Belief in a no pain labor/birth? - Page 5

[greenthumb3]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

1) "Other cultures". I'm never sure what to think about this one. I haven't done a lot of research into what other cultures expect from birth.

"Culture plays a significant role in attitudes toward childbirth pain, the definition of the meaning of childbirth pain, perceptions of pain, and coping mechanisms used to manage the pain of childbirth. According to Schuiling and Sampselle (1999, p. 77), nurses can provide comfort in the presence of pain. Pain does not have to be eliminated for women to be comforted, and comforting diminishes pain. The significance of comfort cannot be over emphasized (Jimenez, 2000)." Another perspective here.

I learned a lot from Adrienne Lieberman's book about dealing with pain in labor and her chapter about the concept of pain in a cross-cultural perspective was intriguing and seemed to resonate better with me than the pat answer given by some people that " all women in Africa would birth their babies and then work in the fields 5 minutes later".

If you look at illustrations of Native American women, women from other centuries in England, etc. etc, you'll find them in various positions that ease "pain" and that help a woman's body work productively (ie: hanging from a tree branch or pulling on a rope tied to the ceiling). In one culture (can't think of which one/s), a special blend of herbs to dull the pain was given, and stories go on and on. These are cultures where there are no doctors, nor hospitals, but the reality of childbirth was as real then as it is now.

There are also stories and accounts given by women and also be attendants that describe painless births. Read about some here, if you are interested.

To really make sense of the question, one needs to read both (many?) perspectives on the question.

There is so much to read and learn about. To OP: Yes, painless labor and birth is possible for some (many?), but if it doesn't happen for you, should you feel guilty, as though you'd done something wrong? NO! Perhaps ask if things *could* have been done differently to facilitate less pain, but accept you did your best. This allows for learning and growth in a healthy way. If you want a pain-lessened or free delivery, should you give up b/c someone else had pain in labor? NO! Make decisions that fit your own needs and have faith in something.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by greenthumb3

"Culture plays a significant role in attitudes toward childbirth pain, the definition of the meaning of childbirth pain, perceptions of pain, and coping mechanisms used to manage the pain of childbirth. According to Schuiling and Sampselle (1999, p. 77), nurses can provide comfort in the presence of pain. Pain does not have to be eliminated for women to be comforted, and comforting diminishes pain. The significance of comfort cannot be over emphasized (Jimenez, 2000)." Another perspective here.

I learned a lot from Adrienne Lieberman's book about dealing with pain in labor and her chapter about the concept of pain in a cross-cultural perspective was intriguing and seemed to resonate better with me than the pat answer given by some people that " all women in Africa would birth their babies and then work in the fields 5 minutes later".

If you look at illustrations of Native American women, women from other centuries in England, etc. etc, you'll find them in various positions that ease "pain" and that help a woman's body work productively (ie: hanging from a tree branch or pulling on a rope tied to the ceiling). In one culture (can't think of which one/s), a special blend of herbs to dull the pain was given, and stories go on and on. These are cultures where there are no doctors, nor hospitals, but the reality of childbirth was as real then as it is now.

This is all interesting stuff (I'm familiar with quite a bit of it), but I don't see how that has anything to do with other cultures having "pain free" births. It means they actually work with the pain, manage the pain, and expect the pain to be bearable - that's not the same thing as not expecting, or not having, pain.

There are also stories and accounts given by women and also be attendants that describe painless births. Read about some here, if you are interested.

I've heard and read many of these stories. I just don't consider them to be terribly relevant to the OP. I've talked to women who had pain-free c-sections, too...I don't think that means that surgery only hurts because we expect it to, yk?

There is so much to read and learn about. To OP: Yes, painless labor and birth is possible for some (many?), but if it doesn't happen for you, should you feel guilty, as though you'd done something wrong? NO! Perhaps ask if things *could* have been done differently to facilitate less pain, but accept you did your best. This allows for learning and growth in a healthy way. If you want a pain-lessened or free delivery, should you give up b/c someone else had pain in labor? NO! Make decisions that fit your own needs and have faith in something.

I'm interested in the fact that you're mentioned "no pain" and "less pain" all bunched up together. I'm pretty sure I've had less pain (with the caveat that I haven't ever pushed out a baby) than many women in labour. I just don't see where that ties into having a "no pain" birth.

[sphinxie]

I certainly think it's possible to have a pain-free and orgasmic birth, but I think it's probably related to more than just belief.

[jljeppson]

Having had it both (painful births and pain free ones) ways would I say that there was something wrong with my painful births? My hospital birth, yes. My other home births, no. There is absolutely nothing I could have done more to deal with my posterior baby than follow what my body told me, which in this case was to lie down giving him the opportunity to readjust. There are things I could have done to make my 1st HB less painful, which frankly was only painful for the few minutes I was in transition, which was to lie on my side when I needed to lie down instead of on my back (wasn't exactly thinking clearly just then) and it probably would have been pain free the whole time as well. The 1st birth it was my forgetting to not lie on my back that caused me pain, the 2nd birth it was the positioning of the baby. So for at least one I couldn't have done anything to erase the pain, though I did do things that made it bearable. Again I don't think there was anything wrong with that birth, there were circumstances beyond my control that made it the way it was, and the delivery is one of my most treasured memories. I don't think pain in child birth is essential (In what way WOULD it be essential? Physically, spiritually, emotionally? We know children learn and develop better when taught without using pain as a teaching tool, so why would we as adults need it?), it just happens. Sometimes you have it, sometimes you don't but in no way is it needed. The Catholic church many, many yrs ago (we're talking centuries) used to feel that pain was essential for the birth of a child and a mother that didn't feel enough pain would be punished or in extreme cases killed. Maybe that's (not the Catholic church in particular, but that type of mentality) is how we came to believe that pain was a normal part of childbirth. When midwives were prevelant dr's were only called in to assist with the complicated delivery's and around the time drs started taking over the birthing process in America the main people they were seeing were the wealthy women who weren't very active and whose diets and clothing styles weren't healthy. These women knew nothing about their bodies and it's not surprising they had hard births. Also, when women started to go to the hospital it was a cold unwelcoming place where everything was designed to facilitate the dr's comfort during delivery not the mother's and they in turn again had harder more stressful delivery's. That's part of where the dr "all birth is dangerous and painful" mentality came from. It was all they knew. Somehow we have bought into the "Giving birth always hurts and that's the way it is" line. It's not true and does not apply to everyone woman. I would predict as birth education (TRUE education, not what the masses are taught in sex ed) improves and spreads the number of pain free births will rise. Not all women will have it that way and not all women who have one will have it with every birth (case in point, me), but it won't matter because we will have done it OUR way. I have been happy and satisfied with all my birth experiences (even the not as thrilling 1st; overall I birthed the way I wanted to and I definitely went home with the prize), pain or no pain. Just knowing I have had the choices I've had and birthing at home has made it possible for me (for some women it may be the hospital that makes them feel more free) to have the 2 pain free births I've had gives me hope that this last has a chance to be pain free as well. Whether it is or not, I will have birthed my way and I will be happy with my birth and my baby. I can't think of a better way to end that stage of my life than at home with my family welcoming my daughter? into the world.

[greenthumb3]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

This is all interesting stuff (I'm familiar with quite a bit of it), but I don't see how that has anything to do with other cultures having "pain free" births. It means they actually work with the pain, manage the pain, and expect the pain to be bearable - that's not the same thing as not expecting, or not having, pain.

Well, I guess it depends on how one looks at it. I think this is relevant to what the OP asked regarding no pain labors/birth. I would love to hear what she is thinking about this thread. I shared those examples not to prove or disprove one idea, like "all birth should be painfree" but to offer a round-about idea of what pain in birth may look like in a cross-cultural perspective. I don't think it's fair to say that my opinion is fact, and I know I appreciate when someone else shares information and lets me decide. What is true for ONE mother, may not be true for another, and that includes it being okay if others don't agree with me. I chose to respond to what you wrote as it brought to mind some ideas and I wanted to expound on them. Since you do not agree with my post being relevant to the OP, I can agree to disagree. I respect your opinion.

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I've heard and read many of these stories. I just don't consider them to be terribly relevant to the OP. I've talked to women who had pain-free c-sections, too...I don't think that means that surgery only hurts because we expect it to, yk?

If this is what you thought I was implying, then my message got mixed up somewhere. I was sharing the stories as one example of what was possible for some women. It was not meant to be *the* example of what birth should be, or make light of someone's medicalized birth.
FWIW, it is hard to decipher everything a person believes based on a few posts. It would take a real-life conversation of an hour or two to really understand all I really believe to be true about labor, birth, and most importantly, how I feel it applies to me. It sounds like your perception of me is that I am someone who thinks all women just need to relax and change their minds and they can all have pain-free experiences. . If that is what you believe, then I say, no, that's not true, and I would love to talk more in depth with you privately, if you want to know all I do believe. I do believe strongly in a woman's ability to choose how she will approach pregnancy, labor and birth, but I do not say that that stands independent of other factors influencing the birth. I could liken it to being a main ingredient in a multi-faceted recipe. Could you agree with that idea?

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I'm interested in the fact that you're mentioned "no pain" and "less pain" all bunched up together. I'm pretty sure I've had less pain (with the caveat that I haven't ever pushed out a baby) than many women in labour. I just don't see where that ties into having a "no pain" birth.

Maybe it doesn't. Maybe the OP just wants to know one answer. I prefer to share what I feel is relevant and if someone disagrees, that's okay with me. I feel all responses are valid, whether one agrees with them or not. If the OP objects, then maybe I'll stop posting along my own train of thoughts and move on elsewhere.

Thanks for taking the time to read my posts and I appreciate your insights and your willingness to discuss them.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by greenthumb3

If this is what you thought I was implying, then my message got mixed up somewhere. I was sharing the stories as one example of what was possible for some women. It was not meant to be *the* example of what birth should be, or make light of someone's medicalized birth.
FWIW, it is hard to decipher everything a person believes based on a few posts. It would take a real-life conversation of an hour or two to really understand all I really believe to be true about labor, birth, and most importantly, how I feel it applies to me. It sounds like your perception of me is that I am someone who thinks all women just need to relax and change their minds and they can all have pain-free experiences. . If that is what you believe, then I say, no, that's not true, and I would love to talk more in depth with you privately, if you want to know all I do believe. I do believe strongly in a woman's ability to choose how she will approach pregnancy, labor and birth, but I do not say that that stands independent of other factors influencing the birth. I could liken it to being a main ingredient in a multi-faceted recipe. Could you agree with that idea?

I definitely agree. Despite the fact that I was replying directly to your posts, I was also responding to the concept that we can more-or-less make our labours pain free. I think that the idea that our expectations are a big part of the labour process is a very valuable one to get "out there". The constant repetition of messages such as "give me the epi in the parking lot" and "get the epi" and "no woman should have to experience pain in labour" is dangerous, imo. I'm just wary of making women who do have pain for physical reasons feel as though they only feel it because they aren't ready enough, yk?

Maybe it doesn't. Maybe the OP just wants to know one answer. I prefer to share what I feel is relevant and if someone disagrees, that's okay with me. I feel all responses are valid, whether one agrees with them or not. If the OP objects, then maybe I'll stop posting along my own train of thoughts and move on elsewhere.

Thanks for taking the time to read my posts and I appreciate your insights and your willingness to discuss them.

I hope you don't stop posting. I'm bouncing my idea back off what you write in a very non-structured "first response" kind of way...and it's helping me think through a lot of this stuff. The ways that our thinking, experiences and culture affect the way we labour is on my mind a lot right now. I'm going to be labouring with a scarred (3X) uterus in a few months, and am aware that I have a lot of issues regarding fear and failure (and other things) to work through between then and now. I think this thread is making me balk a little, because I start feeling as though I should also be trying to "re-program" myself into a pain-free birth...which seems like a lot of pressure.

[mwherbs]

you 2 keep posting- lots of info to share and explore. I am enjoying the reading

[greenthumb3]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

The ways that our thinking, experiences and culture affect the way we labour is on my mind a lot right now. I'm going to be labouring with a scarred (3X) uterus in a few months, and am aware that I have a lot of issues regarding fear and failure (and other things) to work through between then and now. I think this thread is making me balk a little, because I start feeling as though I should also be trying to "re-program" myself into a pain-free birth...which seems like a lot of pressure.

Mmmm...I see. That makes a lot of sense to me. With this information in mind, I wish you all the best on your preparations for labor and your baby's birth. I know the details of your experiences differ from mine, but I do understand some of the mixed feelings of trepidation and hope, especially regarding fear and failure as it relates to childbearing and preparing for the next birth. I am due in about 3 weeks and wondering what goal I am shooting for, or what this experience will be like, as I had a traumatic experience first time round, a very positive experience second time round, and have a question mark for this baby's birth. I like the idea of pain-free labor and birth. Moreso, not so much the "freedom" from pain, but the fulness of joy, the welcoming, no matter the physical sensations. Do what you feel will work for you to have an experience that will be meaningful to you.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by greenthumb3

Mmmm...I see. That makes a lot of sense to me. With this information in mind, I wish you all the best on your preparations for labor and your baby's birth. I know the details of your experiences differ from mine, but I do understand some of the mixed feelings of trepidation and hope, especially regarding fear and failure as it relates to childbearing and preparing for the next birth. I am due in about 3 weeks and wondering what goal I am shooting for, or what this experience will be like, as I had a traumatic experience first time round, a very positive experience second time round, and have a question mark for this baby's birth. I like the idea of pain-free labor and birth. Moreso, not so much the "freedom" from pain, but the fulness of joy, the welcoming, no matter the physical sensations. Do what you feel will work for you to have an experience that will be meaningful to you.

Thanks.

Perhaps some of this for me is that the pain is something I see as part of the process. With dd and ds2, I felt no pain (well, a little with ds2, but I was in very early labour when I was prepped). In fact, I felt nothing physically. I was given a spinal and cut off from my own body for the duration of the surgery. That feeling of being disconnected from myself bothered me - a lot. (I hate anesthetic so much that I have dental fillings done without freezing, simply to avoid the numbness.) I think that at this point, the idea of working for a pain-free birth seems almost counterproductive. Perhaps with more time to consider this, I could separate the pain from the other sensations, but right now, working towards pain free birth feels like working towards the numbness I hate so much...

I'm completely babbling at this point, but it's helping...

[jljeppson]

Pain free doesn't mean feeling free. With my 2 7/8 that didn't hurt I still felt the contractions, near the end I had to concentrate on them, but they just didn't hurt. Just felt like any other exercise. A runner will feel their muscles working while doing a workout, but it won't hurt per se. Though with the times I did feel pain, I have to say I almost enjoyed it. Along the lines of, that's one less to get through until the babies here. And, you're doing this at home and doing great YOU ROCK. That type of thing. I get this feeling of euphoria, before/during/after, partially because I'm doing something that my sisters and most of my friends insist can't be done without massive amounts of pain meds and I'M DOING IT WELL. Totally egotistical, I know, but I actually love labor and delivery, pain and all. Gives me this massive sense of validation and makes me want to scream, "I am woman hear me roar!" After this last I don't want any more kids if I have to be the one that raises them, but I have to say that being a surrogate has been a thought in the back of my mind simply because I love being pregnant and delivering. If I could pass the baby off at the end for someone else to get up in the middle of the night with (not this baby, just any I acted as a surrogate for LOL), I would be all good.

[Maggirayne]

Reply to OP

I read Spiritual Midwifery (the 70's printing?). That was encouraging. The women in it had lots and lots of supportive people. I also read somewhere that it hurt as much as you expect. I knew it would hurt, but knew there were ways to deal with what pain came.

I don't consider myself to have a high tolerance of pain, (hate, hate, hate cramps). But a pp said it helped tremendously knowing there was a purpose and the baby was coming. I agree wholeheartedly!

I had uncomfortable contractions all night, went to hospital at 3:30 am, got in the tub, slept 20 mins. around 7 am and woke up with strong contractions. I was able to have intermittent fetal monitoring, (after initial hookup, they did it so I could move with the monitor on). Ctx got strong at 10-ish am, so got in tub again (not enough room to move in arggh! ) Got out 11:30-12? and wanted something just to take the edge off. I was feeling panicky when it got bad; my DH was GREAT, talking to me, helping me relax thru ctx. The nurse checked me and said I was going to deliver SOON--10-15 mins.. I ended up with her telling me not to push, and pushed twice and was done at 12:57 pm. There was a LOT of pressure from her head, but I didn't tear or need an episiotomy! I'm small-boned and only 5'4". I had a 6lb 7oz girl, and I was thinking as they cleaned me up, "That wasn't so bad."

It hurt more than anything I'd ever felt, but I'll do it again as soon as I get pg again!

So it was worse than anything I'd ever felt, and not as bad as I expected. HTH!

[pookel]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

In fact, I felt nothing physically. I was given a spinal and cut off from my own body for the duration of the surgery. That feeling of being disconnected from myself bothered me - a lot.

That actually makes sense to me; I did have some sensation during my c-section and I enjoyed being able to feel what was going on. I had an epidural, not a spinal, and I felt something like gentle tugging and pressure on my belly as they did the surgery. I didn't want it to *hurt* - after many hours of painful labor I was glad for the relief - but it was good to have some sense of being connected to what was going on, too.

[huggerwocky]

I don't believe that for a second. I did find contractions sort of ok to deal with, but that tail bone....OUCH!

[SuperMoM2GTO]

Wow! alot has happened on this thread in the few days Ive been away!

I really appreciate everyone's posts on this subject. You all have given me alot more insight then I was counting on I really realize now that I need to prepare for the pain. I have finished Ina May's book (which is really great and I highly recommend) and between what Ive read through books/the wonderful threads here @ MDC & my own reasoning I feel that, more then anything, coming to terms with the event that will happen, understanding the whys/hows, and learning to let go is ultimately the way I need to focus my attentions.

I do believe there will be pain. How much, I believe, is going to depend on how comfortable I am in the birthing enviroment and the love and support of the people around me.

[thismama]

I don't think it only hurts if we think it will/we are fearful/not open enough/. I read that stuff when I was pg and I think it was a set up. I thought I'd be all orgasming during my labour, for real. NOTHING could have been further from the truth. It was unbelievable, unimaginable, no-way-is-this-in-my-head PAIN.

We don't tell people that pain comes from their beliefs in other situations. Why do we do this with women in childbirth? Hmm.

ETA - I just noticed the OP is a first time mama to be. Hope my post doesn't freak you out. I think many women have a lot less pain than I did, I think it is physiological. I also think it's good to be prepared for it, get your birth support ppl to learn how to do decent (read: HARD!!) counterpressure, etc. Despite the pain, my birthing experience was one of the highlights of my life.

[greenthumb3]

Good for you, Alicia! Best wishes on your baby's birth!

[greenthumb3]

Originally Posted by thismama

We don't tell people that pain comes from their beliefs in other situations. Why do we do this with women in childbirth? Hmm.

Adding more of my "cents" ...the fact that a woman feels pain in labor/birth is, I believe, not a woman's failure at "just believing". (There are people who do believe that labor/birth were/are not meant to be painful: Dr. Dick-Read, for instance.)

I do think childbirth, in general, is also very different than getting, say, a root canal with no medication. I don't believe the idea that childbirth, in general, must be excruciatingly painful. I don't know if birth was meant to be totally pain-free, but the fear-tension-pain cycle does make some sense to me.

I think there is much more involved in the entire experience of conceiving, growing, laboring and giving birth to a baby than just mental preparation. Obviously, from examples given by mothers along this thread, lots of things come into play. However, I think there are some interesting things to think about, like you mentioned, having a support system, as well as understanding the physiological aspects of labor (what is actually happening in her body at certain points), proper nutrition--things that can help a mom feel *less* pain during labor and birth.

Yeah, totally beating a dead horse by now. Fun, though.

[ericswifey27]

Originally Posted by kerikadi

I wouldn't consider my labors painful but pushing is another story. Pushing wasn't bad for my first two that weighed 6/8 and 5/12 with little heads.

Having said that, I don't care how relaxed you are when something comes out of your vagina weighing 9 pounds 8 ounces with a 14.5inch head it's going to hurt! Or an 8/8 baby with compound presenation - OUCH! I wasn't really in pain until baby was presenting. Thankfully I push them out fast

Keri

For me it was the opposite. My most recent labor at home was very painful, I was not prepared for that kind of pain. I was expecting a much easier birth than with my first, but it wasn't, although I would not trade the experience for anything. Now the pushing, the pushing felt GREAT. It was not painful at all. Loved it!

[wannabe]

If you look at illustrations of Native American women, women from other centuries in England, etc. etc, you'll find them in various positions that ease "pain" and that help a woman's body work productively

But in England they were still terrified of birth, and of dying in childbirth. Just because they had ways to try and help doesn't mean they were all confident and excited about the prospect of birth.

You all have given me alot more insight then I was counting on I really realize now that I need to prepare for the pain. I have finished Ina May's book (which is really great and I highly recommend) and between what Ive read through books/the wonderful threads here @ MDC & my own reasoning I feel that, more then anything, coming to terms with the event that will happen, understanding the whys/hows, and learning to let go is ultimately the way I need to focus my attentions.

For me the realisation that no matter how much it hurts I probably won't die, and it will eventually end are things I wish I'd come to before I laboured!

[thismama]

Okay, sure less fear helps some. If you are all tensed up, unsure what is going on and terrified, of course it is going to hurt more. Sorta like a trip takes longer when you are not sure where you're going, anyone notice that?

But dude. I don't know about anyone else, but I had some PAIN. Hardcore full on pain. Begging, screaming, contemplating suicide PAIN. And all the knowledge and relaxation techniques in the world were not going to undo that reality.

I think the minimizing of the PAIN situation can be really offensive and a set up for women. Some women don't have pain, some women find the pain manageable. But that is not the case for everyone, and I don't think it's as simple and changeable as reducing fear and tension. Not by a long shot.