found out a friend circed son - Page 2

[karina5]

Daisy,

You put 2 babies next to each other: One w/ cigarette burns and bitemarks all over him, and the other baby has a penis that has been circumcised. (And I am talking circumcised in a hospital, not out in the back woods w/ Grandpa's hunting knife).

You HONESTLY THINK that the one who has been circumcised is worse off???

:

If that is truly your way of thinking then I think you are doing a major disservice to the cause of not circumcising.

I told you: I think circumcision is wrong. But I CANNOT believe you are saying a baby that has been horribly burned and bitten is better off than the baby who has been circumcised.

It is unbelievably offensive, and is making me sick to my stomach.

I have a friend over, and I am truly done now.

[nigellas]

Karina, They are both horrendous crimes against babies. One is just more socially acceptable than the other.

[gridley13]

I have ended one friendship over the mother's decision to circ, regardless of all the info. Her reason for doing it was something like, "you are talking to someone who has been with an uncirc'd man and found it very unappealing".

Another friend went through everything I sent her and talked with me at length as did her husband. In the end, they did it because they just couldn't handle the thought of him being teased by some girl in an intimate situation. They did make a specific separate apointment with the OB about having the pain relief exactly as they wanted it and educated themselves on the proper care afterwards. I can't explain why, but I was able to accept that, as disappointed as I was, and we remain friends. I do think differently of her now though.

I even now, 2 years later, think sometimes I should end the friendship to make my point but the truth is I want this friend in my life and at the very least, she DID go through the research and take it all seriously. Again, her reasons were just as horrible as the first friend... but I handled them differently. I don't know why.

I have a former friend who left his 2 year old in a hotel room sleeping by herself while he went out, found drugs, got in a fight with cops and wound up in the hospital then jail before he told someone to check on the toddler. I am NOT friends with him any longer.

Ending a friendship is a big deal lots of times... many factors to consider. I feel VERY strongly about circumcision but even as passionate as I am, I don't always end friendships over it.

[Daisyuk]

Originally Posted by karina5

Daisy,

You put 2 babies next to each other: One w/ cigarette burns and bitemarks all over him, and the other baby has a penis that has been circumcised. (And I am talking circumcised in a hospital, not out in the back woods w/ Grandpa's hunting knife).

You HONESTLY THINK that the one who has been circumcised is worse off???

:

If that is truly your way of thinking then I think you are doing a major disservice to the cause of not circumcising.

I told you: I think circumcision is wrong. But I CANNOT believe you are saying a baby that has been horribly burned and bitten is better off than the baby who has been circumcised.

It is unbelievably offensive, and is making me sick to my stomach.

I have a friend over, and I am truly done now.

The one who is circumcised is MISSING part of his genitals. Both will heal. Just WHO is it that is permanently missing a large amount of erogenous flesh from his body? WHO is it that is going to suffer further years of officially sanctioned abuse from parents and/or doctors pulling his healing wound apart again causing him further scarring and excrutiating pain? WHO is liable to suffer the further pain of a re-circ if the parents decide they don't like the look of the first, or corrective surgery if the first gets botched? ALL on the most sensitive part of his body.

There are also all the other complications and pain associated with it - just because the parents don't deliberately inflict meatal ulcers, meatitis, meatal stenosis, and all the other horrors suffered by circumcised boys, doesn't mean that it's any different, those that knowingly and willingly risk this happening are just as abusive as the person wielding the lighted cigarette, because they seem to be happy to accept the risk of it happening - or indeed the risk of him dying. It isn't any different to any other abusive relationship, it's just socially accepted over there. Exactly HOW is constantly causing a child pain and distress and leaving him with mutilated genitals for no reason NOT abuse?

You can't see it because you have cultural blinkers on. It is people like yourself who just can't see that these babies need protecting just as much as the others, who allow this abomination to continue.

[karina5]

Originally Posted by Daisyuk

The one who is circumcised is MISSING part of his genitals. Both will heal. Just WHO is it that is permanently missing a large amount of erogenous flesh from his body? WHO is it that is going to suffer further years of officially sanctioned abuse from parents and/or doctors pulling his healing wound apart again causing him further scarring and excrutiating pain? WHO is liable to suffer the further pain of a re-circ if the parents decide they don't like the look of the first, or corrective surgery if the first gets botched? ALL on the most sensitive part of his body.

There are also all the other complications and pain associated with it - just because the parents don't deliberately inflict meatal ulcers, meatitis, meatal stenosis, and all the other horrors suffered by circumcised boys, doesn't mean that it's any different, those that knowingly and willingly risk this happening are just as abusive as the person wielding the lighted cigarette, because they seem to be happy to accept the risk of it happening - or indeed the risk of him dying. It isn't any different to any other abusive relationship, it's just socially accepted over there. Exactly HOW is constantly causing a child pain and distress and leaving him with mutilated genitals for no reason NOT abuse?

You can't see it because you have cultural blinkers on. It is people like yourself who just can't see that these babies need protecting just as much as the others, who allow this abomination to continue.

Wow. This is offensive on so many levels I can't even begin to respond.

[ThreeBeans]

Originally Posted by vermontgirl

I personally would not consider her a friend anymore. I cannot continue friendships with people who abuse their children-even though the information was provided for them.

I agree with you.

[carriebft]

It is only that our culture accepts circumcision that someone could look at a child with a mutilated penis and a child with a cigarette burn and call one "worse" or "better" than the other.

I am sure, Karina, that if someone showed you a child with a piece of their ear torn off and a child with a cigarette burn, you would call them both horrible, unthinkable, terrible...whatever other words. You would not compare them.

Yet, add a circumcised boy in there with his wound wide open, and you say his wound is less?

I cry for our society.

(and, yes, I am talking only about the wounds. Yes, I know the family life of the other two COULD be worse, more dangerous, whatever words you want to use. But all of their wounds hurt. They all bleed, they all are full of pain inflicted on them by those who should be trusted and give only love!)

[phatchristy]

I get the impression from reading this thread that in general most people would agree (based on the assumed cultural bias for circumcised as the "norm" in this country) with the following here:

Most people here in the US circ out of ignorance, because they "didn't know any better", had mis-information about it from other people, their husbands insisted and they just go along thinking it's a minor snip-snip with baby not feeling any discomfort of pain. I don't think someone would drop a friendship with someone they find out had in the past circumcised a child with no knowledge that they were inflicting permanent physical and psychological harm-- Not to mention, permanent physical damage forever depriving them of the most sensual and sensitive tissues on their body. Most people don't feel that way in this country because in some areas of the US it is so culturally ingrained that people just think "it's done" like cutting the cord after birth or getting shots.

HOWEVER, when you are friends with a woman. They know you for years, and you are open and share all of the information with them. When they read it and literally admit to you that circumcision is again unnecessary, that they know their child will feel pain, that they know they are depriving their child of valuable sexual tissue...they admit to all of that...YET STILL do it...well, then I think most people here would have difficulty maintaining a friendship with someone who did not act to protect their child from harm and protect their right to an intact body. To knowingly let someone harm your child...when you could have stopped it. I think that IS the issue.

I know someone who did just that. We shared the information with her about circumcision. She read it all, watched the video. Agreed with us, said she didn't want to do it. She even told us..."I just handed them the baby and let them take him away so I could go out of the office so I didn't have a chance to hear the screams." When the mother let it happen, defying her natural instince to protect her child...mainly because of societal norms and going against the grain of her family...sigh. It's honestly hard NOT to let a situation like that affect your friendship, regardless of whether or not you try to get past it. She said that in her case, she figured even though she agreed with all of the sexual side effects and knew that she was depriving him, that she figured he would never know what he lost anyhow...just like her husband never knew what sensation he lost since he was circ'd...so what was the big deal...: .

This particular person, who I went through that experience with....well, she sort of fell away from our group of friends. Everyone was so shocked when they found out that she voluntarily drove her son in to be circ'd (after she told all of us she agreed with us and *knew* it would cause him harm). I mean, literally...the girls in our group were so sad and nobody could think of her the same way ever again. Even now, years later...whenever I think of her that is what I think of.

[paquerette]

Daisy. I agree with you completely. I think I know what you mean about the cultural blinders. It took me a few years to go from "circ seems like a silly idea" to "circ seems like a pretty mean thing to do" to "circ is WRONG but worse things happen to people" to "OMG circ is a horrible painful mutilation and one of the most horrible things I can imagine to do to someone." It was a long process, and I have been very immersed in the issue the whole time.

[carriebft]

Well said, phatchristy.

[bluetoes]

I think circ. is awful and horrible. And while I might not end a friendship I don't think I would ever see the person the same again. It would be hard to respect them for making such a horrible and idiotic decision as to circ. their newborn son. It goes against all reason. I think I would probably just let the friendship die as friendships sometimes do. Yeah it would be wimpy but I think they'd get the idea without me telling them.

As for cultural blinders I think I can speak to that. I never really had a concept of circumsicion when living in the US. I lived in Ireland for a long time and it was only when talking to Irish friends and family when someone said ' do you know what they do to their little boys there (we live in the US now) ?!' with complete horror. Our Irish friends and family are horrified and disgusted by it, don't understand it, and think people who do it are ignorant genital mutilators.

Having said, I am sure none of them could compare it to the horrors of pure long term neglect and abuse such as cigarette burns. And it is insulting and a diservice to those poor children who have to live in situations like that and suffer the long term affects. My MIL was a social work and my SIL a teacher in the worst parts of Dublin. I am sure if I asked them which they'd rather see - the abused neglected child of junkies or a cared for and loved child that was circ'd at birth I think I know which one they'd choose. And they are not culturally blinded.

[mamamillet]

And what exactly is the difference between a cigarette burn (which leaves a scar only), or being left in the same diaper for 4 days (causing sores and pain, possible scarring and infection but no tissue lost), or lack of food (which can be made up later and which leaves no obvious signs at all) and a genital mutilation, which removes a large amount of erogenous tissue permanently and which is constantly re-opened, torn and messed about with for several years?

First I want to say that this is not a close friend. However, this is someone that relied on my a lot during her pregnancies--the first was a miscarriage and even though we were not close I was the one she called first and told, and asked question to. She and I have very different lifestyles to bgin with--not a whole lot in common. But, she did listen to me alot and I do feel as if I have made a diiference in many things she has chosen to do. She went out and got the Sears Baby Book, not on my rec, but b/c she noticed I had given it to another co-worker and said good things about it. I hope she will continue to come to me for guidance. This has definitely changed the dynamics for me but I am not ready to give up on her yet. I do not think its crazy howvere to not be able to be friends with someone b/c of their choice--if we were closer I would probably feel differently.
Now as far as abuse goes, I do believe it is abuse and the wounds themselves are very similar, howvere it is what typically goes along with the two that is very different. Parents that burn their children usually display a pattern of abuse which I believe has a much more profound effect on a child. Also, neglect,--being left in a diaper or not fed for days would actually be much more detrimental to a child, an infant-emotionally than physical abuse. I have worked with kids that have attachment disorders and feel very strongly that the emotional abuse that goes along with forms of neglect is much more damaging to children than even being beaten on a regular basis.

[carriebft]

The whole "there are worse things" argument is just a red herring anyway.

There are always worse things. Thats the way humans seem to work. Think of the most horrible thing you can think of...I can guarentee theres something WORSE out there. Does that make the thing you thought of any better? NOPE!

Like I said, red herring!

[mamamillet]

There are always worse things though, thats the thing. There are things that are more damaging, but it does not negate the orginal damage done. I also feel that intent needs to be considered. But maybe I am alone in that thought.

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by mamamillet

There are always worse things though, thats the thing. There are things that are more damaging, but it does not negate the orginal damage done. I also feel that intent needs to be considered. But maybe I am alone in that thought.

The child, however, doesnt understand or experience intent.

[mamamillet]

Sure we do. My mom used belts to "spank" me. Hurt like hell. Caused physical and emotional damage. But I know that my mom is horrified by the idea now. She did what she thought parents did to " misbehaving" kids. She did what was done to her. I understand her intent and have forgiven her completely.

[vermontgirl]

Originally Posted by Daisyuk

You can't see it because you have cultural blinkers on. It is people like yourself who just can't see that these babies need protecting just as much as the others, who allow this abomination to continue.

I really dont understand why she cant see the difference. It actually really irks me. :

[mamamillet]

Originally Posted by Daisyuk
You can't see it because you have cultural blinkers on. It is people like yourself who just can't see that these babies need protecting just as much as the others, who allow this abomination to continue.

Where was it said that these babies need less protection. All babies need protetion from abuse. I do believe that we all want to protect all babies from being circed--thats why we are here right. I guess some of us jsut don't agree on how best to provide that protection. If any of you have a way that provides 100% protection--let me know cause I have not figured it out yet!

[ThreeBeans]

Phatchristy, you made the distinction beautifully.

[karina5]

Originally Posted by vermontgirl

I really dont understand why she cant see the difference. It actually really irks me. :

That is fine but you could speak directly to me instead of about me, and I would be happy to discuss.