"Spanking teaches violence"

[pageta]

Disclaimer - I am not advocating spanking in any way, shape or form. I am just looking at the thinking BEHIND this particular reason for not spanking.

I have an almost 4-year-old who is obsessed with "correcting" his 8-month-old brother. Most of the things he "corrects" him for are not rules that my DH or I have made but ideas he came up with on his own (mainly the "correct" way to play with toys).

Like the stacking rings. The baby just wants to wave them in his hands and explore them, but DS1 will come over and take the toy away from him, stack it on the pedestal or do whatever he thinks should be done with the ring at the moment, including deciding which one the baby should be holding. Many times, after he takes the toy away from the baby, he will hit the baby on the head with the toy (something which he could not have possibly learned by seeing us to it, to the baby, to him or to each other).

The baby is just being a baby. Babies go around and explore and you just control their environment to keep them safe. But a three-year-old can understand right from wrong. You can show a three-year-old how to stack rings and instruct him not to throw them (he's strong enough to throw them hard enough to hurt something), but the baby should be able to explore the toy and do as he wishes.

So I tell the three-year-old not to do certain things, but those rules do not apply to the baby for obvious reasons. But the three-year-old tries to make the baby follow the same rules he is given, plus many others that he makes up himself. It's not his place to "discipline" the baby - he is not the parent. But if you follow the line of reasoning in the "spanking teaches violence" thinking (as in, children hit others because their parents hit them), I am to blame for my three-year-old telling the baby what to do and what not to do just because I've given my three-year-old guidelines for correct and incorrect behavior.

I don't think it's inappropriate for me to teach my three-year-old the difference between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. But how do I convey the idea to him that it's not his place to turn around and teach the baby right from wrong (whether they be our rules or his that he's "enforcing)?

As long as your children aren't all the same age, the rules for each of them are going to be different. I don't think it is ever appropriate for them to enforce rules for each other, whether they be their rules or mine. How do you teach that distinction between authority figure (parent) and peer (sibling)?

And this behavior is an ongoing problem whenever they're both awake. It's like the three-year-old has nothing else to do but "correct" the baby, take toys away from him, hit him with the toys, drag him away from things, roll him over because he should be on his back and not his stomach (don't ask me why), and on and on while the baby cries for how he's treated and the three-year-old won't cut it out no matter what I do. I am literally at my wits end! I don't know how to stop it and everything I read makes it sound like it's all my fault.

[mammastar2]

Lots of running commentary along the lines of "Look at Baby throw the rings! You used to throw the rings when you were a Baby too: that's how you explored and learned. I remember when you [fill in the blank with a baby story, just like Baby does now. It will be fun to watch Baby explore and learn, just like you. Now you're three and you can [fill in the blank with cool thing a three year old can do]."

Or: "You see Baby throwing toys, but you don't throw toys now you're older. Babies and three year olds are different, aren't they? Baby can't [insert cool thing three year old can do], but Baby will when Baby is three. Neat, huh?"

[mammastar2]

Also, I don't know that it's the "authority figure" vs "sibling" role that is what you should focus on. That will still seem just as arbitrary to him as the different "rules" probably do.

It's more a matter of letting him in on some of the secrets of baby's developmental stages, and the joy of his own growth and differentness, so the two sets of "rules" (i.e. developmentally appropriate approaches) seem ok, and he doesn't feel stiffed. I'd focus more on getting him on-side with positive interactions with his baby sibling, and less on telling him to stop it.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by pageta

As long as your children aren't all the same age, the rules for each of them are going to be different. I don't think it is ever appropriate for them to enforce rules for each other, whether they be their rules or mine. How do you teach that distinction between authority figure (parent) and peer (sibling)?

This isn't really true though. If your older child sees your younger child do something very dangerous (crawl into the street, swallow medicine) you'd want the older child to tell you and stop it if you weren't there to do so. There are things older kids know that younger kids don't and that's okay.

I agree with the poster who suggests keeping up a running commentary on child development. What is the baby working on learning, how are they learning it, how is it different from what an older kid learns, etc.

ETA: you sort of lost me on the logic of how this relates to spanking. If I do understand it you are saying that your older child is behaving in the way you've modeled. If that's the case, I'd check how you are behaing and what you are saying. Presumably you aren't telling the baby not to play with stacking rings unless they can do it properly. You may want to start modeling "oh I see you like to hold the rings and then drop them to see what happens", etc.

[Benji'sMom]

Originally Posted by pageta

But if you follow the line of reasoning in the "spanking teaches violence" thinking (as in, children hit others because their parents hit them), I am to blame for my three-year-old telling the baby what to do and what not to do just because I've given my three-year-old guidelines for correct and incorrect behavior.

Not necessarily. The older one may just think he knows the "right way" to do it and is trying to control the situation and make the younger do it the "right way." Less about disciplining the baby and more about just going through a stage where he wants to control everything, and have toys be played with only in the "right way." And I think he'd probably do this regardless of whether you ever enforced a rule in your house, because it's more of a developmental stage for the 3 year old.

[mammastar2]

Yes, age 3 is right on target to start sorting the world into rigid categories: right/wrong, girl/boy, that sort of thing. "That isn't allowed," "Only girls can play with these kinds of toys," etc etc. Not just with younger siblings, but with everyone.

Recognizing that, and helping him to relax about the rigidity of it all a bit, is probably in order.

[edamommy]

have you discussed this with the 3 year old? My son turned 4 in march. He loves playing w/ younger children and is an "enforcer" like your son... likes to set up rules and regulations for the babies/youngsters. BUT we've discussed WHY he likes to do this (because he likes to "teach" them things... because he likes to pretend to be the mommy or daddy... etc) and he has his own rules of conduct, if you will. Does your child? Does he have appropriate boundries for being in other people's space? Like respect for another person's body... not hitting, etc? We've always reminded ds of these and, at 4, he is VERY respectful of other beings... and babies qualify as beings to us... as well as animals.

[Linda on the move]

my post came out long!

Originally Posted by pageta

You can show a three-year-old how to stack rings and instruct him not to throw them (he's strong enough to throw them hard enough to hurt something), but the baby should be able to explore the toy and do as he wishes.

I would explain that to the 3 year old. "you can throw hard enough to hurt something, but the baby can't. See,the ring only goes a little way when the baby tosses it." The 3 year old is old enough to understand the reasons behind the rules.

The three-year-old tries to make the baby follow the same rules he is given, plus many others that he makes up himself. It's not his place to "discipline" the baby - he is not the parent.

Talk to the 3 year about what the baby is capable of and not capable of, and how this changes for all of us as we get older. You might talk to the 3 year old about things that wouldn't be reasonable to expect out of him now right now that he will easily be able to do when he is older (like doing is own laundry or driving a car something).

But if you follow the line of reasoning in the "spanking teaches violence" thinking (as in, children hit others because their parents hit them), I am to blame for my three-year-old telling the baby what to do and what not to do just because I've given my three-year-old guidelines for correct and incorrect behavior.

Not sure why you need to assign blame to anyone. There is something that you need to work through with your child. That's normal. After you work through it, other things will come up that you need to work through. That's just parenting.

You might try to enjoy the process because it keeps repeating, but with different things to work through.

As long as your children aren't all the same age, the rules for each of them are going to be different. I don't think it is ever appropriate for them to enforce rules for each other, whether they be their rules or mine. How do you teach that distinction between authority figure (parent) and peer (sibling)?

We've only ever had a few rules, and they held for everybody. With the tossing example, may be you could change the rule to being that only very soft throws (such as those the baby can do) are OK. Then the rule is the same for both kids.

It's like the three-year-old has nothing else to do but "correct" the baby, take toys away from him, hit him with the toys, drag him away from things, roll him over because he should be on his back and not his stomach (don't ask me why), and on and on while the baby cries for how he's treated

Rather than push against the behavoir that you do not want, get the 3 year old busy doing something else -- like playing with playdough. Declutter and organize his toys for easier playing. Pick out 1 special open ended toy to bring into the living room each day (such as blocks or something) then put it away that night and get something different out. Set it up so that it is easy for him to be busy doing his own thing.

Teach him a few appropriate things to do for his sibling -- such a pick a good toy to be on the blanket with the baby.

Is the way that this relates to spanking that you keep reading that everything about a child is caused by the parents, therefore if you child does something undesirable it is your fault?

If so, just let it go. One nice thing about having more than one child is you soon find out that they are who they are, and we really aren't determining everything about them by our actions. I find it very freeing to see how different my kids are inspite of being raised nearly the same way. I treat them gently and respectful because I think it is the right thing to do, but they are who they are. I'm not causing them to be who they are.

I don't care for writings about parenting that say "if you do X, then your kid will be Y," as though raising children is like following a recipe, and if you get all the steps right then they will turn out right.

[Collinsky]

Originally Posted by pageta

But if you follow the line of reasoning in the "spanking teaches violence" thinking (as in, children hit others because their parents hit them), I am to blame for my three-year-old telling the baby what to do and what not to do just because I've given my three-year-old guidelines for correct and incorrect behavior.

Children will often smack each other, bite, pull hair, throw things... this is not because they have necessarily ever seen this behavior modeled but because it is a natural reaction to frustration for one with such little experience with the world, so little ability to reason and communicate. The reason spanking teaches violence is not because it is the first model of hitting. It's because it reinforces the idea that hitting is a solution. It is the opposite of modeling strategies for coping with frustration in positive ways. Rather than show a child a better way of dealing with negative emotions, it cements the immature reaction as a valid tool.

Just as what your baby is doing is totally normal and understandable for an exploring infant, what your 3 yo is doing is very age appropriate. They do become the arbiters of right and wrong, in a very black and white way. Just as you accept the baby pulling books off the shelf as a part of having a baby that age, accepting that your 3 yo is going through a "bossy" phase will help you to view it with more compassion. He has been given rules to live by, and right now he's experimenting with rules - not your own, but his own - and feeling out his power there. And just as your baby will soon be out of this stage, your older son will be as well.

I agree with a pp that having rules that apply to everyone is best, when at all possible... such as "soft throws." That is a great idea!

[boingo82]

pageta -
It sounds like you're in my house. Except that my 3 year old has a communication delay and cannot understand what I'm saying if I give explanations that have more than 6 words or so.

He "disciplines" all the time - Gavin crawls to the tv cabinet. Blake runs over, "NO GAVIN" and shoves him over. Gavin cries. I say, "Don't push the baby." Blake says, "Gavin no cabinet!" I say, "I don't care, DON'T PUSH THE BABY. Do you understand?" Blake looks at me blankly. Repeat 5 minutes later.

Except that occasionally after hitting Gavin, when I try to explain that WE DO NOT HIT, Blake will scrunch up his face and say, "My sleepin!"

I am totally at a loss, but have to say that you are not the only one with a "helpful" 3 year old.

[mamaduck]

Do you mean that maybe you are modeling "bossy behavior" and your son is in turn acting it out with someone smaller?

Maybe. But I don't think thats the whole story. mamastar2 is correct -- it is age appropriate for him to be organizing the universe into sets of fixed rules, and the fact that he is using a haphazard system of his own making/control is also appropriate for his age. By the time he is about 5, he'll adopt more conventional rules, but he'll still be really rigid about them. Just like the baby is acting on developmentally normal impulses by exploring the world around him, your 4 yo. is acting on developmentally normal impulses by trying to make rather rigid sense of "the way that we do things."

Does your son have a doll? I wonder if a good doll, and maybe a doll stroller, would help him to act these things out with a more appropriate object! Beyond that, my only suggestion is to echo what others have said: Try to channel his interest into more helpful actions. Work with him on how to interact with the baby, how to help, how to play -- give him lessons.

As far as "spanking teaches violence," -- yeah, a lot of kids go through hitting phases whether they are hit themselves or not. I think this philosophy applies more to a life-long learning process. When a person grows up being hit, they learn to accept violent behavior as a normal solution to life's problems, and violence becomes an acceptable aspect of their world view.

[pageta]

So by keeping them separate as much as possible (i.e. sending the 3-year-old outside to play in our fenced backyard and keeping the baby in with me) isn't ignoring the situation since it is age-appropriate behavior?

I'm reading the Siblings Without Rivalry and How to talk to your kids so they will listen books, but I'm at a complete loss as to why the 3-year-old immediately upon wakening goes over and starts hitting the baby (regardless of whether the baby is awake and fussing or sound asleep). Or why he walks over to him and just hits him for no reason all day long. My husband comes home and asks the three-year-old what he did all day, and he'll say he hit the baby and took toys away from him. Which is exactly what he did. I just don't get it. If I could figure out his motivation, perhaps I could channel his energies otherwise. But all I can think of is to tell him not to do that...over and over again...which is not working.

[mammastar2]

Well, leaving aside the 'correction' he directs towards the baby, and just looking at the hitting and taking the toys away, he sounds like he's having a hard time dealing with not being your baby anymore.

Around the 6 to 8 month mark, a new sibling starts being more mobile and 'into' things, and it is easy for resentment to develop - especially if big brother has a general sense of unfairness because he sees the baby being able to do stuff or get certain types of attention that he can't, and doesn't understand why.

I wouldn't recommend just sending him off to play on his own as a regular coping strategy, although it may be helpful on occasion. If he's feeling resentful now, that could increase it. As suggested above, I'd focus on working on how to interact more positively with the baby, and helping him to understand the baby's developmental stages. If you are going to 'separate' them, I'd have it be for something that is special for the 3 year old, like a particular activity or playdate that he will enjoy, a 'big brother' privilege.

[dawncayden]

I think I would give the 3 yo special things to do or play with. Like a special game that only he can play with at a certain time.
Can you and him have special time together where its just the two of you playing? Like baby's nap time? Or can you get a mothers helper, so you can have some one on one time with your 3 yo?
IMO, it sounds like he is really bored and is trying to get your attention, and what better way to get attention, then to involve himself with what your usually involved with (the baby)
I second the idea about getting a doll, so he can act out his frustrations with an object and not his real sibling.

I wouldn't focus on the hitting so much, but I'd try to see why the hitting is happening. Maybe the baby has just had a lot of your attention and the 3 yo, starts hitting, so he gets some attention too. And then you can talk with him about how he can actually tell you that he wants 'mommy time' instead of hurting the baby as a way of telling you.

Dawn

[SmilesALot]

Hi

I can understand your bewilderment when the older one goes and hits the baby for no reason. My ds was around 3 yrs old when my baby was born and he did hit my dd (2-3 months old) about 2-3 times on her head (close to the soft spot). I was quite enraged will all my postpartum hormones as well although i was very close and attached to my son. This happened when my mother-in-law who had come to help us with my delivery was holding the baby. I probably (i am guessing here since i never know about myself at that postpartum period) would not have reacted very strongly but my MIL being there and expecting me to do something about it made me remove him and yell at him a couple of times. I would say i lost it. I gave him lots of attention even after the baby was born to avoid any jealousy situation. But it still happened a few times - say 3-4 times.

I hope giving your ds more attention (if you think it is not sufficient) and being alert when he is near the baby avoids these situations. There are other posts in mothering where i have read moms carrying their younger ones on a sling if they are unable to be near them to prevent hitting while the older one exhibits such behavior.

I hope it works out better in the coming weeks!
Peace & Love!

ETA: i added the wrong icon and do not know how to remove it now!! i wanted to show a perplexed/confused face.

[mlec]

Originally Posted by pageta

I'm at a complete loss as to why the 3-year-old immediately upon wakening goes over and starts hitting the baby (regardless of whether the baby is awake and fussing or sound asleep). Or why he walks over to him and just hits him for no reason all day long. My husband comes home and asks the three-year-old what he did all day, and he'll say he hit the baby and took toys away from him. Which is exactly what he did.

My 3.5 yo dd hits the baby too and it drives me INSANE. I can feel my heart pounding. How do you keep your cool?!

[gottaknit]

I do not agree that "spanking teaches violence". Violent behavior is, unfortunately, normal human behavior. Spanking teaches that violence is an acceptable solution to conflict.

A three-year-old hitting a baby has nothing to do with the parents modelling bad behavior. They need to be socialized to learn that hitting is wrong.

I'm pretty sure that psychologically speaking, a four-year-old doesn't know right from wrong. That's why they do the same "bad" things like hitting over and over and over even after being corrected. I don't think "right and wrong" comes until around age six.

It seems to me that all toddlers are "bossy" to some extent. Our DS has all sorts of rules for playing with his toys that he tries to enforce on me and DH. It'll be interesting to see how he treats his little sister when she's that age. It seems like all we can do is correct them repeatedly until they finally "get it", but most importantly, they need fairly constant supervision when they're together or the baby may end up being hurt.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by pageta

. My husband comes home and asks the three-year-old what he did all day, and he'll say he hit the baby and took toys away from him. Which is exactly what he did. .

This is hilarious. I know in the heat of the moment it doesn't seem so funny, but I just love the bluntness and honesty of three year olds.

Originally Posted by pageta

But all I can think of is to tell him not to do that...over and over again...which is not working.

Yeah, that's not going to work. You have to beat him to the punch (literally). You say you can't figure out his motivation. Well, I would guess that he's totally pissed off at being displaced as the number one member of his family, he's not going to be mad at you and dh about it since that's way too scary, and he's secure and emotionally healthy enough to express himself.

The thing is, you won't be able to make him feel differently. You can help him feel safe, you can help him learn more appropriate ways to express himself, and you can continue to be there for him, but you can't force him to love his brother. He has the right to grieve (which I believe they really do have to do). However, your baby also has the right to be safe and unharmed. It's a sticky situation!

The best advice I ever received in this situation was just to practice prevention. So, yeah, you have to basically baby-proof your baby. Don't leave them unattended together, keep yourself between them, don't give him the chance to hurt the baby. Be subtle about it, you don't want him to see that you don't trust him...but don't trust him! I think if you help the older sibling get out of the rut of acting out their angry feelings toward the baby, it'll help them move on sooner, and help keep you calm!