My DD is possessed by demons

[towsonmama]

Ok, not really, but she sure seems like a candidate for the Exorcist lately. She's 4.5 and in the past two weeks has turned into a child I no longer recognize. She hits adults, indiscriminately (me, DH, my parents, my grandmother!), and her younger sister (regularly). She covers her ears when I try to talk to her about her behaviour. She spits, "moons" people, and basically does anything she can think of that we would consider unacceptable in our family.

I'm working hard on the love-based discipline approach but I'm beginning to feel like her doormat. I've totally avoided time-outs and forced apologies but have completely run out of ideas to try to get through to her. When I asked her what she thought would help her behavior, she told me there was a secret potion hidden somewhere that I would never find. :

I'm planning on consulting my UP book some more but any suggestions would be awesome!!!

[izandleo]

I'm sorry to hear that, mama. It sounds like your DD is very intelligent and is trying out being manipulative....I am sorry I don't have any suggestions...good luck, mama.

[MidgeMommy]

Has something changed lately in the family/circumstances? Maybe she's reacting to that.


Also, at 4.5, I would think SOME children would understand the argument that if they can't behave reasonably, they can't interact with other people. I don't mean time outs or anything, but remove her from the activity which she is disrupting. Especially is this is family time, she will understand that disrespect is not acceptable. I don't know if that is technically AP, but I would consider it a logical consequence. If you can't respect people, you can't interact with them. When you move on to the next activity or part of your day, ask her if she would like to be included, and if she can participate responsibly.


I also think that sometimes kids read body language and facial expressions MUCH deeper than they do words, and giving her 'the look' which clearly expresses how much it hurts you (or DH, or grandma) when she acts this way will be more effective than telling her, especially if she is covering her ears and such.

I babysat (completely different than a DD relationship, I know) for a four year old who was very similar, throwing food, screaming when I told her it was bedtime, when I wrestled her into bed she started jumping on her sister's bed (with her sister in it!) and yelling that I couldn't make her sleep. I just looked at her very mournfully, and told her she was hurting both her sister and I, and that if she didn't want to sleep, well, her sister did. She looked very confused that I wasn't angry and reacting, and climbed down. I told her sister goodnight, and let the 4 year old stand in the middle of the room. I came back ten minutes later, after cleaning the kitchen, and she was sound asleep in her own bed. I think the reason it worked is because I didn't tell her what to do, or really address HER, she realized she wasn't going to get her way.

Good luck, and hugs!

[mom22girls]

Check out the Ames & Ilg series, "Your Four Year Old," "Your Five Year Old," etc. They assert that children go from a state of balance to disequilibrium every six months or so. I've found that you can't set your watch by it, but there's definitely a trend with my girls. And we've had moments when we're expecting the projectile green vomit .

I love the secret potion comment - it's brilliant!!! Next time she calls for you and asks, "where are you mama?" tell her you're looking for the potion. Priceless! I bet she's REALLY something!!!!

[towsonmama]

Originally Posted by mom22girls

I love the secret potion comment - it's brilliant!!! Next time she calls for you and asks, "where are you mama?" tell her you're looking for the potion.

Great idea!!! Thanks for the book rec. too. I'll check it out.

[towsonmama]

Originally Posted by MidgeMommy

Also, at 4.5, I would think SOME children would understand the argument that if they can't behave reasonably, they can't interact with other people. I don't mean time outs or anything, but remove her from the activity which she is disrupting. Especially is this is family time, she will understand that disrespect is not acceptable. I don't know if that is technically AP, but I would consider it a logical consequence. If you can't respect people, you can't interact with them. When you move on to the next activity or part of your day, ask her if she would like to be included, and if she can participate responsibly.

I think she would understand that concept but it just doesn't sit right with me. I guess I'm being idealistic and hoping there's a way to break through to her empathetic inner-core without excluding her from time with the family.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by towsonmama

I think she would understand that concept but it just doesn't sit right with me. I guess I'm being idealistic and hoping there's a way to break through to her empathetic inner-core without excluding her from time with the family.

because your dd is 4.5 and not a baby, when she hits people (especially if it's not you and your husband) she should be removed from that social setting. that is unacceptable behavior and deserves natural cosequences.

[towsonmama]

How is removing her different from a time-out? I'm not being snarky, I'm really trying to see the difference.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by towsonmama

How is removing her different from a time-out? I'm not being snarky, I'm really trying to see the difference.

well it depends on how you define time-out? i use time-outs in my home. many parents use time-outs as a form of punishment or humiliation, and this is wrong. i use them because a situation is escalating to something it shouldn't be and i need to remove myself from a situation or remove my children. we don't sit in chairs or stand in corners, but we go in our bedroom. sometimes it's me and my child together talking privately about what just happened. sometimes it's me just trying to cool down. we don't do time-outs to humiliate anyone or punish them, but sometimes they are necessary.

i know this sounds insensitive, but it will be difficult for your dd to make friends if she hits them. and if she hits you, dad, and grandma, and other family members...she will also hit her friends. to give her natural consequences is not being a mean mama, it is gently teaching her that her hands cannot hurt people. imo, you are her mom and you are obligated to protect her from harming herself and protect her from harming others. how would you feel if another child smacked your dd, or if another child smacked you? would you hope the mother would intervene and protect you or your child?

[mommy2abigail]

Ok this might be totlly off the wall, and may be a really stupid idea, but what if you made a 'potion'? Like either something you can sprinkle on her (like a perfumy type thing) or something you can give her a teaspoon of (like maybe honey thinned with apple juice and dyed green?) Something fun. And potions are all green you know! Try to make it in her sight, or at least mix it and put it in a pretty bottle labled "Magic Potion" When she asks about it, tell her it's a potion you found/made up/whatever that will help her wait her turn/use kind words and actions/whatever she is having trouble with. You can invent a secret code word or gesture so that when other people are around, you can tell her by two winks and a thumbs up that you think she may need some potion. She can go with you to a private place where you can tell her you see she is having trouble with X, and you think this potion will help her. Make it fun and funny. At the very least it will diffuse the tension, for both you and her. And having a 'secret' between you and her is something she may look forward to. Eventually you can add in other yummy potions when you see her change her behaviour, to encourage the good behaviour. Although I dont know if your'e into rewards and all that.
Again, I dont know if this is even a good suggestion, I dont have a 4 yo yet. But I remember vividly loving to mix potions in the bathroom- lotion and powder and perfume and toothpaste. I did it all the time, I'd lock myself in there and mix stuff. You may even invite her to be a part of the process once you have started, if it's working out for you. Give her some edible things and food colors and let her mix her own potions. HTH

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by mommy2abigail

Ok this might be totlly off the wall, and may be a really stupid idea, but what if you made a 'potion'? Like either something you can sprinkle on her (like a perfumy type thing) or something you can give her a teaspoon of (like maybe honey thinned with apple juice and dyed green?) Something fun. And potions are all green you know! Try to make it in her sight, or at least mix it and put it in a pretty bottle labled "Magic Potion" When she asks about it, tell her it's a potion you found/made up/whatever that will help her wait her turn/use kind words and actions/whatever she is having trouble with. You can invent a secret code word or gesture so that when other people are around, you can tell her by two winks and a thumbs up that you think she may need some potion. She can go with you to a private place where you can tell her you see she is having trouble with X, and you think this potion will help her. Make it fun and funny. At the very least it will diffuse the tension, for both you and her. And having a 'secret' between you and her is something she may look forward to. Eventually you can add in other yummy potions when you see her change her behaviour, to encourage the good behaviour. Although I dont know if your'e into rewards and all that.
Again, I dont know if this is even a good suggestion, I dont have a 4 yo yet. But I remember vividly loving to mix potions in the bathroom- lotion and powder and perfume and toothpaste. I did it all the time, I'd lock myself in there and mix stuff. You may even invite her to be a part of the process once you have started, if it's working out for you. Give her some edible things and food colors and let her mix her own potions. HTH

YES, what a fabulous idea!!!!

[towsonmama]

Originally Posted by mommy2abigail

Ok this might be totlly off the wall, and may be a really stupid idea, but what if you made a 'potion'? Like either something you can sprinkle on her (like a perfumy type thing) or something you can give her a teaspoon of (like maybe honey thinned with apple juice and dyed green?) Something fun. And potions are all green you know! Try to make it in her sight, or at least mix it and put it in a pretty bottle labled "Magic Potion" When she asks about it, tell her it's a potion you found/made up/whatever that will help her wait her turn/use kind words and actions/whatever she is having trouble with. You can invent a secret code word or gesture so that when other people are around, you can tell her by two winks and a thumbs up that you think she may need some potion. She can go with you to a private place where you can tell her you see she is having trouble with X, and you think this potion will help her. Make it fun and funny. At the very least it will diffuse the tension, for both you and her. And having a 'secret' between you and her is something she may look forward to. Eventually you can add in other yummy potions when you see her change her behaviour, to encourage the good behaviour. Although I dont know if your'e into rewards and all that.
Again, I dont know if this is even a good suggestion, I dont have a 4 yo yet. But I remember vividly loving to mix potions in the bathroom- lotion and powder and perfume and toothpaste. I did it all the time, I'd lock myself in there and mix stuff. You may even invite her to be a part of the process once you have started, if it's working out for you. Give her some edible things and food colors and let her mix her own potions. HTH

Awesome idea!! I love that! I think she and I will be mixing up some witch's brew when she gets back from her playdate. Hmmm...maybe I should use this time to create an ancient, secret recipe for said potion, you know with the emon juice trick to "age" the paper.

Thanks!

[chfriend]

I want to support you in continuing to try to connect with her rather than isolate her when she acts in these difficult ways. I wouldn't leap to the conclusion she's being manipulative.

I love the potion idea.

That said, it sounds like this is something completely out of the blue and that she is feeling really terrible. How about you take her off for an afternoon together to go the park and "fill her love cup?" Tell her you want her to know how special she is to you and that even though she's growing up she will always be your little kid?

[monkey's mom]

Ditto to everything chfriend said!

Reconnect, reconnect, reconnect!!

Sometimes a gentle, "How can I help?" works wonders when my child is out of sorts.

[towsonmama]

Thanks for the support, chfriend and monkey's mom.

The potion is in the fridge. (She wanted me to make it for her.) I'm going to pick her up from her playdate now so we'll see how it goes.

[mommy2abigail]

Hee hee. The potion is in the fridge. It sounds like code or something. I'm so anxious to see how this will help you reconnect with her! Please keep us posted, I'm sure it will serve me as an excellent reference in a few years!

[towsonmama]

So far, so good. Dd practically ran home from the playdate because she was so excited to try the potion. She thinks it's really yummy--which made me worry that she would act out just to get a dose --so I explained that if she still hit people after taking the potion then obviously the potion doesn't work and I'll have to try the yucky tasting recipe instead.

She's very curious about where the "recipe" came from. Since I made the concoction while she was out it's a total mystery to her. Fun!

(Not to mention, after she took a dose she gave me a HUGE hug and told me I'm the best mama in the world for making that for her when she wasn't even home. )

[monkey's mom]

You are so my hero!!!

[CrunchyParent]

I LOOOVED the title of your post (mostly because I thought I had written it). My DD is just about 4.5 years and she too has been putting me through my paces recently. This afternoon we got home from an errand and the baby had fallen asleep in the car. DD#1 got out first and asked if she could ride her tricycle around for a while before dinner. I said that she could, but first I needed her to go in the house because the baby had fallen asleep and I needed to get her settled in her bed, and it wasn't safe for her to be riding her trike out front without an adult. After the baby was in bed, I could come outside with #1 while she rode her trike. Well, she threw such a massive fit that it woke the baby. The natural consequence was that now I would not be available to stay outside with her because the baby was awake and cranky, I was cranky, and it's physically difficult for me to run after DD around the cul du sac with a wiggly grumpy #2 on my hip.

Oh goodness. She pitched a fit. On the floor, screaming, throwing things. I tried to encourage her to engage in activities to calm herself down and help her make better choices, e.g. listen to music, draw, sing a song, play piano, take a walk in the back yard (all of which are anger management strategies that we've discussed before in calmer times). She covered her ears screaming, "I'm not hearing you! I'm not listening to you! I won't calm down and make better choices! I'm frustrated and I'm getting angrier! TRICYCLE!!!!! TRIIIICYCLEEEEE!" She then "I'm going to make you angrier and angrier until you are dead and I can do what I want." (ouch).

Well, I took that opportunity to inform her that when she grew up and had her own home she could make her own decisions, and I didnt even need to be dead. Something clicked there and she said that she was ready to move out. So we brainstormed how we would make that work (Where will you live? What will you eat? etc.) She reasoned that since it was warm out, she could live ok outside by our driveway. She expressed concerns about what to do if cars came down the road and decided that she would run into our garage to be safe. We discussed food options and she settled on packing a banana, a snack bar, and a sippy cup of rice milk into her back pack. After much consideration she decided that the brown rice pasta was impractical travel food because she would need a pot to cook it. I gave her a big hug and a kiss and told her that I would miss her (by now she was saying that she'd only be gona a few days and would miss me too). She bid her sister farewell, asked me to help her open the garage door, and took her tricycle out to the front. I stayed inside with my fingers crossed and an discrete eye on her from the windows. She rode her trike on the sidewalk between our driveway and the neighboring houses on each side. She sat on the ground for a bit, ate her banana, and then came home calm, loving, and refreshed.

I'm not sure if the exercise worked because it shifted her focus, gave her a sense of control, or just gave her what she had initially wanted (to ride her trike out front). In any case, it stopped this particular fit from escalating, and I'll take each victory that I get!

I'm glad to hear that things with your DD are looking up. I hope the trend continues.

[tiffani]

Originally Posted by towsonmama

I think she would understand that concept but it just doesn't sit right with me. I guess I'm being idealistic and hoping there's a way to break through to her empathetic inner-core without excluding her from time with the family.

the beauty of it, though, is that kids don't want to be excluded, and it rarely gets to the point where you have to exclude them -- we don't do any form of time out, but if my son is hurting kids, or playing in a way that is threatening to hurt kids, we will have to leave, plain and simple -- it's not fair to the other kids, and the same holds true for other adults, including the parents! I think it's a very valid, important lesson to learn that if someone is treating you badly, you get yourself away from them, and I do that if my son is "mean" to me -- I never actually get to the point where I have to physically move away from him, or where we have to leave our friends(though I have once, and after that, he knew I meant that we would, in fact leave if he couldn't control himself) because he truly WANTS to "behave" and get along well with everyone -- Of course, it has to be coupled with "you seem to be feeling badly, what can I do to help?" but for sure, we will leave if he is out of control. It's not a punishment, it's just the way it goes -- I would leave and head to a park or something, not as a "lesson" just because "if you can't treat people well, you can't be around people -- let's talk about it and try again next time."

anyway, in a situation where we were with family, I would take my child *nicely* to another room to talk it over, and let them know that we would have to go if they couldn't be nice, or the two of you would have to stay in the room instead of being with everyone. And sometimes, if there are other adults around (family members or anyone else who you may feel uptight parenting around) kids act really crazy -- a few minutes alone with mama might help them out a lot.