"Quirky Discipline Rules That Work" article on CNN.com - Wow - Page 6

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by fuller2

But. What I am trying to avoid in my parenting is the idea that just because you want something, you should be able to get it immediately.

[snip...]

I don't know. My totally unscientific observations seem to indicate to me that kids who are given every single thing they ask for--and who have parents who will drop everything and go out at 7:30 pm to the store to buy red popsicles because the child wants one--sometimes end up being very picky, whiny, and unhappy.

[snip]

I really dislike the idea that AP = "absolute maternal sacrifice and children at the center of every single moment," by the way. I don't think that's the intent at all.

I, for one, am not suggesting anything remotely like what you've described here.

And it's been a big thread, but I don't recall anyone saying anything like this.

I just want to clarify, b/c I would hate for someone to think that I disagree with the original article on the grounds that I think children ought to be given everything they desire--at any cost, or that that has anything to do with attachment parenting or gentle discipline.

I disagree with the article b/c I think it advises rude and disengaging behaviors, it perpetuates negative attitudes about children, and b/c it sounds like a recipe for DAMAGING rather than BUILDING relationships betw. parents and children, which is at the heart of AP (as I understand it).

[Lady Madonna]

We picked up "you get what you get and you don't throw a fit" at DD's preschool - and she says it more than I do! For us, it's usually about when you get what you asked for - say, cut-up mango - and then proceed to pitch a fit about the fact that it's not cut up *exactly* the way you want it - say, big v. small pieces, strips v. cubes. You *got* what you asked for, if you'd asked for "mango cut up in little pieces", you'd have gotten that. I'm happy to talk to you about how we could make the mango pieces smaller or whatever, but I am NOT going to have that conversation with someone who starts screaming or wailing instead of saying "oh, I wanted it in XXX pieces".

The one I use *all the time* that didn't get exerpted here is "I can't understand you when you speak like that". I'm willing to discuss pretty much anything - in a normal, reasonable tone of voice. Whining or yelling is not going to get a response other than "I can't understand you when you talk in that voice." When I get the request again in a normal tone of voice, I thank DD for using a voice I can understand, and we move forward with the topic.

Fundamentally, I see both rules being about managing interactions and working together in ways that make everyone involved comfortable and respectful. I won't have a conversation with an adult who is whining or screaming, and I try to work that into how I teach DD to interact with other people.

On the others ... I might have to start instituting the mom's off time - more to enforce it for myself than anyone else in the house. I can be lax about bedtime, and then I get cranky and frustrated. But I work well under pressure, even self-created artificial pressure, so a deadline might help!

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by Lady Madonna

I can be lax about bedtime, and then I get cranky and frustrated.

So let me ask you, when you get to that point would you find it more or less comfortable and respectful for your child to say to you, "I can't understand you when you're like this. When you speak nicely to me, I will listen?"

Wouldn't you rather hear something like, "Mama, I'm sorry you're upset. How can I help you?"

[thismama]

I'm kind of liking these rule suggestions. We do a few of them around here. Definitely respect for mama doing work. Not necessarily that she must be working, but don't bug me when I am. And don't moan about the characters on your plate, and other petty things like that. I'm all over that.

I don't care much about bedtime, but my daughter is a joy to be around most of the time. Maybe if ppl follow the rest of these rules, they won't mind so much about an early bedtime.

[Lady Madonna]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

So let me ask you, when you get to that point would you find it more or less comfortable and respectful for your child to say to you, "I can't understand you when you're like this. When you speak nicely to me, I will listen?"

Wouldn't you rather hear something like, "Mama, I'm sorry you're upset. How can I help you?"

I use the phrase "I can't understand you when you talk in that voice" because I *can't*. DD can get that pitch in her voice that truly pains my ears and all I can get is the whining, not the words. She can say the same exact words - even if they're rude or demanding - in her normal voice, and I will do anything I can for her. If she is unable to do that, then I know that there is a bigger issue behind it all, like she's tired or hungry or whatever, and I will deal with that in a kind, compassionate way. But I know my children, and I can usually tell the difference between the two.

Thanks, though, for implying that asking my child to use a tone of voice that doesn't set my teeth on edge means that I'm being disrespectful or dismissive of her feelings. :

I am not saying "you can't feel like that". I am incredibly careful to NOT be dismissive of any child's feelings, after growing up constantly being told "no, you're not really angry/sad/hurt".

I'm saying "please use a different tone of voice". DD can feel however she wants, and express it to me in any words she wants, but the whining sets me immediately on edge and, if continuous, makes me want to get far far away, not help her out. Saying that I can't understand her gives her a chance to reframe her request if she wants to; if she doesn't want to, she can make the exact same request with the exact same words, as long as she is not whining just because . She doesn't have to be "nice" - she just needs to NOT WHINE.

And I may get cranky and on-edge around my kids, but I don't whine at them. I reserve that for DH - though I do manage to avoid the squealing pitch DD seems to get to so easily. And believe me, DD has absolutely said to me "Mama, I don't like those words" or "those words aren't kind". Also, it is not DD's job to teach me how to manage my needs and emotions (though she certainly has taught me a lot about what's really important), but it is my job to help her learn how to get her needs met and express her emotions in healthy, positive ways.

So, while it might not work in your house, it works in ours, we all feel respected and heard, and I don't have to walk around with foam earplugs in all day in order to avoid bleeding from the ears because of whining.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by Lady Madonna

Thanks, though, for implying that asking my child to use a tone of voice that doesn't set my teeth on edge means that I'm being disrespectful or dismissive of her feelings. :

Ouch.

I think you might be hearing a tone in my posts that I don't intend.

I'm really trying to understand how people are hearing these rules in a way that is not rude. Because I can't imagine that I would appreciate someone talking to ME in that way. So I was trying to find out if others thought it was OK for someone to talk to THEM that way.

If you truly can't understand what someone is saying to you, then it's not really following that rule. You can't understand them.

If you're asking a person to speak in a way that doesn't set your teeth on edge (and I do that w/ my son), then, again, it's not that rule. I don't find it rude to ask someone to respect my tolerence for certain noises, sounds, voices.

But, the rule that this woman advocates talks about PRETENDING to not understand your kid:

This one requires almost religious consistency of application to work effectively. But, essentially, you simply proclaim incomprehension when your child orders (rather than asks) you to do something, whines, or otherwise speaks to you in a way you don't like. Whispering this helps; it takes the whole thing down a notch on the carrying-on scale. This is a de-escalation tool, so calmly repeat the rule a few times and don't get lured into raising your voice. A child who's whining or being rude is clearly seeking attention and drama, so use this as a way to provide neither.

And I just think this is so counter to what we talk about and advocate here, I'm really, really surprised that this is supported:

A child who's whining or being rude is clearly seeking attention and drama, so use this as a way to provide neither.

I don't know how else one could describe that, except as "dismissive."

I don't know....it just makes me sad to think about viewing and treating children like that.

So that's why I was asking how we might feel if we were treated like that.

I was pretty much treated like that, and I can't tell you how lonely and unheard I felt by my parents. And confused at why my feelings were such a threat to them. I don't know, maybe it's just me and my issues, but, this collection of rules really seems to defy what I thought I knew about AP and GD.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

So let me ask you, when you get to that point would you find it more or less comfortable and respectful for your child to say to you, "I can't understand you when you're like this. When you speak nicely to me, I will listen?"

Wouldn't you rather hear something like, "Mama, I'm sorry you're upset. How can I help you?"

I agree with this. Most of the time.

I do think there is a difference between crying/upset vs. whining. Whining drives me nuts and I am more likely to ask for a correction in tone... something like, "Can you use your regular voice?"

But I also think we say things to children that we would not want said to us, or that we would not say to other adults. And I think we often dismiss or seek to ignore children's emotions.


eta - I think the pretending not to understand is really manipulative and messed up. Why not just say: "I feel irritated when you do the whining voice, can you use your regular?" Or something like that. At least that is honest, you are giving the child information about where you are coming from that is true. Rather than lying to them, telling them they are not communicating in a way that is understandable, which I think tells them either a) their parent is lying, or b) they think they are communicating but the feedback is that they are not.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by thismama

I agree with this.

Just saving this for posterity........... :

Back to your regularly scheduled thread............:

[thismama]

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I don't know....it just makes me sad to think about viewing and treating children like that.

Makes me sad to think that I would be regarded as unloving parent who disrespects and damages her child just because I would like for my kid to use appropriate tone within appropriate situation.

My parents are the most loving parents in the world, and just because I was cut off and wasn't allowed to change my dress as we were leaving the house when I was 4 even if I went into a fit over it, doesn't mean I was damaged, disrespected, unloved, and don't care about social justice, or think that my parents don't care about my feelings... :

I am not promoting here child abuse, I'm not suggesting not to comfort your child when they are sad, I am not saying not to feed them, or play with them, I am suggesting to teach them that certain tone is not ok, and if you have ultrasensitive kid who will be hurt by the rhyme - don't use it!

If it works with my kid, and they laugh it off, and it helps them move on and not to make a big deal out of the color of popsicle - then don't think of me as a monster parent and don't feel sorry for my kid.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by Oriole

Makes me sad to think that I would be regarded as unloving parent who disrespects and damages her child just because I would like for my kid to use appropriate tone within appropriate situation.

Firstly, not one person has said that they think there is anything wrong with wanting kids to use appropriate tones. Or not fall to the ground kicking and screaming over every little thing.

But I do believe that there is a MUCH more resepctful way to do it than what this woman advocates.

Secondly, NO ONE has said anything about unloving or monster parents. Some people have jokingly called themselves "mean" or "evil" but no one has called people out like that.

[Dal]

monkey's mom, I love your posts. I just added to my facebook account, under the "about me" section, that I am chronically misunderstood. It looks like we're in the same boat!!! After adding that I'm chronically misunderstood, I quickly deleted it since I figured I would just be misunderstood anyway. I'm not sure whether that is progress. I find myself doing that a lot here lately too... if I bother to write anything at all. I find it hard (and annoying) to balance being myself and saying what I want to say with the art of trying to predict and correct for the many ways I'm going to be misunderstood or not come across as compassionate or sensitive and on and on (which is also important to me).

It seems to me that some people here are trying to train their children to be thus and so and others of us are more focused on living respectfully with our children and taking care of our relationships with them. I am not saying that the two are incompatible... but I find that the former mindset often gets in the way of the latter. The whole "children need to be taught" approach is foreign and distasteful to the mentality from which I operate.

I do not bend over backwards and dedicate my life to being my son's servant. I am way too much of a hedonist for that. I try to help him get what he wants in ways that work for everyone (me included!). This doesn't mean that there aren't times that he just can't have what he wants... but I don't throw snappy little "deal with it" lines at him. That reminds me... An ex of mine used to tell me to "deal with it" when I was pleading a case to him that was very important to me. Rarely have I felt as infuriated, misunderstood, and disrespected as when he would throw that line at me. I remember being so frustrated and thinking grrrrrrrr he just doesn't get it!!! and he doesn't even care!!!!!!

I find a lot of the popular parenting advice seems to make sense, but inadvertently promotes a lot of the negative traits it aims to squash (or other negative traits). E.g., parents are taught that they need to worry about their children "throwing a fit" over this or that in a store, taught to expect their children to do just this, and taught to view children and to respond to them in ways that end up encouraging them to throw fits time and time again so that the child can learn not to throw a fit. Remember... when they "throw a fit" be consistent (which often comes with advice that translates to being cold and sociopathic or at the very least dismissive or offering pretend empathy). I find this so frustrating!!! I also find it frustrating that I feel a strong vibe here telling me that I'm supposed to be quiet rather than say "Hey... this has not at all been my experience... and I know that it has not been the experience of other parents I know who practice nonviolent communication and consensual living (or whatever else autonomy-supportive parenting might be called)... our children are NOT 'throwing fits'... they get through toddlerhood without the allegedly to-be-expected intense fits of kicking and screaming in rage..."

If I dare to talk about that... I'll be read as holier than thou... People who make such a claim don't understand what other people are going through... we don't understand that different children have different temperaments... I do understand that there are differences... and I also KNOW that my son would be throwing HUGE fits if I engaged in power struggles with him or otherwise followed a lot of mainstream parenting advice.

[monkey's mom]

Thanks Dal! :

[LifeIZBeautiful]

seems they are geared toward older kids, beyond the young "they just don't comprehend this yet" group. I don't think they are all bad, so long as done respectfully.
The author's tone, IMO, is no big deal. She is writing to her audience--*us*--not children. I'll bet she uses gentle and respectful tones with her kids. Hell, who's to say she doesn't sing these rules to them in a playful voice ...

[Dal]

However my ex would say "get over it" to me... singing it or smiling or saying it in a gentle-sounding way and with good intent... it was still infuriating and humiliating for him to try to silence me and to basically tell me to shut up and that he was neither listening to what I had to say nor taking my point of view seriously. Sometimes it can be even more infuriating when the person is seemingly saccharine about dismissing one's point of view.