Examples of setting limits?

[Shell]

I'm starting to wonder if my dh and I are doing a good enough job of setting limits with our dd, who is just over 2.5 years. We have never let her have a full-blown tantrum. Sure, she tantrums enough (uh, too much), but we have always either distracted her, given in, or pulled out the boobies to calm her down.

For example, we live in a narrow townhouse with two big staircases, which we need to go up and down all the time all day long. She can most certainly walk up and down herself (but very slowly) but she insists that we carry her 99% of the time. She is a very verbal kid but not very physical (didn't walk until nearly 20 months), and I am cautious not to push her too much. She truly is far behind other kids her age when it comes to gross motor skills. But... how will she get comfortable walking up and down the stairs if she never does it? She is also getting heavy, and I am tired of stopping what I am doing all the time to run to her every time she needs to come upstairs. If I don't pick her up, she will yell "Mom!!! Pick me up!!!" at the top of her lungs, and eventually melt down fully. Is it really too exhausting to her and maybe she is terrified of having to do it all day long? Or is she just using me as her servant?

OK - maybe the staircase thing is a unique example, because there are some legitimate questions about that behavior. But there are certainly other types of tantrums or outbursts that are just run-of-the-mill toddler stuff.

I'd like to hear thoughts about my staircase dilemma, but I would also like to hear some real-life examples of how other momma's have set limits with their toddlers and what the outcome was. I'd really like to hear the details of how the tantrum was handled and resolved, and how long the whole ordeal lasted.

Also - I did say to my daughter today that starting tomorrow, she would have to go up and down the stairs by herself at least one time a day. I thought this might be a good compromise, in case she really has fears about it (which I imagine she does). She doesn't have to do it all the time (yet), but once a day is not asking too much. But we very likely will have to have a tantrum tomorrow in order to institute this policy. And what do I do if she never comes up the stairs? Can she sit there, sobbing at the bottom of the stairs for hours and hours? If she sobs for an hour, and then I wind up carrying her up the stairs -- then I really gained nothing! Again... I'd love to hear some thoughts from been-there-done-that momma's!

Thanks!

[alegna]

On the stairs I think I'd just carry her for now and not mention it for awhile.

My dd was ahead of the average on most physical things, she was doing the stairs before she was walking BUT, it's only been in the last year that she's been quick and steady enough to be practical.

I try not to make fights where there don't need to be. Health and safety- we do what we have to do, but I don't see any point forcing my will otherwise.

-Angela

[monkey's mom]

Yeah, I agree with Angela--I'd just let it go for now--no need to make it a power struggle.

Re. the not letting her have a tantrum: you might want to read the article on the Sticky, "A Cry for Connection"--it's a different way of looking at tantrums.

[Shell]

A couple of months ago I stopped trying to cajole her into going up/down the stairs herself, and I decided that I had to take her request at face value and have her feel supported. I would pick her up, no questions asked, whenever she asked me to. I wanted her to trust me that I was going to be there for her when she needed me.

But her requests are just getting SO obnoxious. She is demanding that we be there for her, and she used to go up and down by herself from time to time, but now she never does it. I really feel taken advantage of.

But it's not just the staircase issue. She is in the total throws of toddlerhood and she is throwing fits and making demands all day long. I did read the sticky article, and that was VERY insightful. Thanks for the suggestion. I would still like to hear examples of how other mommas have set limits with their kids. In other words... what is a real tantrum really like?

Thanks for your thoughts. I'd love to hear more.

[alegna]

I try to really look at what the issue is. If the issue is that she's being obnoxious about it, then address that. I am a lot more willing to deal with strange requests if they are presented in a polite manner. Heck I've even been known to serve ice cream for breakfast when it was a sweet request :

I don't think setting limits in and of itself is anything to be focused on. It can cause a lot of problems if you set limits just to set limits.

-Angela

[alegna]

Oh, and I head off, avoid, end early, steer clear and run from tantrums any time I can...

I don't see any point in letting her get all worked up if there's no need to. No one learns anything and it tends to ruin the whole day.

This isn't to say that I always buy a toy at the store or what have you, just that I try to avoid the tantrum.... sometimes by being silly, sometimes by distraction, sometimes with the boob....

-Angela

[eightyferrettoes]

My kid is that age, and one of his rules is "DO NOT PUT DIRT IN THE CHICKENS' WATER."

Also "Dirt stays outside!" (no bringing in fistfuls of potting soil and crumbling them on the livingroom floor.)

And "water stays in the tub" and

"don't mess with the gas stove."

I think you'll recognize the time to set a limit. I've got fewer "rules" than most people I know, because it's easier for me to focus on prevention than discipline, per se. I've got a shed to hide things in. So mine are mostly animal-rights, hygiene, and safety related.

Anyway, hmm. It is odd to me that she's so reluctant to climb the stairs. Two-year-olds seem to luuurve the independence of "I do it."

I'd say, give it another couple months and see if she doesn't start to enjoy it more... or maybe, instead of hopping up to grab her, just cock your head and wait a bit and see if she'll work it out herself.

Doesn't have to be a big hour-long stand-off, but you don't have to be her instant personal stair chaffeur, either.

[LilyGrace]

I don't get it. Why not let your daughter have a tantrum? I am a mom. I can empathise, I can help them cool off, but I am in no way responsible for another's feelings or making them happy. I will sit there with one of my sons and let them be angry if that is what they need so they can focus again. It is okay.
What is not okay is me bending over backwards and feeling abused. We have a saying here - your rights end where mine begin. I will be respectful to you, but I will not allow myself to be in a position where the line is crossed by you.
The last tantrum my youngest (5) had was around 3yo. I sat down very quietly next to him and had a conversation with him as he was getting so frustrated. "You really wanted to go. That must hurt a lot to see brother get to."- eventually holding him and speaking low as he calmed down. I didn't change the situation, but I did let him know that his feelings were valid. He had to make the decision about what to do from that point forward. He could choose to continue to be upset, or he could choose to take a deep breath and accept his challenges that day.

[mamaduck]

I went through the same staircase thing with my older son! It sounds so familiar. He was also very verbal, not physical, on the heavy side, and we lived in a townhouse with two flights of long stairs.

It was a hard dilemma.

One thing I'm realizing as they get older -- learning to be capable and competent sometimes means facing something a little bit overwhelmingat, and overcoming it. These experiences are helpful to their development. They feel good about themselves when they have things like this under their belts.

But it is very hard to pick and choose the developmentally appropriate tasks for pushing them a little. I mean, how can we know how she *actually* feels inside about those stairs? And how can we know when she'll feel empowerd by overcoming some difficult task, and when she'll feel traumatized??

You know better than anyone else, probably, what her feelings are like, so you have to be the one to figure it out.

My solution (because eventually I was pg. and could not safetly carry him up and down the steps anymore) was to hold his hand while we walked up and down the steps, and to stay right with him the whole time. He was not entirely and completely happy with this choice. He did throw tantrums the first few times. I sat with him, empathized, and gave him the choice to walk up holding hands or to walk up alone. Or to stay downstairs. Consistancy was important -- and eventually the issue went away.

We have never let her have a full-blown tantrum. Sure, she tantrums enough (uh, too much), but we have always either distracted her, given in, or pulled out the boobies to calm her down

Distraction and boobies are all good and fine. These are coping mechanisms for dealing with disapointment. Giving in, however, is something you might come to regret. At least if you do it very often. You might want to rethink this tactic a little -- or tweak it.

[Shell]

A bunch of thoughts...

In one regard, we're very lucky with tantrums. We have never had an in-the-store I-want-it tantrum (yet LOL). She believes me when I say that the ball lives in the supermarket, and we never ever go to toy stores together. We also don't have safety tantrums. She has been able to seperate certain absolutes from her need for tantrums, such as not touching the stove, not running in the street, etc.

Most of my "give in" stuff is more like her not wanting to put on her shoes when we go out, so fine, we won't put on your shoes. I know that if I can get her in the car seat, I can easily get her shoes on her before I take her out. Does she pick up on me giving in to her demands? I'm not sure. Some things are absolutes -- we do not eat cereal for dinner. Ever. (I don't want to fall into that trap - I have too many friends who all they can serve their kids is cereal for dinner). You want a cookie before dinner... well... maybe you can have a cookie.

One technique that has worked well for me is from Adele Faber's book on How to Talk so Kids Will Listen... of using fantasy. For example, "I really wish we could stay in the park FOREVER! Should we live here? Wow!" Her eyes light up for a second, but then she realizes that it is absurd to live in the park, and we probably have to leave at sometime -- maybe now is a good time to go. She laughs, and we go.

Mamaduck, I wish I could hold her hand up the stairs. I have and will certainly help her in any which way I can (if she wants me to), but it is non-negotiable. She DEMANDs that I come and carry her right away. I have gotten much slower in my response time to her, hoping that she will get impatient and just come up the stairs. The only time she does is when we are at someone else's house, but then only sometimes.

The reason why I am so scared of tantrums, is that I feel like she might be so stubborn as to never let the tantrum end. To me, it would be the equivalent of CIO. I am scared to go down that road, because if I really let her have a full blown tantrum, and it goes on and on, and then I finally give in and carry her an hour later, that would set an awful precedent. I can't tell exactly what the root is of her issue. Some of it I am SURE is physical, but when no one else is home, and it is just me and her, you would think she would give it a shot to climb up the stairs.

She also demands boobie ALL the time, and I'd like that to mellow out too. It is just way too much. I am far from trying to wean her, but she is just a bit out of hand. I feel like it is a power struggle. She is trying to make me be at her service at all times. Oy. I do love her though. Puddin' pie.

I think you are also right, Angela, about the tone of voice she uses. When she demands something I always ask her to repeat her demand nicely, and she usually sings me back, "may I please have a glass of water please?" But I also think she has to learn that just saying something nicely doesn't automatically result in a Yes. Sometimes the answer is still no. But she does melt me pretty quickly with her sing-song requests!

My husband and I also have some different parenting styles (seperate topic), and it really grates on him to hear her whine. He often demands that I give her the boobie too, or whatever she wants, just so she stops her whining. That doesn't work for me. Seperate discussion, though.

Any other thoughts?

[alegna]

I really think that if the stairs are a sore point right now, just don't let that be a fight. Don't mention it. Don't ask her to walk them. Nothing. For a few weeks.

In a month or so she'll want to do them on her own...

-Angela

[LynnS6]

All children calm down eventually unless there is a developmental issue (children with autism sometimes do take hours to calm down, for example). If you near her, or offer your lap during a tantrum, that is NOT CIO. I personally think that it's teaching a bad lesson to be so afraid of a tantrum that you won't let one happen. It teaches a child that their emotions are sooo scary that mom and dad are afraid of them too!

The day may come where you will not be able to, no matter how hard you try, avoid the tantrum. Let me give you an example. We bought a HUGE bottle of olive oil at Costco a while back. Dd thought it was apple juice. (It has a remarkably similar color!) She wanted apple juice. No amount of tasting a little bit of the olive oil, explaining that we did not HAVE apple juice (I don't buy juice often at all because dd is would be a juice-aholic), or distraction would satisfy her. She was SURE we were holding out on her and had a major tantrum. She would not be comforted without the tantrum. All I could do was stand nearby and offer my comfort "you really want apple juice."

That's not to say that offering to nurse or a distraction is a bad idea. If it works, great! There's no need to force a tantrum. But some are unavoidable. Dd tantrumed every time we made her hold our hand crossing the street last summer. (She was just over 2.) We live in a quiet neighborhood, and she might have gotten away with doing it herself and lived to tell the tale. But I needed to establish with her that she stops at corners and waits. And this summer, I can let her run ahead of me because she does. She's not great about looking both ways or stopping to listen, so she still needs help. But she'll now wait for me to give that help. The tantrums simply had to be endured while she learned that.

As for the stairs, I might try to 'head her off' sometimes and see if it works "I'm going upstairs, do you want to hold my hand and come with me?" If she demands to be carried, and you can, then I'd just do it. However, if you're just going to pop up for a moment and then back down, I might just pop up for a moment without her. Say "I'll be right back, you can join me if you want to." Race up stairs, put the shirts in the drawer and then down again.

My children are quite stubborn, and dd in particular is quite persistent. They have the memories of elephants. The worst tantrums we've had have lasted 30+ minutes (that was ds who would NOT be comforted DURING a tantrum, only after). Dd's are shorter but more frequent, and somewhat more intense.

The fastest way to ensure that your child will whine endlessly is to give in after a bit of whining. If the answer is 'no' and you have a good, legitimate reason, then I have no trouble sticking to 'no', despite a tantrum. If the initial answer was 'no' and you don't have a good reason for it, then say "you know what, I changed my mind. You're right, there's no reason we can't do that." But the key for my kids is that if I won't reconsider, they know it's 'no' and no amount of whining will make it happen. On the other hand, they do know that I'm not completely inflexible and will listen to their reasons.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

DD is 2.5 and the only hard and fast limits we have are safety ones (no big sticks in the house; hold my hand when walking in the parking lot; must change poopy diaper; no running up to strange dogs, etc). These are all things that she doesn't need to cooperate with, exactly, except for diaper changes which require some cooperation, usually achieved with distraction.

If I ask her to do something that looks like its going to turn into a tantrum if I persist and that I know I'm not going to make her do through tears and protests, I stop asking before she gets to the tantrum, so that I'm honoring her calmer "no" and not giving in after a tantrum.

Weird toddler fears start popping up at this age. I'm not always quite sure why she doesn't want to do something ("but you'll climb up the stairs at grandma's; what's wrong with these stairs???") but I figure she has her reasons.

[Khourtniey]

With the stairs I would walk beside her up the stairs.. Make it an adventure or something..

Our limits mainly consist of safety ones as well... My oldest can help me with his brothers care and medical equipment, but only when I am there...

He can help cook but only when I am there...

Our limits seem to follow the "when I am there" deal... I like to help him out and show him how to do things. I dont want him to grow up thinking that he can NEVER cook or he can NEVER do anything with his brother.. I just want him to know the appropriate time and place for things.

If that makes any sense

[elizawill]

as for the stairs, if it was my child, i would probably compromise. i would say, i'm willing to hold your hand and walk up and down the stairs with you, but i will not carry you. and i agree about tantrums not being a super big deal. yep, they are super annoying, but they are just a phase. my son had such terrible (but his weren't jus bad - they were LONG!) tantrums when he was 1 1/2 - to 2 1/2??? i don't remember. they were AWFUL tantrums though....i remember surfing the net because i was certain something was really wrong with him. the way i handled it, is i would leave the room. i would get down to his level and tell him i was going in the other room. then i would leave & give him his space to have a tantrum and scream, kick, and cry....whatever...but he would not have me for an audience. i would tell him, i'm going in the other room. when you are done, please come to me and i will hold you. he outgrew his tantrums pretty quicky. they eventually got shorter and shorter and then went away all together. he preferred sitting in my lap and us hugging, and i much preferred this over trying to sit with him during the tantrum (i'd end up being yelled at and kicked). he's 3 years and 4 months now, and i can honestly say he's overall, an extremely laid back and mild tempered child now. hang in there mama....this too shall pass.


i just wanted to add too, that i think having rules in place (other than safety only) are more than appropraite for a 2 1/2 year old. they should be age appropriate rules of course, and you must be flexible with the fact that the child will not be able to fully comply all of the time....but my kids from a very early age were expected to respect our animals, not ruin things in their bedroom, color on paper only, use manners, help clean up toys after playing, don't help yourself to food at someone else's home, etc. as they grow older, my expectations increase.

[maya44]

I think that trying too hard to avoid a tantrum and giving in is really bad, NOT because a child will "learn that they can get what they want by a tantrum" but mainly because it can make a child feel that "I can't survive if I don't get what I want."

A child who is "allowed" to throw the longest, messiest tantrum and then be done with it, learns "I can not get everything i want and then move on and be happy again."

This is why, IMHO, the more you try to stop a tantrum and give in the more "demanding" kids become. Not because they are 'spoiled' but because it make them terribly afraid. They start to have an extreme fear of what will happen if they don't get what they want. They can let almost nothing go for fear that they might not survive.

[Shell]

Thank you to everyone for your comments and insights. The last few days I've just been carrying her up/down the stairs as normal... especially since we're making the leap to underwear right now.

I mentioned in my original post that dd did not start walking until nearly 20 months. She really still moves like a toddler. She walks pretty well, but her running is still kind of on her toes and with legs and arms swinging. She is reluctant to climb at the playground, and only recently started stepping down small steps (like a curb) without sitting down and slidding her butt over it. She also has an 19 month year old friend who is the most physically developed child I have ever met. This girl can do the monkey bars at 19 months!!! I think dd is accutely aware of their physical differences. Before they started hanging out so much together (I'm great friends with her mother), dd was much more adventurous. She used to go up the ladder of the BIG slide, and slide down by herself. Now she won't go near it. It is like she has regressed. So I definitely think there is an emotional side and a physical side -- and both are real. I'm just not sure how to turn it around. My daughter is obsessed with this 19 month old. She talks about her all the time. I think that is part of the issue.

But that is just one facet of the tantrum thing, which extends beyond the staircase and physical stuff. Of course, the last few days have been without major incident... (figures)... so I have not had the opportunity to watch her frustration and help guide it. Not that I'm complaining!!!

I think in the end I am going to have to let her emotions explode a bit more, as I am afraid she is learning that she can get what she wants by screaming. I think she wants to know that there are limits, and she is looking for them.

However, I do not think I should let the moment of meltdown be at the top or foot of the stairs. I think there may be some larger issues looming there, and it may not be the right place to do battle. At least not right now.

If only I could crawl inside of her brain. I love her so much...

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by Shell

I love her so much...

Awww....I love how it shines through in your posts!

My first is less adventerous and physical than many other kids, too. Walked later, crawled later, sticks pretty close. I think you just honor it. If her fine motor skills were still developing, you'd help her get the cheerios to her mouth, right? Maybe just look at the stairs the same way. For a little kid, stairs are a LOT anyway--sort of the equivelant of climbing Everest, you know? And for a kid whose not very phyisical, it can be extremely daunting--esp. if it's several times a day.

I find the more I can just meet the need, the need is filled and it disappears.

If she needs you to carry her up the stairs, then maybe just do it until she's ready to tackle them on her own.

So often OUR agendas for what they "should" or "could" be doing interfere and we start to impose all our stuff on them. And then it becomes an issue, b/c basically, WE made it one.

If you just help her along as these varying parts develop and catch up to each other, I think you both will be just fine.

She's not going to be 12 and still asking you to carry her up the stairs!

[Tanibani]

Shell, Shell, Shell...

In your first post you said "you give in sometimes." I think giving in for certain things is fine, but for others it's not.

I was waaaay too permissive with my first born. Never let him cry (boob shoved in the mouth). When he screamed for candy in the store, I gave in. Today he is 7 and has a hard time with limits (what limits?) and that's MY FAULT.

You at least have a good sense of it so far.

Tantrums - I wish I let my son tantrum more. First Aletha Solter (author of Your Aware Baby and contributor to Mothering) says it's a good stress release (everybody needs a good cry now and then.)

She has some great articles on her website.

This is from her TEARS AND TANTRUMS article. I love this description:

The "Broken Cookie" phenomenon.

The need to cry gradually builds up until the child feels an urge for release. At that point, almost anything will trigger the tears. Because of this, there are times when the reason for the child's crying is not immediately evident, and the outburst appears to be unjustified by the current situation. For example, a little girl's cookie breaks and she throws herself into a crying fit. Moments like these can be extremely exasperating for parents, but is the child really "spoiled" and "manipulative" as some people would claim?

There is another way of looking at the situation. When a child acts in this manner, she may be using the pretext of the broken cookie to release pent-up feelings of grief or anger resulting from an accumulation of stress and anxiety. Children do not cry indefinitely. They stop of their own accord when they are finished. After crying, there is a usually a feeling of relief and wellbeing. The incident that triggered the crying is no longer an issue, and the child usually becomes happy and cooperative.

Children do need to learn that loud crying is unacceptable at certain times and places, just as they must learn to use the toilet. However, all children, no matter what age, need at least one adult in their lives who can provide a safe time and place to listen to their emotions of grief or anger. If this kind of acceptance is provided in the home, it will be easier for children to refrain from crying in school or in public situations, and they will save up their crying for their safe home base.

I heard her speak 2.5 years ago and this is how she described the Broken Cookie....
- you drop off you daughter at preschool.
- She wants to use the swing, but someone is already on it.
- Her best friend isn't there yet.
- She has to say goodbye to you.
- She goes inside. She can't find a spot at the craft table, because other people are there... and on and on..

Then at home, she asks for a cookie. Mom gets one... "Oh, there is only one left, and it's broken." Child has a fit. WHY? Build-up of stress!

The other thing I wanted to say was that I was reading Mary Sheedy Kurcinka's great new book on Sleep, and she said that during potty training, the child can be sad... With diapers, there is a higher level of touch, physical interaction, intimacy goes out the window with a switch to underwear. The child might miss all that.

So help them out by filling those needs in other ways (rather than dropping them altogether.)

So maybe that's what the stairs is about.

You can say, "I love to hold you. Sometimes it's easy for me to carry you up or down. Sometimes I feel tired and I need you to do it by yourself. When you want to walk up and down by yourself, let me know."

[mezzaluna]

specifically about stairs - we went through this recently when i was pregnant and it became more and more uncomfortable to carry DS up and down stairs. this coincided with him making the transition between crawling up and down stairs and wanting to start walking... it's like he was too big to crawl and too little and scared to walk them. so it looked like a regression in that he used to be able to take the stairs himself, and then started refusing... but really i think it was just a developmental step (no pun intended) for him.

i offered to hold his hand, but he was still scared of that. sometimes we'd go down the stairs together sitting on our behinds and scooching down one by one - that was actually fun if i could muster the patience for it. sometimes i would carry him if i felt up to it. sometimes i would offer to carry him up part of the stairs but not all of them.

basically - he could ask to be carried - i wouldn't get mad at him for that - and i could decide whether it was reasonable for me to carry him at that time or not - and i tried not to feel guilty if it honestly wasn't a good idea for me to carry him (especially if i felt dizzy!). and even when i carried him, i would talk to him about how i knew he could do it, and i would be happy to help him do it safely, but that i understood he didn't want to do it right now... so i was still expressing my eventual expectation for him.

i also set limits around nursing while i was pregnant. it was definitely a back and forth... seeing what limits i needed to be comfortable, seeing what limits he could handle. we tried some substitutions, delays... and shortening the time we nursed if it wasn't a good time for me. i did try to be consistent about certain times of day when i would always say yes to nursing and not set time limits.... that way he would have the security of knowing what to expect at those times, and other times when he wanted to nurse he'd know that i might say "not right now" or "let's just count to ten and then be done."