Can't I have any food rules? - Page 4

[maya44]

Originally Posted by limabean

Most toddlers I know, including DS, have no problem sitting at the table for 20-30 minutes and eating dinner. Is it really that unusual? (Edit: I know I'm going to get a rude awakening with my second child and come back here to eat my words. )

Even when DS was tiny he was a part of our mealtime experience. Back then, that may have just meant that he nursed while we ate, then when he got bigger he might sit in my lap and gum small pieces of my food, then he started sitting in his high chair and eating finger foods, and now, at 2.5 he sits down to dinner after he sets the table.

I guess it's not so much that we have "rules" about that as that it's just an expectation, on our part and on DS's part -- he doesn't know any other way and would probably be bewildered and ask me why I forgot about dinner if I gave him snacks while he played rather than having us sit at the table to eat.

My kids also never had a problem sitting 20-30 minutes at this age. I think you are right in saying if its just the expecation and you all sit down, many kids (not all) will sit with you.

[Decca]

which in turn led me to reading Ellyn Satter's books. Anyone else familiar with them?
Very generally, the premise is that adults have the responsibility of "what" and chidlren have the responsibility of "how much, if any".

I LOVE her book Child of Mine a lot and recommend it often. I grew up with the requirement that I must clean my plate, and snacks were a rare treat, so I had a really hard time understanding my own hunger cues when I was a young adult. It's also helped me let go of the anxiety that my young toddler must eat, that he's not eating enough, etc. etc.

[NYCVeg]

Originally Posted by limabean

Most toddlers I know, including DS, have no problem sitting at the table for 20-30 minutes and eating dinner. Is it really that unusual? (Edit: I know I'm going to get a rude awakening with my second child and come back here to eat my words. )

Yeah, I have to say...my experience dining with toddlers (family, friends) is that most of them can sit quite happily and enjoy a meal with the family for 20, 30 minutes. We just went out to brunch with all my parents' grandkids plus a family friend and her child--so the kids were infant, 13 months, 16 months, 2.5 years, 3 years--and no one had trouble sitting through the meal (well, the baby pretty much slept through it, so maybe she doesn't count ). I did have dd on my lap part of the time, but that was really it. I'm sure there are exceptions, of course.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by limabean

Most toddlers I know, including DS, have no problem sitting at the table for 20-30 minutes and eating dinner. Is it really that unusual? (Edit: I know I'm going to get a rude awakening with my second child and come back here to eat my words. )

Even when DS was tiny he was a part of our mealtime experience. Back then, that may have just meant that he nursed while we ate, then when he got bigger he might sit in my lap and gum small pieces of my food, then he started sitting in his high chair and eating finger foods, and now, at 2.5 he sits down to dinner after he sets the table.

I guess it's not so much that we have "rules" about that as that it's just an expectation, on our part and on DS's part -- he doesn't know any other way and would probably be bewildered and ask me why I forgot about dinner if I gave him snacks while he played rather than having us sit at the table to eat.

A big : to this. So far both of our kids have ust been at the table for the whole meal since they were tiny babes. Our meals rarely last longer than 20 minutes; it's never occurred to me to allow them down from the table before we're all done, and neither of them have ever freaked out in a high chair or booster wantign to get down. Our almost 3-1/2 yr old now sits in a regular chair and still sits for the whole meal on his own. And beleive me, he is NOT a calm, sedate child ...it's just been the thing we do since the beginning.

[ameliabedelia]

We'd actually ALL be healthier if we ate more often in smaller amounts. Humans are really a snacking animal by nature.

That is not true. Animals which graze (horses, cows, giraffes, zebras, rabbits, etc.) are meant to eat all the time. Carnivores (lions, tigers, etc.) are the other extreme..they make their kill, eat it and gorge and then may not eat again for days. Humans, (as omivores) are somewhere in the middle. Throughout ALL of history, humans have had set meal and snack times. They were too busy doing work (whether hunting, gathering, building huts, cooking, preparing food, tending animals, farming, etc., etc.,) to eat all the time. It is really only in our modern society where people have the "luxery" of eating very frequently (already prepared foods, lots of leisure time, sit-down jobs. You can't exactly be munching while plowing the fields.

Of course babies need to eat very frequently, as as children get older I think it is a natural progression to go from nursing/eating often to set meal and snack-times.

To the OP: I think your children are actually at different stages in this regard. I think your 4.5 year COULD learn to do set meals and snacks, however the (just turned) 2 yo probably can't, so that is kinda hard situation to be in..where children are close in ages, but at different stages of where their expectations are.

[Houdini]

I have four kids and we subscribe to the family mealtime idea for dinner. Breakfast is a get when you are ready kind of thing. I have one who eats immediately and one that waits about 10 minutes and two that can't stand to eat before they have been awake at least 30 minutes (I am like this as well). Lunch is hit and miss. Sunday we always sit down together for a lupper of sorts (lunch/supper) b/c it it typically closer to 2 before we sit down. The kids usually snack for dinner.

My kids are good to sit for at least 20 minutes, usually longer. We do follow the whole idea of once you get down, you are done b/c a few of our kids would do the eat, play, eat, play thing and it just doesn't work for our house. We enjoy meals together b/c we can all sit and see how everyone's day has gone. It is also the only meal dad can join us for b/c he is gone before we get up in the morning.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by ameliabedelia

That is not true. Animals which graze (horses, cows, giraffes, zebras, rabbits, etc.) are meant to eat all the time. Carnivores (lions, tigers, etc.) are the other extreme..they make their kill, eat it and gorge and then may not eat again for days. Humans, (as omivores) are somewhere in the middle. Throughout ALL of history, humans have had set meal and snack times. They were too busy doing work (whether hunting, gathering, building huts, cooking, preparing food, tending animals, farming, etc., etc.,) to eat all the time. It is really only in our modern society where people have the "luxery" of eating very frequently (already prepared foods, lots of leisure time, sit-down jobs. You can't exactly be munching while plowing the fields.

Of course babies need to eat very frequently, as as children get older I think it is a natural progression to go from nursing/eating often to set meal and snack-times.

Thanks for posting this. I wanted to correct the misinformation from a historical/anthropolgical standpoint, but never got around to it.

Humans all over the world sit down for meals. They rarely graze!

[heartmama]

That is not true. Animals which graze (horses, cows, giraffes, zebras, rabbits, etc.) are meant to eat all the time. Carnivores (lions, tigers, etc.) are the other extreme..they make their kill, eat it and gorge and then may not eat again for days. Humans, (as omivores) are somewhere in the middle. Throughout ALL of history, humans have had set meal and snack times.

Some, not all, and it would be difficult to say for sure whether even "most" did, because what makes it into written record isn't necessarily what was happening for all people at every level of any particular society.

I just read in a contemporary anthropology text, a native American recounting the meal routine in his boyhood community--foods were kept covered in a specific area, a kind of open air covered porch, and when you were hungry, you went over, got what you wanted, and ate. He described a pot of beans (I think) and stacks of tortilla-like breads...possibly fruit as well.

I've also read numerous references of contemporary nomadic and hunting societies, where foods are prepared and packed in the morning, and everyone just eats when hunger and opportunity coincided.

I don't know if "graze" in the sense that rabbits graze is accurate, but we have contemporary records of humans in different cultures who let individual hunger determine when they eat, as opposed to the clock.

[KLK7]

Originally Posted by smartair

We eat at the table. Once you are done you are finished. We have one snack between meals. You eat what is offered.

This is how I was raised. And as a result, by the time I was a teenager, I hid food, horded food, stole food, and stole money from my mother's purse to buy food. I was starving all the time and by the time I was 14, I was 5'8" and only 100 lbs. I am one of those people that needs to eat and snack a lot and still do. Something you might want to keep in mind.

[Houdini]

Originally Posted by smartair

We eat at the table. Once you are done you are finished. We have one snack between meals. You eat what is offered.

Originally Posted by KLK7

This is how I was raised. And as a result, by the time I was a teenager, I hid food, horded food, stole food, and stole money from my mother's purse to buy food. I was starving all the time and by the time I was 14, I was 5'8" and only 100 lbs. I am one of those people that needs to eat and snack a lot and still do. Something you might want to keep in mind.

See this all goes to personal experience. For every child who this had a negative impact on their will probably be a child that had a positive impact. It really has to be watching your child's cues mixed with what works for the family.

We had set mealtimes and never really had snack time at all. We did have snacks after school once we started going, but no other times. I never did any of the things you mentioned above and never went hungry either. I don't have the metabolism you have as far as eating more often.

I wonder how many people have higher metabolisms that require food more often. I know there are people who do, but I wonder how common it is. I have five brothers and three sisters. I don't recall any of us having to eat more than at mealtime and I don't recall anyone being hungry in between. Not to say they weren't and just didn't say anything, but it just never came up. My youngest brother is only five though, so maybe he will have the need food more often thing happen later.

[Electra375]

With my first I allowed grazing, it was very "in". But 4 kids later, no way. I simply do not have the energy to clean up all day from that or the time to waste on whether child 1,2,3, or 4 has eaten.

I think we have to teach our children good eating habits and there are pros and cons to just about everything out there.

But here is how it works in our house -
1) Food is only allowed in the kitchen (food in the vehicle only on vacation or long trips)
2) We eat at the table, sitting down. It creates a good habit for later in life and for those who struggle with weight issues one of the first lessons is to set a nice table and eat there and only there. It cuts down on mindless snacking and added pounds.
3) The children set the table, it's routine, it's a job for the family

As for meals, maybe b/c I've already trained them, I'm not sure -- but they get up and help themselves to cereal in the morning. I'm nursing the 4th right now, so I'm not up as soon as they are hungry. By the time I'm finished, they are finished and I clean up.
Sometimes they need a snack, sometimes I just serve lunch b/c it's close enough to noon time.
Lunch is fixed and served by me usually, when I was on bed rest my oldest fixed lunch for the others.
We have a snack in the afternoon or else I'm fighting off hungry children while I'm cooking dinner, like about now, it's 3:30pm
Dinner is served between 5:30 - 6:30 most evenings. If my dh is not home, we eat without him. If he is going to be in in just a few minutes and the kids are not appearing to be famished, then we wait.

I don't think learning to eat when it's served is a bad thing, depending on the age of the child. A toddler needs to eat when they are hungry, but they can still sit with the family at meal time. I'm not catering to every "I'm hungry", if I did, I'd never leave the kitchen. Of course, there are always options that do not require my doing anything - apples, bananas, grapes, cherries, GF crackers, etc. Water from the door.

I don't ask if they are finished anymore, I did for a while, it's counter productive b/c 1) raw milk left on cereal for long is gross, 2) toast left out is stale and chewy, if it's GF forget it and 3) the answer is yeah, I'll eat it later and later never comes. Bottom line, if they leave the table they are probably done, exceptions do apply... relative to age of child.

Eventually they learned to eat it fresh and ready or not at all. I don't think they are harmed into thinking there isn't any food for them to eat when they are hungry. There is plenty in the house that is for sure.

Children will eat when they are hungry. If a child decides at dinner they are not hungry, they sit with us until the adults are finished. If they come back later, I will heat up left over dinner. I will not fix a 2nd meal. If they eat their dinner and are hungry before bedtime, they can have an appropriate snack. This is for my 5 and under children. My 8 yr old is now learning that he will eat dinner at dinner time or not at all, he's old enough in our opinion to eat with the family when the family eats. If he eats dinner that is served and is still hungry, he can have more dinner or if it's later an appropriate snack.

I generally do not have any problems with breakfast b/c they are hungry. I have a 3 yr old who is not a morning eater, she will drink a yogurt if she is hungry and we need to leave the house. If we have an appt to get to, I make sure I'm up and they are eating. I will even wake my dd up a little earlier to make sure she will eat before we need to leave.

I will leave lunch out on the table during the week, if they don't eat it, depending on what it is. If it isn't eaten by dinner, it's dumped. I will say the 3 yr old is more likely to leave her food than the boys (5 and 8). This is a habit of laziness more than an actual decision I've made. After I get lunch together I'm just not up to putting it all away and usually the baby is screaming for his mimis by that point.

[mamaduck]

Our older child was willing to sit for meals at a young age. Our second was not willing to sit for more than 3-4 minutes. Wasn't a big deal. At 10 and 6, they both enjoy sitting down for a full length meal. (The older one, who always sat well for meals, is slightly overweight and the younger one is very active and fit. Don't know if there could be any relationship -- or if its just the way they are made.)

I work in a large montessori school, in the toddler wing -- some kids sit nicely to eat long lunches, other kids take 2 bites and then go look at books. The expecation is that they will all learn to sit through the whole meal. The reality is that in by preschool, some do and some do not. All of them seem to master it by grade school.

I don't think its at all fair to attribute an inability to sit through a meal to poor parenting, or too-low expectations. Of course everyone can cite their own strategies and experiences, and that is valuable. But when a parent posts that they *can't* make their child sit through a meal (which happens pretty frequently at MDC) it seems self-defeating to continue the struggle.

[Electra375]

..

[ZanZansMommy]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

Our older child was willing to sit for meals at a young age. Our second was not willing to sit for more than 3-4 minutes. Wasn't a big deal. At 10 and 6, they both enjoy sitting down for a full length meal. (The older one, who always sat well for meals, is slightly overweight and the younger one is very active and fit. Don't know if there could be any relationship -- or if its just the way they are made.)

I work in a large montessori school, in the toddler wing -- some kids sit nicely to eat long lunches, other kids take 2 bites and then go look at books. The expecation is that they will all learn to sit through the whole meal. The reality is that in by preschool, some do and some do not. All of them seem to master it by grade school.

I don't think its at all fair to attribute an inability to sit through a meal to poor parenting, or too-low expectations. Of course everyone can cite their own strategies and experiences, and that is valuable. But when a parent posts that they *can't* make their child sit through a meal (which happens pretty frequently at MDC) it seems self-defeating to continue the struggle.

:

My DS (20 mos) will not sit more about 2-5 min & that's it--he's done being at the table, but not done eating. I have no problem setting his plate onto our small snack table so he can come & go as he sees fit to finish his meal. I don't see how his actions now could possibly dictate what he'll be like when he's 6, 7 or 8. Even my DD (3.5) has a hard time sitting any longer than 15 min. I'm confident that as she gets older she'll be able to sit longer if she so chooses.

I don't agree with whoever posted that it's not possible to get a balanced meal by grazing. Why not? Sure if one grazes on crackers, peanuts, coke, popcorn etc..all day you're probably not hitting all the major food groups. But I graze all day long. It's innate to me. I have toast, & then 20 min later a protein shake & then maybe eggs or pancakes an hour after that & by then it's only about 10:15. Throughout the day I'll have a piece of chicken, maybe a small salad, a yogurt. I consider this pretty balanced. My children are the same way. They eat fruit all day long & crackers & chicken nuggets & carrots & raisins & whole host of other good & sometimes bad foods. I find that when *dinner time* comes around they're still interested in eating. So grazing doesn't affect their ability to get a balanced *meal* into their bodies. For us, grazing all day works & I feel like I'm honoring my children in letting them decide when they are hungry & when they should eat. We never follow a clock, we follow our instincts. Luckily for us, we are mostly all on the same internal clock.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

Our older child was willing to sit for meals at a young age. Our second was not willing to sit for more than 3-4 minutes. Wasn't a big deal. At 10 and 6, they both enjoy sitting down for a full length meal. (The older one, who always sat well for meals, is slightly overweight and the younger one is very active and fit. Don't know if there could be any relationship -- or if its just the way they are made.)

My kids too!!!!! My older DD could always sit through a meal and was a "good eater" and is now chubby. My younger DD was a wild thing as a toddler, is a picky eater, and is slender. Both now enjoy family meals very much (our schedule only allows a few each week, but the kids really look forward to them and treasure the time.)

Also having more than one kid makes me laugh when people talk about what they did and how their child is as if there is a direct correlation. You can do that exact same thing with another child and get a VERY different result!

All of them seem to master it by grade school.

I don't think its at all fair to attribute an inability to sit through a meal to poor parenting, or too-low expectations.

I have met school aged kids who don't know how to sit through a meal, but they come from families that never sit down to a meal. I think that having meals and assuming that at some point the child will enjoy them makes a lot of sense. Not having regular meals, on the other, really can lead to kids who just don't get it.

[hipumpkins]

You can do that exact same thing with another child and get a VERY different result!

that is sooo true!! We used brag what good parents we were b/c DD was not a picky eater. Loves..fish and hates chicken fingers.
Ds taught me that it was not my doing and I have since been humbled..that kid wont touch a piece of fruit wiht a 10 foot pole. and i am lucky to get a veggie in him a couple times a week. Celery at that!

[Janelovesmax]

For those moms who said that their tots didn't sit thru the meal for longer then 2-5 minutes, when did that change? My son is a 5-10 minutes sitter and I CAN'T WAIT FOR THAT TO CHANGE!!! I would love to have long family lunches/dinners, I'm all for that idea, but with my son, it's not possible. He is 2.

[MichaelsSahm]

In our home, we eat when we're hungry, we don't eat when we're not.
Recently we went on vacation to visit family, and they were so obsessed with eating at certain times, it made me sick, we're not all the same, we all have different eating habits. I am not the type of person to put a plate out in front of someone and say "eat this it will be the last meal for today" I think that will create bad eating habits.
I put out snacks that don't go bad, and just leave them there for my son to grab. I will fix meals, and if he isn't hungry I will warm it up when he is.

[BethsMom]

Originally Posted by kmisje

In our home, we eat when we're hungry, we don't eat when we're not.
Recently we went on vacation to visit family, and they were so obsessed with eating at certain times, it made me sick, we're not all the same, we all have different eating habits. I am not the type of person to put a plate out in front of someone and say "eat this it will be the last meal for today" I think that will create bad eating habits.
I put out snacks that don't go bad, and just leave them there for my son to grab. I will fix meals, and if he isn't hungry I will warm it up when he is.

our family is also like this - everybody has meals together but if one person is not hungry, no big deal, they will eat later if they want.. my dd has meals with the family but snacks a lot in between meals - cut up fruit mainly.

[cottonwood]

To the OP, that's never been an issue for us, because my kids don't really graze like that. But I guess if it were I'd just 1) not stress about a bowl or two being left out until they're done and 2) if we had to get going, take something along. We actually do that anyway, we live a ways out of town so that when we get out we're often gone for hours, so we need to have backup. Bananas are good for that, nuts, dried fruit...

It's interesting how different people think "healthy" is come by. To me it's a completely alien way of thinking that eating habits must be taught and learned. It just seems obvious to me that healthy eating is innate (unless that's been suppressed) and is about paying attention to your body's cues. I honestly don't see how people whose eating is controlled throughout childhood can maintain an ability to self-regulate.

I also don't understand the need to mandate a time for connecting. Not that sharing mealtimes can't be good, it isn't about that. It just seems weird to me that people can't find a way to get what they need from each other without being made to.