He looked up her dress.......

[wwhippetcrazy]

I don't know if I should post this somewhere else but there was an incident yesterday that freaked me out (I posted this in the July momma's thread too)
.....the neighbour had some other kids over and since dd is still peeing in the potty, I just put a dress on her and let her run around, she goes when she needs too outside and is always around me....well my girlfriends daughter saw one of the boys lift up Evy's dress and was looking at her, he ran when friends daughter asked what he was doing...she's pretty sure he didn't touch Evy, but not 100% cause he had his back to friend!!!! I was standing right there for **** sakes, with my back to them, but man!!!
Totally freaked me out!!!
What if was running through my head all night....then I felt guilty for letting dd run around 1/2 naked (dress covers it all), but man, she's not even 2....this boy was 8-10 yrs and apparently (I find out after from girlfriend) has been accused of acting inappropriately to his younger sister (who was there at the time too). Thank god my girlfriends daughter was there!!!! His parents were not there....his aunt is my neighbour and she didn't say much when I told her today. :

In talking to my girlfriend about it today, she mentioned that some people (not her) would say that it was my fault!! WTF, like I don't have enough of the what if, why did I, am I wrong running through my head....the worse part is I really wonder if it is wrong now...I mean we ran around naked and I mean really naked until we were like 5 when we were kids.....and we lived in the city....not in the rural sticks like we do now. I just don't get it!
She was getting at the fact that some people think it's wrong or are uncomfortable with kids run around naked at any age, maybe I'm naive...I didn't really think of it this way when kid are under 5.

I honestly never thought of it this way....I can see how some people might get upset on one hand, but don't get it on the other. She's learning to potty, she's 22 months old.....man! I never thought I'd have to worry about that kind of stuff in the sticks!!

I was also thinking of letting her run around without diapers on while camping this weekend....Yes she'd wear a dress, but now I don't know.....what do you all think???
I'm not as freaked as I was yesterday....it just makes me wonder though.

Thanks for reading,
Jen

[Nikki Christina]

wow.. If they boy ran off when asked.. he knew he was doing something wrong.. with that & the accusations about his sister..Id talk to his mom about it & if she dosent look into some type of therapy Id bring someone else in on it .. I dont even know who youd call though

not your fault tho.. I would have done the same thing

[wwhippetcrazy]

I hear you!
That's why I told the aunt hoping she'd say something to him or his mom since they're family. I don't even know who his mom is, she doesn't live here.
Maybe she will say something (it's her sister in laws kid), but who knows.....

Jen

[Piglet68]

Therapy? You're kidding, right?

A boy that age looking up a girl's dress is about as normal as a dog licking it's butt. It makes us uncomfortable, but it ain't pathological!

I think a mountain is being made out of a molehill. And whoever told you that it's your fault for not putting undies on your toddler is part of the problem, not the solution, IMHO. What a load of bull-cookies!!

[Quirky]

Piglet, did you get that the boy is between eight and ten and Jen's daughter is only 22 months? I'm not sure that it's pathological behavior but it's certainly way out of line. I don't think Jen should be accused of making a mountain out of a molehill, I'd be upset too if it were my daughter.

I would definitely talk to the boy's mother. As far as camping, I would see who's around - make your decision based on who you're going to be interacting with, and what your comfort level is.

[Nikki Christina]

natural to be curious...not normal to actually do it IMO..

when does it become inapropriate for him to do so ? at age 12.. 13? should they wait ill then & keep letting the boy do this?

[Greaseball]

When I was in grade school (in a large city) the boys grew out of that behavior between age 7 and 8. And at the time they were doing it, it was with girls who were around the same age, even though there were much younger girls around.

The boy's behavior does not sound normal, nor is it your fault. It's not your dd who should have to wear something under her dress, it's this boy who shouldn't be looking in the first place!

[Piglet68]

I did get the ages of the children. What I didn't get was that the boy's actions were sexual in nature. I mean, don't boys that age think seeing your underwear is "risque"? Aren't farts and other bodily functions the source of great amusement? That's what I meant by normal behaviour. Interesting that most here seem to have jumped to the conclusion that the boy's motivation was sexual (and I mean that as a reflection of society, not anybody in particular).

Why are we so quick to assume that a boy that age was interested in seeing genitals for the purpose of sexual stimulation? How did he know the kid wasn't wearing anything under there - he probably was trying to tease her by showing her undies, etc. I mean, seems to me that boys that age are all about teasing, and when it involves undies that seems to raise the humour factor up a few notches.

I dunno, I just think that we as a society are a little paranoid about the myth of the child as sexual predator. I'm betting this kid was just being a kid, not trying to get turned on by the sight of a toddler's bare genitals.

Also, I didn't mean Jen was making too big an issue out of it, I think the "advice" she got was...

[1boy1girl]

Remember the age old poem "I saw London, I saw France..."? That's probably all the kid was doing. He may need to curb his curiosity a little bit but I don't think he was being a pervert if he even would know how!

[DreamerMama]

I have very mixed emotions about this subject.

1) I was molested as a child and I have problems dealing with these issues. Had she been my dd, I would have flipped. I also wouldn't have let her go without panties (personal issues and preference about this). This situation would have brought up a lot of deep personal feeling regarding safety, vulnerability, violation, etc.
Those are all just my personal feelings, not reality, kwim?

2) I have a nine year old boy, enough said. Boys like to embarass and torment little girls, it's part of their gig. We have a three year old neice that can't stand my son because he insists on teasing her. Although annoying, it is common and natural at this age. For example; my son would never intentionaly look at a little girls bum, but he may flip up her dress to annoy her. My ds has seen enough of his sis's bum to know it's not a big deal.

I think in the end, I would have calmed my mother bear responce, and realized that it was (in essence) innocent play.

Jenny

[Peppermint]

I don't know, I also thought that maybe he was just looking cause he had noticed that she wasn't wearing underwear: But, maybe he has a problem, since you had heard that he was doing inappropriate things with his sister. I would not let him play unsupervised in the future with my child, as I'm sure is already your plan. It could be completely innocent, but on the risk that it's not....

Also, abusive people usually start out with warning around age 10-12, they don't usually start as adults, KWIM? I think 8 is pretty young, 10 is older, I don't know.

I think the best answer is constant supervision of him, since you can't be sure if it was innocent or not.

Isn't the whole idea sad though? I disagree with the assertion that child preditor fears are going overboard, it is MNSHO that people are not worried enough about it, I understand that people fear that we will repress our children's curiosity-which is normal, but seriously, I think that most people could stand to be more scared about sex abuse (not necessarily this situation, but in life) We had the kids out playing in the kiddie pool the other day, we didn't have their bathing suits on, I was planning to just let dd (age 3) go in her dress and underpants, and ds go in his diaper. Well, dd wanted her dress off, so dh and I both said ok, and then later, admitted to each other that we felt uncomfortable, worrying about some sicko in the neighborhood (we don't know of any) walking by and seeing her. Her body looks like a child, not a baby, and certainly not an adult. Not sure if we felt that way b/c her body doesn't look "baby" anymore, or b/c she's a girl, anywho, we let her walk around the house naked all the time, but outside, we were both worried that some sick person would "enjoy" seeing her. So sad..........

[Piglet68]

Just wanted to clarify that I have serious doubts about the "child as sexual predator" theory. You know, six year old boy is busted for sexual harrassment because he tried to kiss a classmate, that sort of thing.

Certainly, children can be victims of sexual predator adults, and that's something that concerns all of us.

(and I was actually lying in bed at night thinking that my comment about the "bad advice" Jen got would appear to be a criticism of those posting here..it was not - I was referring to the way the people around Jen reacted, like trying to suggest it was her fault, etc....hope I didn't offend anyone!)

[veganmamma]

I think normally I would agree with Piglet, but I would be more cautious because he's been accused of something in the past. Around here I don't see a lot of nekkid kids and that kind of freaks me out, kwim? Like people are afraid or think it's inappropriate? I don't think you need to change your whole style of no dipe/undies with a dress, but maybe just don't do it around this particular kid. At least for your own sake. This must have been really hard for you. It IS NOT your fault. Your dd is a BABY and she should be able to go around nekkid anywhere she pleases.
Lauren
Piglet, you and I were posting at the same time! I was talking about your earlier posts in my post but just wanted to let you know that I understood what you meant about "bad advice" You are too cute lying in bed at night wondering if you've offended people. I mean, I lie in bed at night sometimes thinking about MDC too, but usually i've been a lot more offensive than saying someone got "bad advice." too cute.

[wwhippetcrazy]

This is why I love this board!!!
YOu guys made me feel better about the fact that
a) that dd is young and wearing no diaper outside isn't a big deal
b) that is isn't MY fault regardless of what the intention or lack of there was
c) perhaps he was only curious....that did cross my mind....when talking to my friend the next day...I did say that maybe he was being curious, but not with my dd! Before this happened he (and other kids) were playing with dd nicely, with me watching and other adults around watching, they played tag and ball and they would tickle her....maybe he noticed that she didn't have a diaper on and thought it was funny?
I did feel bad rushing to the sexual abuse theory, but just the way he ran after friends kid asked what he was doing....and my friend was abused as a child, so on some level it has me more paranoid (for lack of a better word)....that kind of freaked me out.....I don't want to rush to those ideas....that I think freaked me out more than anything, like I said we ran around naked all the time as kids....it's just not something I thought I'd have to think about with dd so young and living in the bush where we all know each other kwim??
I also didn't really know what to think about him in general....like someone else said when do boys or girls for that matter, know that it is wrong, 6, 8, 12.....I know everyone matures at different ages too. I don't know what exactly he has been accused of doing with his sister....maybe it's just harmless playing Dr or whatever and it was/is blown out of proportion kwim??

I wasn't at all offended by anything anyone posted....sorry you lost some sleep over my post Piglet
It is definately a Mama bear reaction ....and something that I think may be in my mind too, more so then in the kids minds...obviously dd wouldn't think anything of it....and who knows what the boy was thinking....I just don't like that I jumped to that conclusion either.

As for camping, I will probably let her run around without a diaper on while she's around us...but with her dress on...

Thanks so much for the discussion all!!! Like I said it is the different opinions on the subject that help give it perspective to me.....
Jen

[Greaseball]

I disagree with the assertion that child preditor fears are going overboard, it is MNSHO that people are not worried enough about it, I understand that people fear that we will repress our children's curiosity-which is normal, but seriously, I think that most people could stand to be more scared ab

ITA, most of the time. I am sick of hearing "Oh, boys will be boys" every time they do something like this. Of course, I think what really matters is how the girl involved felt at the time.

If there are sexual predators around my kid is going to be in danger no matter what she is wearing or not wearing. Sexual predators don't go "Oh darn, that kid has clothes on; I guess I'm not sexually attracted to her." I don't force dd to be naked in public, though. Recently dh and I were at the river and he wanted to let dd swim naked, which I rejected mainly because of the poop factor but also because there were other people there and they were wearing clothes. I don't think dd should be the only naked one. If everyone there was naked I might have felt OK about dd being naked too.

I don't think that one child having rights to personal space (or a parent insisting on that child's right) is the same thing as repressing the curiosity of another child. If a child is curious about genitals, I'd have them look at a book or see an educational video.

[eilonwy]

Originally posted by Piglet68
Just wanted to clarify that I have serious doubts about the "child as sexual predator" theory. You know, six year old boy is busted for sexual harrassment because he tried to kiss a classmate, that sort of thing.

When I was 4 years old, I was gang raped by 6 boys between the ages of 9 and 14. It happens. At the time, they were huge. Might as well have been grownups, but they were kids. They had all come from abusive homes, and had learned some awful things. I think that if a 9 year old boy was trying to look up my 2 year old's dress, I would get hysterical. Maybe it's natural for them to be curious, but you never know where a child that age will draw the line.

[laralou]

I have a 9yo ds and if he was trying to look up the dress of a 2yo, I would be seriously concerned!

That said, please don't feel that you did anything to bring this on. My ds sees little girls in their bathing suits at the pool all the time. He is not the slightest bit curious or interested in what is underneath. Now a grown woman in a bikini, that might interest him (not that he'd admit it), but not a two year old.

If he ever did anything like that, I would be humiliated, but I would want to know so I could address it with him. I doubt too that it is pathological, but I don't think considering the ages that it is normal.

That is all my non-expert opinion based on having a 9yo boy with lots of 9yo friends around.

[veganmamma]

OMG eilonwy- I am so sorry you had to go through that. If I had an experience like that I would be terrified to let dd go near any boys ever.


I think that every situation has to be taken separately and incident by incident with an understanding of past events also.

Also, I remember a boy at my school growing up who ahd serious problems and seemed totally harmless and it turned out he was molested and was molesting a younger boy at his daycare. Since his parents (One of whom was probably molesting him, we all thought it was his father) couldn't afford to take off work he ended up insupervised at home after school to keep him from hurting other kids which just made him a bigger target and victim.

I do not believe in my heart of hearts that any child is capable of being a sexual predator unless they have been targeted for some form of abuse themselves.

I'm getting OT from the OP but I think it's relevant to the discussion.
Lauren

[wwhippetcrazy]

Very relavent Veganmamma......
I was hoping that a discussion might come of this.

eilonwy..... ....thank you for letting us know that it does happen.

Laralou....it is good to have the opinion of a mom of a 9 yr old....
There are lots of boys around here and none of them have acted like this one.....from what I gather, the whole family is a little "weird". (according to those who live around here anyways)
He's definately not going to be around my little one again!

Jen

[Arduinna]

well I think alot of assumptions are beig made based on second hand info that the boy had acted "inappropriately" with his sister. First off the OP doesn't actually know what if anything actually happened with the sister (unless she does but chose not to post it). So now the boy is being assumed to be guilty of having the wrong intention based on this heresay. The term inappropriate could mean alot of things. It doesn't necessarily mean sexual assault of some kind. Maybe he also tried to lift up his sisters skirt? That doesn't make him a child molestor.

I remember being in 6th grade and our teacher made all us girls wear shorts under our dresses because boys like to get us all embarrassed by flipping our skirts up. We were 12 year olds so I don't see a boy his age doing this as a sign of a sexual predator.

And the idea that anyone would blame a mother or her child for not wearing a diaper to explain this has their own issues to contend with IMO.