He looked up her dress....... - Page 2

[Greaseball]

I remember being in 6th grade and our teacher made all us girls wear shorts under our dresses because boys like to get us all embarrassed by flipping our skirts up.

Yet another example of victim-blaming on the part of the teacher...why didn't she just make the boys stop flipping girls' skirts up?

[wwhippetcrazy]

You're right Arduinna, I don't really know what has happened if anything to this boy....and I don't know what "in-appropriate" behaviour he has "alleged" to have done to his sister......I only know what my neighbours here have said about the situation, and that is why the situation bothered me so much....I jumped to the conclusion that he was doing something "abusive" to my dd, and I didn't really like jumping to that conclusion kwim?? I don't want to think that everyone is trying to do something "sexual" or whatever to my dd....I don't want her to think it's wrong if she's running around naked (not that I think she would at 22months).....

What I was hoping to get from posting this was to know it was ok to let my dd run around naked or whatever....I find it hard to believe that things have changed so much from when I was a kid and ran around naked.....
And to see if this was a somewhat "normal" thing for a kid to do....I know that boys do tease girls etc....but it just seemed odd....and the way my friends daughter told me what happened, just freaked me out.

Sometimes I really wish that thinking of sexual predators was something of the past....something I wouldn't have to worry about.....but I don't think I can keep Dd in a bubble....as much as I'd sometimes like too

Thanks!!
Jen

[Arduinna]

I see it as preventative. BTW, the teacher didn't work recess and was not in charge of all the boys in our elementary school.

I think using the term victim in this instance is excessive and demeaning to those that really have been victimized.

[Arduinna]

What I was hoping to get from posting this was to know it was ok to let my dd run around naked or whatever....

I think it's entirely appropraite to let her run around naked at her age. It does seem that some of the neighborhood friends don't think so though and they could easily pass on their disapproval (or whatever they feel) to you dd about it. So I would be on guard about that.

I also did the no diapers method of potty training while we were around the house.

[wwhippetcrazy]

You're right about some of the neighbours....it's weird..I always thought it was an "accepted" (whatever that means) way of potty learning.
I will be watching to make sure they don't say anything to Dd.
It's definately an easy way to keep her going with the potty though...it's been almost a month now!

Thanks again...
Jen

[Greaseball]

I think using the term victim in this instance is excessive and demeaning to those that really have been victimized.

Who gets to decide who was victimized? I have had my skirt lifted numerous times as an adult and as a child, and believe me, I was a victim each time because the event traumatized me. It was significant for me. (And no, it wasn't my responsibility to wear shorts under my skirt, it was the responsibility of the males to not touch me in the first place.)

Don't ever tell me I haven't "really" been victimized just because my experience isn't exactly like yours or anyone else's. Although I've got some of those, too...

[coleslaw]

I just wanted to add my $0.02 FWIW. I believe in instincts. If you feel something was going on, whether you could pinpoint why or not, then most likely it was. It doesn't matter if the boy has a "history" or not. There's always a starting point for everyone. I would definitely be more cautious around this boy.

Also, I would make this a learning experience for your dd. She may be little, but I would have tried to assess how she felt and given her advice on how to handle the situation herself. I don't know where she is on verbal skills, but I am sure she understands what you tell her. Something age-appropriate, of course.

But I don't beleive you did anything wrong. That boy need to learn boundaries and respect for others. I hope he gets that.

[Arduinna]

"Don't ever tell me I haven't "really" been victimized just because my experience isn't exactly like yours or anyone else's. Although I've got some of those, too..."

Greaseball, I'm sorry that you seem to be freaking out about this. But, I was citing something that happened at my school. Presumeably you weren't there?? And you didn't cite your own expereince when you first brought up blaming the victim, you cited mine in quotes in fact. So, why did you assume that I could have said anything about you or your experience when both of us were citing and and quoting mine??

If you feel you were victumized by having your skirt flipped up that is your choice, but don't don't tell me I was saying you weren't when my post was in reference to MY experience not yours.

[veganmamma]

(And no, it wasn't my responsibility to wear shorts under my skirt, it was the responsibility of the males to not touch me in the first place.)

ITA! This line of thinking goes on to "She wore a red dress so she was 'asking for it." While I agree it is good preventative advice to wear shorts under one's skirt if this is happening, just in case, even if I were wearing shorts under my skirt I would feel violated if someone flipped it up. Women have been working for 1000s of years to creat boundaries for their own bodies and obviously we're still not there yet.

And I have to say once more that a 2 year old running around nekkid or just w/out a diaper is normal and acceptable behavior- I know I'm not getting an argument from anyone on that. It is the responsibility of parents to teach their boys and children in general to respect other people's boundaries. This kid's parents should've taught him better.

I thnk you would do well to keep him away from your daughter, even though you may not want to make a big stink about it, kwim?

Lauren

[Greaseball]

If that were going on at my dd's school, no matter how old she was, I would expect the school to do something about it and to discipline all boys who took part in it, even if it was "everyone." School officials have an obligation to their students. I don't think the adults should just say "Well, that's just what kids this age do" if the girls don't like it. Even if someone doesn't want to call it sexual harassment, it is harassment of some kind if the girls don't want it but can't make it stop.

I remember my mom telling me to wear those culottes that look like a skirt but are really shorts "To really pull one over on the boys when 'Friday-flip-up-day' comes!" I don't think that really solves anything. Even if a girl wears shorts, it's still harassment. I don't see why anyone has to have their body or clothing grabbed by anyone else.

I know a 45-year-old woman who was raped by a 14-year-old boy. (Sometimes kids are huge! My dh is 5'10"; in my middle school there was a 12-year-old boy who was 6'1".) Lots of kids do start young. When my mom was a teacher, an 8-year-old boy in her class was raping 3-year-olds. And in my experience working with sex offenders, I don't know a single one who started as an adult. Most started at age 10 or so, and there were adults who knew about the behavior but dismissed it as "boys will be boys."

[Peppermint]

I wanted to chime in again and say that (cause I didn't mention it before) I think it is totally accpetable for babes to be naked, and diaperless, you did nothing wrong. It is completely questionable as to wether the boy was doing something devious, or just curious. Either way, it sounds like you know what to do, keep a close eye on the boy, and let your dd have at the potty training the way she has been. You're a good mama!

[wombat]

I agree with Greaseball - most sex offenders start early, often around puberty. I wouldn't call them predators then in the sense we call adult offenders predators. But doesn't matter what we call them, young sex offenders are still capable of doing a lot of damage.

Re provocative clothing - the idea that child sex offenders are attracted to children in SEXY clothes. I think it's the opposite. Paedophiles are attracted to CHILDREN, they like to them to look like children! I knew one paedophile who used to salivate at the sight of little Muslim girls in headscarves walking past his house to go to school. IT'S NOT ABOUT 'SEXY' CLOTHING. Paedophiles have the same range and variation in what THEY find sexually attractive as normal people do - in fact I think they're quite 'normal' except for the fact that their sexual preference is directed at children. In my experience, they target the vulnerable child and are opportunistic.

This incident of the boy looking up the girls dress, on its own, is IMO quite harmless. Add some suspicion of other inappropriate behaviour and the age differential here and little red warning signals start to pop up to monitor the situation. Just keeping an eye on this boy is enough I think.

It's hard to keep a balance between fobbing things off as nothing and jumping to conclusions. I always think that what we see and hear is the tip of the iceberg with real sex offenders. When I worked with CPS, I used to take innocuous sounding reports, often from neighbours and school teachers about 'inappropriate' sexual behaviors. They would sound really benign and then as part of an investigation, I'd have to review our files and talk to the ped, the family, the child and whoever else was involved and SOMETIMES a benign behaviour turned into a horrible case when you had all the information before you. Often it was nothing.

But WHAT IF that person had never reported the seemingly innocuous behaviour to start with??

[eilonwy]

Originally posted by wombat

This incident of the boy looking up the girls dress, on its own, is IMO quite harmless. Add some suspicion of other inappropriate behaviour and the age differential here and little red warning signals start to pop up to monitor the situation. Just keeping an eye on this boy is enough I think.

ITA! Very well stated, wombat.