given NO (or very little) thought to their decision to circ. It's a gut reaction, based on the fact that Daddy is circed (and doesn't want to think there is anything wrong with his penis) and the fact that 'everyone else' is doing it (and they don't want to be different from all their friends).

It can be hard to break through an ingrained mindset - and American culture sees circ as 'normal'. It can take a lot of pressure/information/talking to get through to some people. And the facts are clear that circumcision is painful, damaging and completely unnecessary cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting infant. Those facts need to be shared...if I was a parent planning to circ in ignorance, I would hope that people would continue to share the truth about circ with me.

[LavenderMae]

We (collective/general) need to be more vocal and never let it drop because cutting on baby's genitals is not okay and it needs to end. It should have never become just another parental choice. It's absurd that anyone has the right to cut off parts of a baby's genitalia.

I would not stop trying to inform your sister and I really hope she starts listening. You are doing the right thing!

[Leiahs]

I replied to her email with some questions more than 24 hours ago. Now, I have no idea how often she checks her email, or whether she even has internet access in her house. A month ago, she and her husband were both unemployed and not sure if they would even make rent. So I'm not sure how often she checks her email (my mom does live just a few blocks away from them...). And if baby is due in just a couple weeks, I'm wondering how long I should give her a chance to reply before I start really getting on her case.

And for the record, I haven't been harassing her at all. When she told me the baby's sex around 20 weeks, I said, "Oh, I'll have to send you a packet on circumcision." <sister laughs in a way that could be taken as nervous/uncomfortable, subject changes.> I finally got around to getting everything together and getting to the shipping office, and I mailed it to her. Several weeks later, I also sent an email with the article of the canadian boy's death. Then she replied with her decision. So, definitely not harassment by any means. Not that I would feel bad about it, if it would save my nephew's foreskin.