Sister decided to circ - what next?? Update #58 - Page 3

[vaughnmama]

Don't give up. Only one person tried to talk to me one time about leaving my 2nd baby intact. And I caved to my husband (& the other pro circ voices.) My friend was sweet and didn't want to pressure me...but now I wish she would have tried harder. (Of course it's not her fault!) But I think if she would have bombarded me with the truth and the research, I could have come around in time and had a leg to stand on when discussing it with my DH. My one conversation with my friend came just days before my son's circ appointment. Hopefully you have a lot more time to work on your sis. Let your sister know that you are telling her this because you truly love her. I regret circumcising my boys with every ounce of my being. The guilt and anger and shame I felt after I finally realized what I had done threw me into the worst depression of my life.

[Revamp]

Originally Posted by Leiahs

I replied to her email with some questions more than 24 hours ago. Now, I have no idea how often she checks her email, or whether she even has internet access in her house. A month ago, she and her husband were both unemployed and not sure if they would even make rent. So I'm not sure how often she checks her email (my mom does live just a few blocks away from them...). And if baby is due in just a couple weeks, I'm wondering how long I should give her a chance to reply before I start really getting on her case.

Give her a ring.

Not neccessarily just about this topic and not neccessarily right now but you can talk about something else and then bring it up. Emails are far too easy simply not to reply to but phone conversations tend to be a little trickier to evade. You mentioned that she sounded nervous when she laughed and if that is the case then you probably stand a chance. Just be gentle and try to stay away from the M word.

[SleeplessMommy]

Talk to her on the phone. You have nothing to loose. If your sister won't talk to you for a while, its all in a good cause. She will get over it.

One idea would be to try to talk her into delaying the procedure until after the baby is two weeks old. (Because an earlier circ may interfere with breast feeding and bonding)

Emphasize the fragility and "preciousness" of the tiny newborn baby. "The first week after the baby is born is a special time for the mother to spend with her baby and be in awe of the perfect baby she has made." (note: this is all about the Mom, not the baby) "After the circ, there is going to be lots of mess with vasaline and oozing. It's going to be hard to take care of for a few days. Don't you want to have your special time with the baby first?" (note: this is still all about the Mom, what is best for her!)

Insist that a parent be present while the procedure is done "to make sure the baby is OK". The presence of a parent makes it more likely that proper anesthesia will be used.

Waiting 2 weeks keeps the circ $$$ out of the hospital's hands. Also, after 2 weeks, the baby can cry much louder and the mother will be much more sensitive to and responsive to the babies cries.

There is a small possibility that either the non-hospital doctor will talk them out of it, or they will change their minds. :

[KBecks]

Originally Posted by Mommiska

This is the exact opposite of what happens when someone tries to share circ info with parents who want to circ. Inevitably, the circing parents have given NO (or very little) thought to their decision to circ. It's a gut reaction, based on the fact that Daddy is circed (and doesn't want to think there is anything wrong with his penis) and the fact that 'everyone else' is doing it (and they don't want to be different from all their friends).

It can be hard to break through an ingrained mindset - and American culture sees circ as 'normal'. It can take a lot of pressure/information/talking to get through to some people. And the facts are clear that circumcision is painful, damaging and completely unnecessary cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting infant. Those facts need to be shared...if I was a parent planning to circ in ignorance, I would hope that people would continue to share the truth about circ with me.

This is very well said. I want to add something about the "it's their decision thing." While it can be argued that the right to decision does not belong to the parents, I think it's very important when talking to parents about circ to treat them with respect. I understand this is an emotional issue for intactivists. At the same time it's an equally emotional issue for parents. Parents are in charge of the well being of their child. When anyone tries to step in and dictate how the child should or shouldn't be cared for, parents understandably feel defensive and tend to shut down and block out the "know it alls."

So, yes, information should be shared, absolutely. I think it is important to share the information in a respectful way, that honors that the parent's aren't *stupid* for considering circ, it's probably more that they are unfamiliar with what it means to be circ'd vs. intact. I also think that intactivists will succeed more by trying to be persuasive without getting too emotional. If someone presented me with great information, that's great, but the more drama surrounding the attempted persuasion, the more the receiver will want to shut down and block out the message.

So, I'm advocating for being persistent, but calm and nonjudgemental. I get discouraged when I read posts ripping parents who consider or end up circing and calling them stupid and barbaric. I think that attitude unfortunately hurts the progress of convincing parents to choose intact sons.

[NaomiMcC]

KBecks...this is what I meant. In the end, it's still their decision whether others like it or not. It's fine to give them the information, but if you badger, they'll shut you out and that'll be the end of it. You'll be no further ahead. you gave the info, all you can do is hope they follow it. That's it.

As a sidebar...(and I'm not posting this to be a PITA but...) what about people who circ for religious reasons? How do you get them to 'change their minds?' especially when it could be a large reason as to why their doing it?

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by NaomiMcC

KBecks...this is what I meant. In the end, it's still their decision whether others like it or not. It's fine to give them the information, but if you badger, they'll shut you out and that'll be the end of it. You'll be no further ahead. you gave the info, all you can do is hope they follow it. That's it.

As a sidebar...(and I'm not posting this to be a PITA but...) what about people who circ for religious reasons? How do you get them to 'change their minds?' especially when it could be a large reason as to why their doing it?

we aren't allowed to talk about religious circumcision here, but I know that, in the past, when people need info about not circing in certain religions, they just ask for PMs on it. There are a lot of resources out there through various organizations.

[Collinsky]

My sweet baby brother and SIL got their son circumcised. Everything else they worked so hard on (the birth, breastfeeding, cosleeping, babywearing, etc) and made really thoughtful, careful choices for their little boy. You can't make choices for people. You can only present them with the information you have, and speak about your experiences and ideas... what they do with it is up to them.

It's very sad.

[Mountaingirl3]

I tried my very best, but my dear sister also circ'd. She regrets it.

I'm all for being respectful and not using inflamatory words like barbaric. But, I'm glad that I went beyond just giving her factual information. I let her know how strongly I felt about a newborn baby suffering. Our discussion got so emotional (this was extremely difficult for me because I'm not a confrontational person). I finally cried that "it's his penis, it should be his choice". All this did convince her, but she still bowed to her dh's reasonless desire to circ.

My point is that if I had held back, I would feel so guilty now. She and I both know that I risked our relationship to try to keep her son intact.

[Leiahs]

Well, Sis replied. I asked her 4 questions, she answered them (and you could hear the foot-dragging tone, even through the email). She read most of what I sent her, including my personal letter, and did not view anything I put on the CD for her. She and her husband both "feel like" its the right thing because it's what they've both always known all their lives (and *ahem* they were both virgins upon marrying), and she claims they feel the exact same way on the topic. They have not talked to a doctor and don't know who would be performing it.

Then after answering my questions, she goes on to ask if the questioning was necessary. Because you know, it seems to her that I'm telling her that she and her husband are in the wrong, even though she's sure I didn't mean it that way. (I didn't say anything, just asked 4 questions.) And could I please back off? She knows I probably mean well, but she's feeling pressured by me, and she doesn't like that because it's her and her husband's decision to make, not mine. And she doesn't mean to be rude.

I sent back a heck of a long email. I was not mean or angry - I simply laid things out clearly for her. I told her outright that it has absolutely nothing to do with her or her husband, it is all about the baby, whose decision it should be, whose future it is, etc. You all know the drill. I reiterated that she needed to watch a video, and listen to it. I linked to the subtitled YouTube video. I asked if she was willing to do that to her son just because it's what she's familiar with.

I again shared my own experience, my wish for my husband to be intact. How her son and her daughter in law might wish things to be different. How she only has to look at it for 5 dang years. I reiterated complications, I shared Calen's story. I shared what was posted here about pain medications and looking for complications if she insists on going through with it. I challenged her to discover functions and purposes of the foreskin, and continue to think about the future of her son and whether her being comfortable is worth any of the risks involved.

I told her it was okay if she never wanted to talk to me again, or if she wanted to be mad, but I could not stand by and say nothing, or "back off" just because she thinks it's not wrong. I just can't let her go into it ignorant. And I told her I was willing to risk our relationship to make sure she knew, that's how much I care. And in no uncertain terms, I made it clear that there is no gray area - infant circumcision is wrong. Girl or boy. It's his penis, her and her husband's preferences should not be engraved on him.

We'll see if she talks to me after this, even without me being mean or hateful at all. And you know, at this point, I don't much care. I know I've said everything I can. If she still goes through with it, I won't really want to talk to her for a long long time anyway. And I won't feel guilty at all about her son. I'll still cry for him, if they do it, but it won't control my life. My hands will be clean and my conscience clear.

Let's hope some good WA state doctors back me up, or that anything I said actually gets through to her. I know I have you all here, but sometimes IRL, I feel like such a lonely voice in this world.

[Quirky]

You've tried so hard. Good for you. I hope they listen!

They're in Washington State? Aren't they aware that circed boys are in the distinct minority there now? Maybe the reverse "locker room" argument would work....:

[Leiahs]

I did point out the statistics in WA state, Quirky. But apparently that doesn't matter, because they just want to circ because it's what they want. No other frickin' reason. Grrr.

[guestmama9908]

If she does do it and grows to regret it later she will have no excuse.
She will have to suffer that guilt knowing that she did this unnecessary thing to her son while knowing the consequences.

[hakunangovi]

Becky, you have my utmost respect and admiration. You have tried every avenue available to save your nephew. Had you not gone all the way with this, I suspect that you may have wondered what more you should have done. Like you said - your conscience is clear. Good for you !!!

[titania8]

you have done everything you can. i hope that she will watch the video and see what she "wants". fingers crossed for your nephew.

[Revamp]

You have clearly tried very hard and it would seem that you have tried very calm. I hope that your efforts will pay off and your endevour will be successful.

[LionTigerBear]

s Becky. I would have done the same thing.

[LavenderMae]

Becky, you have done great! I only hope she starts listening.

[Leiahs]

Good grief, well, my sister is absolutely beyond hopeless.

She says she watched the video and was fine throughout, although she was "skeptical" about some of it, because they didn't show whether or not the baby had anesthesia.

She says if her son wants a tattoo at age 15 or 16, she won't allow it. But, and I quote, "At one week old, I feel I have the capability of making decisions for my son. True it will affect him for the rest of his life, but at the age of 18 or however old he gets and he decides to hate me for something that I chose for him at one week old, that is his decison."

Also claims that her husband has studied shock because he wanted to become an EMT, and "if the baby were to go into shock the baby would die. At one week old my son is not old enough to make his own decisions and no man in his right mind would make this decison on his own at the age of 12 or 18 or however old he wants to be to make it." (bold mine)

Obviously I have a good comeback for why no man would make this decision when he were older, anyone have any good links about the fact that babies DO go into shock?

Oh, and apparently I "went too far" by implying (or explicitly saying? I can't remember which) that she would be held accountable by God for doing something like this with no frickin' reason.

[Tinker]

Try this:
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...ision_quiz.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenic_shock

[Leiahs]

Just sharing my reply, which may have been a little over the top, but it was emotionally honest.

>your dh> says, if babies were to go into shock, they would die. I don't personally know the truth of that, but I do know that babies *have* died from circumcision, many many of them, and I do know they experience shock. In fact, in January 2007, a baby died in london after a heart attack which happened just after the circumcision. Coincidence? (see http://www.circumstitions.com/News24.html#died and http://www.cirp.org/library/death/)

Van Howe (1996, p. 431) reported that, "Newborn males respond to circumcision with a marked reduction in oxygenation during the procedure, a cortisol surge, decreased wakefulness, increased vagal tone, and less interactions with their environment following the procedure..." Rhinehart (1999) in a report of clinical cases noted that the only response available to the infant is shock, wherein the central nervous system is overwhelmed by pain, followed by numbing, paralysis, and dissociation. Possibly, dissociation of the traumatic experience and emotional pain may be employed by the infant as a psychological defence (Chu & Dill, 1990; Noyes, 1977; Rhinehart, 1999). While some babies have been described as being "quiet" after circumcision, Rhinehart concluded that the observed stillness most likely represents a state of dissociation or shock in response to the overwhelming pain.

In addition to this, there are studies linking circumcision with post-traumatic stress disorder as far as into adulthood, and increased pain responses clearly visible even 6 months after circumcision. What a lovely thing to decide that you are "going to have to go through". What about the baby?!?! He will experience it far far worse than you ever will. He will endure the pain, and the recover, NOT YOU. I am amazed at your lack of compassion for such a new and fragile human being.

Are you even listening to yourself? You said "if he decides at the age of 15 or 16 to go and get a tatoo, that is something permanent, I will NOT let him do that to him. At one week old, I feel I have the capability of making decisions for my son." So you are completely unwilling to allow him to get a tattoo, which is permanent, yes, but at least only marks his skin. But you want to make a permanent change to HIS SEXUALITY before he even has a voice to share his opinion. Do you think, as he sat in heaven waiting to come to earth, that he thought, "Gee, I sure hope my mom and dad decide to chop off that foreskin when I'm born. I sure don't want to have everything Heavenly Father sent me to earth with."

You then went on to say, "no man in his right mind would make this decison on his own at the age of 12 or 18 or however old he wants to be to make it." GEE, I WONDER WHY. ONE - because it is PAINFUL. TWO - because it is what he has known his whole life. THREE - because it has a purpose and they can't imagine being without it. There ARE men who have made the decision when they are older. Some of them are glad for their decision, and many regret it. Many of them note the difference in sensation, like going from color vision to black and white. But at least it was their decision. If you can sit there and say that you're going to do it for him because there's no way on earth he'd ever choose it for himself, you are more callous than I thought. Every human being has a right to their bodily integrity, and it is not right for ANYONE to take that away from him, especially not the two people who are supposed to love him most on this earth.

Just for your curiousity's sake, the video did include anesthesia. It was topical, and not left on nearly long enough. (This was noted on another website's summary of the video.)

This is not my opinion. This is fact. Circumcision harms, every single time. ( http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...rells_2007.pdf )There is documented loss, for every single baby, and multitudes of dangerous risks on top of that. The supposed benefits of circumcision are all easily refuted, with real life studies, and if you have any you are especially leaning on, throw them my way, I will happily shoot them down. No other industrialized country in the world routinely circumcises infant boys for non-religious reasons. And even in America, rates are near 50%, because people are starting to pay attention. It saddens me that you are not.

I crossed no line by stating that you will be held accountable for your decision in this. I know it's true. I don't think you'll be damned, no. But I do know you will be held accountable, and only God knows what measure He will take. You are responsible for this person's well being, and circumcision is harmful and abusive. Yes, abusive. Causing any infant to go through pain, and removing non-diseased, functioning body parts to suit your personal sexual and cosmetic preferences, that is abusive. And I'm sorry for your son. Truly. I'm sorry you feel like I crossed a line, but it's my unfortunate responsibility to make sure you have information. Ignorance is bliss, they say, but with knowledge comes responsibility. Sometimes I wish I never knew this stuff. Especially when I have to watch my own family inflict it on their sons. But I would be held accountable for not sharing, and not trying my best.

I've probably said all I can say to you, your ears seem closed and your mind set, without ever having actually studied anything on the matter. Apparently "opinion" is worth more than cold hard facts, to you. And your own son's preference, which he wouldn't discover till adulthood anyway. And let's not forget how you think you know better than God's own design for boys, so you'll go and modify His perfect creation, despite His admonition that our bodies are our temples, and knowing you wouldn't so much as let your son put a permanent picture on himself. I guess a permanent scar on his previously perfect reproductive organ isn't as bad, huh? At least I know my hands are clean of your son's blood.

And she said she would love me and talk to me no matter what. I wonder if it's true