So, midwives (or smarter doulas, or anyone, than me) why did this happen?

[DoomaYula]

I just read that a woman who had sextuplets by c-s (30w, pretty good for 6 babies, right?) then went into heart failure because of the excess of blood in her body. She's fine now, apparently she went into ICU for a few days but is better now.

Why, exactly?

[Rockies5]

Do you have an article you can post?

I'm not a cardiologist, but woiuld like to read about it too.

I think sometimes when our bodies are stressed to the limit, medical emergencies (like heart failure) happen. I've never heard of naturally occuring sextuplets, and don't believe humans were made to have so many babies at once.

Could have been the stresses of pregnancy, a complication of the operation, medication used durring or after..or something else.

[mwherbs]

they don't focus enough on what happened to mom-- could have been
Peripartum cardiomyopathy- or some sort of surgery/anestesia related event-- I really don't know

[DoomaYula]

Here's the article

The heart problems were due to the huge volume of blood that Jenny Masche, 32, was carrying in her body while pregnant, Dr. John Elliott said at a news conference at Banner Good Samaritan Medical Center. When the babies were delivered Monday, some of the extra blood was lost and "stretched her heart and blood vessels to a very, very critical level," Elliott said.

[3_opihi]

I'm reading that as, her body produced a humongous amount of extra blood to sustain her and six other people...and then at the time of delivery "some extra", meaning probably "a whole heck of a lot of blood" was lost and it strained her heart.

[MsBlack]

Yeah--

Humans weren't made to carry 6 babies--the strain on all systems would be gigantic. Even if a woman can get enough food/drink/rest during such a pregnancy to nourish herself and all 6, and maintain adequate heart and other organ functions, the drastic *change* from pregnancy to non-pregnant could be enough to threaten life just by itself. The fact that such multiple pregnancies most often end pretty early is to me evidence that so many babies is 'too many babies' for the way women are designed--the body tries to relieve itself of the excessive work as an act of self-preservation/survival.

think about it--many women, even with a normal amount of blood loss during and after birth, have the shakes, feel cold and/or dizzy, etc, for a few minutes or more. As I understand it, that is about the sudden loss of heat, weight, fluid (water and blood, even if a normal amt) from her body. Homeostasis is an important mechanism for protecting our lives--the body works to keep conditions more or less the same (which is why it can be hard to begin losing weight, for instance). We can often manage sudden changes, but our bodies immediately strive to return to 'usual and normal conditions' on the inside through compensating mechanisms in every system. With too sudden a change in conditions, we have reactions like the one I just described for some women after birth, tho most of the time this is a passing thing and the body is able to soon right itself--the heart soon adjusts to a lesser amount of blood moving through, temperature regulation kicks into gear, etc. A woman might get 'small help' in the form of extra blankets for awhile, drinking fluids and replacing calories soon, but nothing more is needed.

But when I think of the change involved in birthing 6 babies?! Especially surgically (right? didn't read the link). That is a huge change that would extremely challenge the body's capacities to adjust soon enough to sustain life.

So, it could be said that that woman's body had a perfectly 'normal' reaction to severely abnormal conditions beyond the usual capacities to compensate for change in internal conditions.

[DoomaYula]

Uhhhhh, yeah, the sextuplets were born by c-s.

And another woman had sextuplets the same day, x-country, at 22w, but 2 of them have passed away.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

One of my issues with fertility stuff. We're humans, not dogs. We're not supposed to carry litters.

[Mamma Mia]

Originally Posted by SublimeBirthGirl

One of my issues with fertility stuff. We're humans, not dogs. We're not supposed to carry litters.

I'm sure women with 6 babes were trying really hard to endanger their lives and their babies' lives by getting pregnant with a bunch of kids.

I think your comment is very offensive.

[kate3]

The reason the mom's heart failure was so pronounced was that she didn't loose enough blood during the delivery. Between the c/s and the delivery of 6 placentas, she should have lost a fair amount of blood, but actually only lost about what you would expect from a singleton.

When the babies were delivered and she no longer had to support them, that huge expanded volume overloaded her heart. It can happen to any woman, regardless of vaginal vs c/s or singleton vs multiples. Granted, heart failure and cardiomyopathy are very rare in a singleton pregnancy. It's a more significant issue with higher order multiples.

That mom was very sick. How serious the situation was got really toned down in the media. I hope she doesn't have any long term cardiac complications or persistent cardiomyopathy.

[jennica]

But what about the Dionne Quintuplets?

A naturally occuring pregnancy that yielded five identical girls, born at home in 1934, assisted by two midwives, and for the latter births a doctor (who of course stold all the fame). The babies survived, the mother survived, there were no serious complications.

So are mutiples higher than two or three something that is inherently dangerous, or are those births and pregnancies just generally so medicalized that we will never know anymore? Or, are women who have trouble concieving, also at higher risk for having trouble giving birth or having a healthy pregnancy?

[Jane]

It's similar to the situation with Twin to Twin Transfusion syndrome. It's the twin getting the extra blood that is at risk first. The heart can't function well when there is pressure on the outgoing side. It should be pumping blood into a free space, not one under pressure. When the lungs are full of fluid, the pressure backwards on the heart can cause heart failure. When the whole body is full of blood, the problem is that much worse.

[DoomaYula]

Originally Posted by Apricot

It's similar to the situation with Twin to Twin Transfusion syndrome. It's the twin getting the extra blood that is at risk first. The heart can't function well when there is pressure on the outgoing side. It should be pumping blood into a free space, not one under pressure. When the lungs are full of fluid, the pressure backwards on the heart can cause heart failure. When the whole body is full of blood, the problem is that much worse.

Interesting... my twins had TTTS and laypeople always thought that my recipient twin was doing better because he was "bigger" and healthier looking at birth. But my donor was healthier when they were born.

[Violet2]

Originally Posted by SublimeBirthGirl

One of my issues with fertility stuff. We're humans, not dogs. We're not supposed to carry litters.

No we're not and one of my issues with these sextuplets was the fact they are the product of irresponsible medical treatment and advice both on the part of the doctor and the patient. I hope there was an ethics review. High order multiples are preventable during fertility treatments.

V

Pregnant with ONE via IVF

[DoomaYula]

To go with the fertility thing, my friend who was doing her FINAL round of IVF after years of fertility issues, her doc really wanted to do 4. She was totally aghast, she wanted to do 2. They compromised on 3.

One of the eggs split and she ended up with quads anyway! :

At any rate, she said the doc really pushed her to do four.

[Violet2]

Originally Posted by YumaDoula

To go with the fertility thing, my friend who was doing her FINAL round of IVF after years of fertility issues, her doc really wanted to do 4. She was totally aghast, she wanted to do 2. They compromised on 3.

One of the eggs split and she ended up with quads anyway! :

At any rate, she said the doc really pushed her to do four.

The doctor was unethical to force more risk onto the patient than the patient was comfortable with.

I worked with two clinics and a team of 5-6 REs over 4 years. If anything, they were extremely conservative and very vocal about not wanting to cause multiples. That should be the norm.

V

[Bellejar]

higher order multiples

Just FYI sextuplets do occur naturally (not saying that the human body is meant for them), but the chance is less than one in a billion to conceive them naturally. The first recorded set of sextuplets was in the 15th century. Also there was one case I read about with a set of sextuplets that had four identical quadruplets within the six...

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by jennica

But what about the Dionne Quintuplets?

A naturally occuring pregnancy that yielded five identical girls, born at home in 1934, assisted by two midwives, and for the latter births a doctor (who of course stold all the fame). The babies survived, the mother survived, there were no serious complications.

So TRUE! EXACTLY!

And Mrs. Dionne went on to have even more children. In all, she had ten children. The doctor, who went out to visit after the birth, told Mrs. Dionne not to get too attached to them since they would probably not live anyway. She kept them warm by the stove.

Two are still living, Cecille and Annette; all were epileptic.

You know the rest. They lived, and the doctor, with the help of the Canadian government, kidnapped them and used them as show pieces, until they were returned to their parents.

[jennica]

Originally Posted by applejuice

So TRUE! EXACTLY!

And Mrs. Dionne went on to have even more children. In all, she had ten children. The doctor, who went out to visit after the birth, told Mrs. Dionne not to get too attached to them since they would probably not live anyway. She kept them warm by the stove.

Two are still living, Cecille and Annette; all were epileptic.

You know the rest. They lived, and the doctor, with the help of the Canadian government, kidnapped them and used them as show pieces, until they were returned to their parents.

Actually, the midwives kept them alive with the stove and donated incubaters. Once they lived a little while the doctor took over and removed them from the home. Mrs. Dionne had other children already, and it was decided that the home was unsanitary.

Also, only Emily was epileptic. She died young from a seizure.

Their birth is totally amazing. Also the fact that they were identical and not fraternal, I don't think that has ever happened before with anything higher than quads, except in this case. It was theorized in one book that the egg actually split six times, but Mrs. Dionne likely lost that child midway through the pregnancy when she reported having some bleeding.