Confused about circumcision

[becoming]

Gosh, can you tell I have nothing to do at work? I'm a posting fool today!

Here's the deal: My DH and I still have not resolved the circumcision issue. I am absolutely, positively, 100% against it, and he wants to have it done. His reasons are that he doesn't want him to be made fun of later in life, and that he doesn't want him to be the only uncirc'ed male in the house (DH & DS1 are both circ'ed).

We had a discussion that turned into a sort of argument about it when I was about 20 weeks along, and we hadn't talked about it at all since then. Well, a couple weeks ago, DH was looking at my shopping list for baby stuff, and he saw that I had written down "non-stick gauze pads" with a question mark beside it. He said, "What are the gauze pads for?" I said, "We'll need them if we're going to have him circumcised." He goes, "I thought we weren't having him circumcised."

:

I think one of the kids came in asking a question or something at that point, so we didn't get to discuss it anymore at that point. Since then, I've been afraid to bring it up again, because I don't know if his opinion has changed, or if he just thought I was going to be controlling about it and put my foot down. (Probably the latter.) I'm kind of thinking if I just ride it out and wait until the actual birth when it's time to make the decision, he'll just go with the flow and let me say no. Then again, I don't want it to come down to making the actual decision and DH decide it's time to duke it out! Above all, I *really* don't want DH to feel like I'm leaving him out of this decision. A big reason why we separated/divorced several years ago was because he felt like I left him out of decisions and the day-to-day care of our son, so I try really hard to avoid making him feel that way these days.

What would you do?

[luckydog]

I certainly would not agree to circumcision until it's duked out.

My approach would be that not being circumsized is a reversible, non-procedure and your boy can make the decision to get it done when he's old enough to do so in an informed, consensual way.

Your DH is arguing with the wrong person - he needs to make the case with his son.

I know this is really complicated by having a circ'd DS already. But it's just the old "when you know better, you do better." My kids will hear a lot of that growing up about various parenting decisions I've made...

[~Demeter~]

I agree with Bee.. and I'll give you my experience. My boys all are and if I could go back and change it I would. That would be the only thing I would change. Dh was quite adamant in the beginning that if we had another boy he would be circ'd as well. I don't know how I did it but somehow I managed to educate him... to see where it was wrong. I just kept gently bringing up the topic with him and eventually he started to see things my way. In the past few months he's become quite the intactivist... never thought I'd say that about him.

[ahdoula]

Well I don't think it is important enough to get divorced over meaning if you think it will put detrimental (sp) stress on the marriage, someone should give in.

As for us, DH is circ, DS is not. The rates are nearing 50/50 now, I don't think teasing down the road will be a big issue. I had two solutions when DH DID want to circ. First I told him how I felt and why, handed him some simple researcha nd said it was his call. BUT

1.) he had to WATCH the circ

2. I told DH that if we didn't circ then we'd simply say to our son someday, if he ever asked why he was different than his dad then (as gently as possible) we'd say "Well, when your dad was a baby, they thought it was best to cut off some of his penis. When you were born we knew it was not best."

Would ANY boy of any age acually think he would rather have some of his penis cut off to look like his dad!!?! I think any little boy would say a great big "thank you!"

It all sounds a little harsh, but my DH relented, we did not circ and if you ask my DH about it now, after he has learned more as we have gone along, he is very glad for the choice "he" made!

[springbabes]

Originally Posted by becoming

His reasons are that he doesn't want him to be made fun of later in life, and that he doesn't want him to be the only uncirc'ed male in the house (DH & DS1 are both circ'ed).

I have 4 brothers. My dad and the 3 oldest are all circ'd but my mom decided with the 4th that she just couldn't go through with it again. My youngest brother is 15 and as far as I know it's never ever been an issue that he's the only intact male in the house. My son is intact and recently took a shower with his circ'd friend. Later he wanted to know why his friend's penis looked like an acorn. I explained to him that his friend had had the tip of penis cut off when he was a baby. Of course, DS was aghast and wanted to know if the same could happen to him. He was quite relieved to learn that his penis was safe. I just don't see how a boy could be disappointed to learn that he has more penis .

I don't think I could ever agree to a circumcision. If my DH wanted to divorce me over it, then that would be his choice. When you're mentioning having to buy gauze--I'm sorry, but I just couldn't do it.

My sister had a lot of arguments with her DH before their son was born. They started discussing it once in front of my other sister, my brother's wife, and me. It was 4 against 1 and it was an argument her DH couldn't win . He kept insisting that their son would feel like a freak if he were left intact even though I kept pointing out to him that the two boys he's most likely to be naked around--my son and my brother's son--are intact: . My sis finally had to put her foot down and refuse to allow the circ. I suppose her DH got over it.

I'm sorry you're having to go through this. It does sound promising that he is assuming the decision had already been made by you. Good luck!

[imgr8ful]

He goes, "I thought we weren't having him circumcised."

the fact that he said this says a lot.

are you having a home birth or hospital? dh and ds1 are circ'ed, ds2 is not and this one won't be either. when ds2 was born we were kinda in the "undecided" stage also, well, i knew it wouldn't happen, but dh was still kind of iffy on the decision, mostly because he wasn't sure what it'd be like having two brothers different. anyway, ds2 was born at home and i think just that changed dh's mind...not sure why, but all of a sudden he saw no reason to schedule an appt w/ a dr to get it done.

[awallrising]

Sorry, I'm sneaking in from June....looks like I might have July baby anyway.

First of all, I believe that the circ to no-circ ratio is about 50%, so he's not going to be made fun of in the locker room or someplace like that (guys don't really check other guys penises out all that much). If his bros make fun of him, you will have to put a stop to it and explain the reason for the difference. I think we are moving towards a non-circ mentality, so less & less boys will be circ'd as time goes by.

I would go along with the assumption that DH made about baby not being circ'd. DH & I discussed it a lot & I finally got him to believe that it was not medically necessary & that there was no good reason to do it (DH is circ'd). He actually isn't 100% convinced but I don't care.

Besides, there is NOTHING wrong with a Mother putting her foot down on this topic & protecting her child. I was planning to fight to the bitter end if I had too. It's not a decision about a haircut. It's a painful, terrible thing to do to a baby.

[Panthira]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand the whole circumcision issue, especially when the major arguement is people being afraid their son will be made fun of. It seems like only in this country are we still so cut-happy with our boys' penises. My DH is from Canada and it's very rare there. My FIL is from Germany and no one circumcizes there, they just think it's freaky weird we do that archaic stuff in the states!

None of my boys are circumcisized, not even my oldest when it was much more common 15 yrs ago to cut off a piece of your child's private part. Think about 15 yrs from now when most boys AREN'T circumsized. Will your boy be made fun of then when he gets teased for having a piece of his manhood cut off, leaving a visible scar?

To me, it seems like when a man who is so ademant that his son "look like him" or needs to have his son's penis cut because his is cut, it's a sign of insecurity on the man's part. He'd have to think that he might have something missing and regret that.

[ChelseaG]

Wow - I am in almost the exact same position with my DH - he originally wanted to circ our son - because he thought that is what you do with baby boys - I presented him with a lot of articles and information - and got him to agree that it wasn't medically necessary - but he was still leaning toward having it done for the "locker room" and "look like dad" ridiculous reasons
I kept forwarding him new studies and articles to read - but we really haven't discussed it for about 6 months... Then - just a few days ago - I was typing up a birth plan for a hospital transfer (planning a home birth) and on the birth plan it says "we DO NOT want our baby circumcised or given any vaccinations,etc." I gave this plan to DH to proof-read and he gave it back to me saying it was perfect...
Now - I am thinking - either he has decided to agree with me - or he skimmed over the birth plan and really didn't read it - and, like you I haven't really had the energy to approach the subject again in case it does become a knock-down drag-out fight again...
My wimp out plan was - if he REALLY insists he wants it done and it is important to him - that I would tell him we can circ our son if HE (our son) decides he wants this "cosmetic surgery" done later in life... Just getting DH to agree to delay the procedure (I have told him it is a much safer and a more accurate surgery if done on an older kid rather than an infant - not to mention you won't have an open wound festering in a diaper with feces and urine) was a win in my book - as I am 99% sure if we delay it - it will never be done...
Ugh - kinda makes me hope this baby is a girl just to avoid the whole issue again
Good luck!

[riomidwife]

Originally Posted by becoming

Above all, I *really* don't want DH to feel like I'm leaving him out of this decision. A big reason why we separated/divorced several years ago was because he felt like I left him out of decisions and the day-to-day care of our son, so I try really hard to avoid making him feel that way these days.

If your priority is to share in the decision making, seems like it would be best to communicate about this issue sooner rather than later.

I have encountered many couples who are split on the issue. They all work it out different ways. Quite often I hear the mom tell the dad if he wants the kid to get get cut he has to take him in himself to do it---and that often never happens! Or, mom says they have to witness one first, and the experience of watching a baby have part of his penis cut off is often traumatizing enough for dad that he backs off.

I agree that the "my son will be made fun of" argument is a little thin. A LOT of my male friends who are cut and who have educated themselves about the issue have deep sadness and regret about having the foreskin forceably removed without their consent. And none of my male friends with intact penises report being made fun of. Also, when these young men discover that generally women report higher rates of sexual satisfaction with intact partners--that's a big confidence boost! IME when dads who have been circ'd can get to a place where they can really open to the issue and hear all sides, the teasing argument falls by the wayside a bit.

BTW, Texas, among other states, recently revised their Medicaid guidelines so that it will not pay for circumcision (considered an elective surgery),

[manitobamama]

I am with Springbabes, I would stand firm and protect my son even if divorce was thrown in as his defense. This is just something I would not back down from! And I would take the whole I thought we weren't having it done as he is going along with you. Personally I wouldn't bring it up again and I wouldn't make any other issue about it! JMO!
[quote=Panthira;8486503]I'm sorry, I just don't understand the whole circumcision issue, especially when the major arguement is people being afraid their son will be made fun of. It seems like only in this country are we still so cut-happy with our boys' penises. My DH is from Canada and it's very rare there. My FIL is from Germany and no one circumcizes there, they just think it's freaky weird we do that archaic stuff in the states!

quote]
Actually Panthira your hubby has a beautiful intact penis because of his German father not because he is Canadian. In Canada the circ rates are the same as the states. Now I think the rates are changing primarily because you have to pay for circ (not covered by our health insurance) and find a doc that will preform one! In the 1970's most boys were circ'd, I'd say probably 80 - 90% were cut and only the new immigrants kept their sons intact. My dad (1st generation Canadian) and my brother (1978) were both cut. Which is why I feel so lucky to have found a man left intact! Dh's mother is from Germany so his penis was saved! He does remember being different from the other boys in the change room but doesn't remember it bothering him or being teased (as he was probably the only one!) We (my friends and I) have asked him lots of questions about how it felt being 'different' and other probably embarrassing questions that he just shakes his head and answers!
But it did become an issue in his first marriage because she's an idiot (for lots of other reasons!)and didn't like his intact penis: ! So when I inquired when we first met, (yes I asked, since I prefer intact men) he was hesitant to say he was intact. And to his surprise I was delighted! I had dated a German man who was intact for a few years and I did not want to date a non intact man again!

This is something I am very passionate about although if my dd's had been boys sadly they probably would have been cut because I didn't know any better. I wasn't educated nor did I have the access to the information. As someone else said when you know better you do better! I also spanked my dd's and would NEVER do that to this babe! Circ is just as abusive imo!

[pwit]

AHdoula I took the same approach as you.

[LISSA~K]

We don't circ either, and I understand not wanting to damage your relationship with DH, but honestly if it were me I would never give in. Over my dead body would anyone circ my sons or my daughters, but then I'm rather passionate about the subject, can you tell?

[marziechar]

Yeah, as above, I think you shouldn't get divorced over this.....

I don't have incredibly strong feelings about this. I agree the locker room teasing is SUCH a weak arguement, but sometimes the pro-circ-circ'd-guys just don't know why exactly they want their sons to be circ'd. I honestly think if they really looked deeply into themselves, they'd realise there is some pain and resentment revolving them being cut, though.

Since I don't agree that boys should be circ'd (I believe it's TOTALLY child abuse), and we're having a homebirth, AND I usually have to do all the research about everything from health insurance to vacations, I'm pretty confident that my husband won't A) do the research about how to even go about getting this done, nor B) do/witness it without me standing by his side, C) bring it up with our obviously against-circ-midwife....I think our baby's pretty safe.

I will however agree to discussing the surgery with my grown son if and when it does become an issue. I'm not against medicated cosmetic surgery with some good discussion/counseling.

[becoming]

Just wanted to come back and emphasize that we are in no way getting divorced over this issue. We don't treat divorce as an option anymore. There's no way DH would actually get so mad over this that he would consider leaving, or anything like that. I just meant that I don't want him to start feeling the way he did before our divorce (which was years ago) -- the feeling of not being involved in decision-making when it comes to our kids. Now that I know how important that is to him, and how upset he gets when not included in these things, I want him to always feel involved.

[Juvysen]

My husband and I agreed that if it becomes an issue for our son we would re-evaluate, but if you circ it's not something you can un-do. We figured that if he's being teased when he's in high school we can make sure he's FULLY INFORMED and then let him make the decision as to whether or not to have it done. There's some evidence that circing later in life causes less damage than it does in an infant... the only difference is that later in life the man already knows what an uncirc'd penis can do, so he notices the loss of sensation, etc. Like, if you're born w/out a hand, you don't miss being able to touch things w/your fingers, but if your hand is cut off it's an obvious big difference.

[SleepyMamaBear]

Above all, I *really* don't want DH to feel like I'm leaving him out of this decision.

but, its not HIS decision to make.
nor is it yours.
its your sons.
so, default to no-circ and if your child later on in life wants it done, he can have it done.
no need to mutilate his genitalia without his consent just because you guys cant come to a decision.

sorry if i sound so harsh, but its a big sore point with me when i get the feeling that people think "well i dont feel so strongly about it, so i will default to mutilation, cause everyone else is ok with it"

[mely]

I have one who is and one who isn't and it really isn't that big of a deal. I've never had a problem with the guys looking at each other saying hey yours is different... not even in the locker room...

Guys will use the locker room argument - however from what I've heard - noone wants to be accused of meat gazing so they try to keep their eyes to themselves...

[ahdoula]

Originally Posted by mely

Guys will use the locker room argument - however from what I've heard - noone wants to be accused of meat gazing so they try to keep their eyes to themselves...

I never thought of that!

[jee'smom]

Originally Posted by mely

I have one who is and one who isn't and it really isn't that big of a deal. I've never had a problem with the guys looking at each other saying hey yours is different... not even in the locker room...

Guys will use the locker room argument - however from what I've heard - noone wants to be accused of meat gazing so they try to keep their eyes to themselves...

If anyone says anything to my son, I've already decided to tell my ds to say "Dude, what're you looking at my d**k for?" That should stop any comments!

BTW, I haven't posted anything yet b/c I'm COMPLETELY and TOTALLY against ANYONE strapping/holding down ANY of my kids and cutting them up. I get physically sick about how scary and traumatic that must feel (could you imagine being tied down, spread eagle, while someone cut your genitals up...) I've witnessed one in person, and seen a female circumcision on a video... gruesome and traumatic to say the least. Anyway, my dh was stuck on the whole "I want him to look like dad thing" and was NOT budging. He said "I WILL win this argument!" I then found out from MIL that FIL is intact. So, one day I said to dh "Well, you didn't look like your father." He was like "What're you talking about, my father is circumcised!" I laughed and said, "No, he's not... he's intact. Your mom told me. Shows how valid of an argument that is! Your father's intact, and you never even noticed!" Then, one day I told him to watch the circumcision video. He stopped what he was doing and said, "You know, I've been thinking... I really respect the amount of time and effort that you put into researching this, and I really think that if we don't do it, I'll eventually get over it; but if we do do it, you'll never get over it. I really respect you as a mother, and so we don't have to do it." Clever man, huh?