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Surrender - Page 2

post #21 of 70
bipolar disorder was my first thought too. In kids the mania part tends to come out more as aggression. I hope you find some answers.
post #22 of 70
(!)
post #23 of 70
Thread Starter 
Hollllllllllllllly cow

Let me start by saying we are on state insurance :
After getting the run around from social services
and the health department
and the school district
I have finally tracked down whoever it is who is in charge of doing evaluations on 4 year olds.

And she won't be in the office until July 9th

and most likely won't be able to do anything with ds until Sept.

Nothing like making a call for help and having it buried in the sand out in the middle of the desert!

yesterday was better....
and today started off well....

we're back to just putting him in the bathtub when he loses control


omg i just realized how that reads

He LOVES the water. Water soothes him.
If he is losing it and we can get him into the tub, he'll sit in there for HOURS (I kid you not!)

so.....as long as we are somewhere with a tub, we're okay
post #24 of 70
Max LOVES the water, too, and it is a SUREFIRE way to get him calmed down. Whatever does the job.
post #25 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal View Post

And she won't be in the office until July 9th

and most likely won't be able to do anything with ds until Sept.
Man, three months? It may seem like forever but that's a pretty short wait! We were looking at 9, got in on a cancellation after 2.5.

So, it could be worse!

And Bede is waterbaby too. Some days he takes 4 showers!
post #26 of 70
Thread Starter 
I'm not even sure what this will be when we get to talk to her....
its an eval through the school and then to write up an IEP for services through the district....

I'm not sure what to expect from them....we'll see....
post #27 of 70
Thread Starter 
wahhhhh

if they don't call soon I don't know what I am going to do

I am so at (past!) my limit for dealing with him making life hell for everyone else in the family

and then walking off with a smile on his face as if he were the greatest thing since sliced bread

I know a firm set of household rules is recommended...
but gawd I hate rules

Do you have a clear set in your house? What's on it?

I'd ideally just go with things like
Respect yourself
Respect each other and their belongings
Help when asked
Clean up when done
Gentle touches are okay

but....I don't think those would be effective 'rules' for him
He'd look at that and say "No. Never."
and so begins another battle......
post #28 of 70
I sooooo hear ya! I'm on SSD, but just since March and I've been going through hell with switching insurances - no gap in care my a**! And taking him to see 6 different places all of them looking at me like I must be on crack or something because he usually behaves very subtley when he is in close contact to a strange adult, or if i am right there and we've had some warm up time, he will be over demonstrative with hugs and smooches. Both don't give a tiny clue what's on the other end!!! They just look at me like I am nuts for wanting a child examined psychologically at 5.
post #29 of 70
**sigh** I just wrote a long reply to the rules topic and i had 'timed out' any way to keep yourself validly logged in longer?

Anyway, my family uses time outs on a tiered system.

1. a consistent place that is just quiet and private, not to punish.
2. no talk, no emotion. Just assign the time out. If Crispin doesn't go on his own I help him, but I don't talk except if he is really struggling I tell him I love him and walk away.

The reactions:

1.Sometimes, ok or makes a mad face and goes. Great - 'I'll let you know when it's 5 minutes'

2.Screams bloody murder the whole way there, but still on his own - you can come out when you calm down - this is an unspoken understanding from calm times, if I tell him this while he's mad, it makes it worse.

3.Shrieking puddle full of flailing limbs - I pick him up and walk him or carry him to his room, I try going for the chair and if he doesn't fight harder, great see #2. If not, I put him in bed and tell him I love him. He carries on for anywhere from 5 minutes to a half hour. Usually he either falls asleep or comes out in 20 minutes and says he's calm now.

4.In bed/chair for a half hour, still crying - this is my limit for Crispin. If he's been going longer than 20-30 min, he needs my help. Usually I crawl in bed with him and hold him, no words still unless he says something first, and then I only talk if it is calming, if he revs up at all, I quit talking.

When he draws blood, strangles his sister or me or other kids, etc.
This is beyond rules. It's totally out of bounds.
I still follow the behavior rules above but I also isolate him for a day, starting right away. I allow him books, crayons, paper, quiet stuff. No TV, no games or toys with batteries or that make noises. He stays in his room except for meals, which he sometimes declines. If he is successful in being calm, he can come out to ask a question, get a hug, go potty, get a snack. If not, then I tell him he must stay in there. He can call for me if he needs to go potty, and I check in with him every half hour or so. If he is succeeding, I will tell him he can come and go potty etc with out asking again.

Keep in mind - we live in a small 1970 trailer and there is very little room to spread out. We are on top of each other. I can manage this plan from the living room because his bedroom door is 9 feet from where I sit, I can hear everything he does in the bathroom even though it's down the hall.

I know this sounds like it won't work with a really out of control kid, but Crispin was out of control before he was born, he didn't sleep more than 2 hours at a time until he was 3, and usually only 6 hours a day. It took a lot of trial and error and cooperation between me, my ex, and my boyfriend. You know it's bad and not a bad kid when a freshly divorced dad and new boyfriend can sit around the table and try to problem solve as parents!

{{{{Hugs!!!!}}}} This can be so hard. I'm glad I found this thread.
post #30 of 70

Awesome Juv. Bi-polar questionnaire!!!

The Child Bipolar Questionnaire, an automatically scored 65-item questionnaire for parents that helps to identify bipolar symptoms in children, is available on the Internet at the Web site of the Juvenile Bipolar Research Foundation, www.jbrf.org.Before consulting a mental health professional, parents may find it helpful to keep daily logs for a couple of weeks to track the child’s mood, energy, sleep, and behavior.
post #31 of 70
Things will hopefully look up once you get the evaluation, and find out what services they can recommend.

It sounds like you need some help from a behavior interventionist (like me!) who can evaluate the household routines and see what to change that will help the whole family. Too bad he's not under 3 as early intervention generally works more with the whole family.

Household rules are important but much more important is routines with clear expectations, as opposed to rules. In general, children like your son need VERY clear guidance on how to behave appropriately, and then very clear reinforcement of those behaviors. "respect each other" is, IMO, meaningless. What is respect? How do you explain that to a 4 yo? Instead, you need to pick some very clear instructions on how he should behave in specific situations. Keep the guidance simple but specific. Instill routines throughout the day in which he can practice, and succeed at those behaviors. Reinforce him right away and very clearly for those behaviors and then build on your expectations as he meets them.

For example, clean up when done is a perfectly appropriate expectation - however, he may need something much more specific at first. Like: when you finish eating, bring your plate and utensils to the sink. When you get undressed, put your clothing in the hamper. When you are done with a toy that belongs in a box, put it back in the box. Help him do each of those things every day until he can, and is used to, doing them without being asked. Then add new ones.
post #32 of 70
Thread Starter 
but all of those things always *start* with a "NO." from him..and battle ensues.

I think tomorrow we are going to try to set new rules with clear consequences.

I wish I could clone myself
post #33 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal View Post
but all of those things always *start* with a "NO." from him..and battle ensues.

I think tomorrow we are going to try to set new rules with clear consequences.

I wish I could clone myself
I would suggest 123 Magic, then. You can get the book or the video from the library. The video is better I have to say, your description could be my daughter. I completely understand not being able to be patient anymore.
post #34 of 70
We have spent a LOT of time in bathtubs over the years, so I understand the power of that. If you have space outdoors at all, I would suggest a baby pool or just a big tub or something. It doesn't even have to be big, just enough they can wedge their bodies into it. Keep a bucket of cups and containers next to it that can be used to pour water. The warmth of the sun warms the water and it is a quick fix either as a foot bath, something just to get their hands wet, or a body bath.
post #35 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal View Post
We try to find ways to be away from him, instead of doing thing with him.
Because Every Single Time you try to do something fun with him, give him some positive attention, it gets turned around


I know--believe me, the mama guilt over that is overwhelming
and it sure isn't going to help the situation

I long to homeschool him...he is SO creative and loves to DO stuff
but I can't fathom it right now...boarding school sounds like a much better options
This sounds so familiar to me. I have a 5.5 yr old dd who was dx with ADHD/ODD last year. She's not physically violent but she is a very difficult child. I have to work hard every day to not let her behavior set the tone for the entire house.

It seems like all the positive attention in the world doesn't make a difference and, like you, I find myself avoiding her sometimes because if she's left alone she's calm. *sigh* I put most of my efforts into staying calm and just doing the best I can to get through the day. It's a real bonus if the day ends well.

Good luck with your upcoming appointment. Hopefully they can help you out.
post #36 of 70
Thread Starter 
my parents grabbed me From Defiance to Cooperation and The Defiant Child from the book store.

I read The Defiant Child already...It was interesting, but I'm not big on his put kids into their place tone.
His solution seems to be to make the kids, using whatever it takes, realize that the parents do own everything
and that the kids, if they want anything, must comply with the parental demands....

From Defiance to Cooperation seems to offer solutions more in line with how we parent....but I have to finish reading it to really say.

One thing I know we are bad about is following through on things...
we're both so tired.....today while we were out I told ds we had to do x or he'd lose tv...which of course he didn't do.
4 hours later we finally get home and I have to get dinner going because it is already late and ds3 needs me...and ds1 is going on about Forgotten Realms and Runescape...
and there sits ds2...in front of the tv...which is isn't supposed to be watching.

and I just let it go, because I just didn't have the time/energy to deal with the fight

Our library *does* have 123 magic on DVD! I'm going to get it on Monday!!
post #37 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal View Post
I read The Defiant Child already...It was interesting, but I'm not big on his put kids into their place tone.
His solution seems to be to make the kids, using whatever it takes, realize that the parents do own everything
and that the kids, if they want anything, must comply with the parental demands....
....Our library *does* have 123 magic on DVD! I'm going to get it on Monday!!
I am not making any case for the Defiant Child, though it is on my list to read. *But* I do believe that most children learn their place in a family organically, but others need a stern reminder of where they belong. 123 Magic does this very gently, but it is the same concept. Children are very gently reminded that they have a place and there are consequences if they leave that place. From the description you wrote or yoru child's behavior, he is holding the rest of the family captive. Please consider that he may need a kind of parenting that is outside what you hoped for.
post #38 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal View Post
Rochester is 3+ hours :-/

The closest developmental pediatrician on our insurance is over an hour....

but--I'm can't believe we wouldn't be able to find someone here that would be able to help.
Talk to your medical insurance company. They may be required to provide an in network option if no one is available within a certain distance.

Good luck. This is hard for you I know.
post #39 of 70
Thread Starter 
yeah......I think I do have to come to terms with that...
but Riley is so...I don't know--maybe what I would expect from one of those nanny shows on TV.

Of course most of his examples are teenagers who have become suddenly defiant--not kids who have been since birth.
And while they might share the same attitudes, I certainly can't expect my 4 yo to respond to things the same as a 16yo might...

He focuses on making sure the kids know that you CAN and WILL make their lives MISERABLE
and their power lies in being able to choose which you do--make them miserable or not.

As much as there are days I would take perverse pleasure in making him miserable....I'm not sure I could actually do it.

I know our biggest problem is consistency--we tend to let a lot of things go just to not deal with the fallout :

In reading about defiant kids I'm seeing how much of me is in there...
As a teen I was worse than a lot of the kids Riley is writing about in his book...

in other news...I filled out the hyperactivity screening test from add-plus.com
Thinking back to ds1 at 4, he places in not hyperactive....ds2 places in the severely hyperactive..
which is funny because I never thought of him as hyperactive...just very active

re: Insurance...well not it ends up that isn't even an option :

I can drive an hour to see someone where we used to live
or wait till September to even potentially see someone local.
The kids are on state insurance....which apparently means their health needs aren't important.:
post #40 of 70
I would drive an hour. It's totally worth it from your description.

I would also telling you that you HAVE to be consistent - it's the only way. That is really the most important thing you can do, even if you end up changing your method of response, whatever you ARE using, be consistent with it across people, places and situations.

When kids know that there is a chance they will "win", they will fight extra hard.
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