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Pulsatilla vs. RRL tea  

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 
I'm just beginning studying up on all of this. I'm fascinated by how they work.

One of my twins is breech, so I've begun a pulsatilla regimen (it didn't work yesterday : ). I was going to start taking RRL tea today.

Then I started thinking: Pulsatilla works by relaxing the uterus so the baby will be able to flip over. RRL works by toning the uterus.

So, do they contradict each other then? Or am I getting this all wrong?
post #2 of 10
No, they can work together. Though I have seen head down babies turn breech with Pulsatilla, too.

I think it couldn't hurt - but is it Baby A or Baby B that is breech? Would you be ok with Baby B being breech?
post #3 of 10
Thread Starter 
Baby B is breech, but her butt is way closer to being engaged than Baby A. And B is heavier which supposedly means more likely to engage. I'm not happy that B is basically blocking A's way.

We're still planning on a UC if B is breech, but I know I have time and that they can turn in labor. Figured it wouldn't hurt to try while they have more wiggle room. Just wanted make sure what I'm trying to do turn one doesn't get contradicted by the RRL. I waited long enough to start the RRL tea as it is!
post #4 of 10
Hmmm, Pam, I have been told the opposite (by two separate and knowledgable MWs) - that someone taking Pulsatilla should put the RRL tea on hold until done with the Pulsatilla. : Can you tell us how they work together so they aren't cancelling each other out? I want to give my clients good information and am always open to learning!

Good luck with your twins positions, MamaRabbit!

Sweetpea
post #5 of 10
Well here's the thing: RRL is not a uterine contractant. It's a tonic, which means there are benefits for women who are experiencing extra strong BH contx, too. High levels of calcium helps to smooth out the uterine muscle and the toning part of RRL means that it works BOTH ways. It's often thought of as a "contractant", but we tend to forget that the uterus is a muscle made up of fibers running various ways.

Pulsatilla is a mystery. Some assume that it "relaxes" the muscle fibers, but this isn't necessarily true. The uterus contracts from the minute the baby implants...it has to in order to grow. I am not sure if it's really understood completely how Pulsatilla helps turn breech babies - I've heard it explained as simply as "it relaxes the uterus so the baby turns", but some homeopaths have disputed this simple explanation.

It's like most things in birth when dealing with natural remedies and supplements - we seem to simplify the action of both the body and the remedy, not really accounting for the complexity of both. I've never heard anyone recommend not taking RRL while trying different methods to turn breech babies. Surely a toned uterus can only help assist a baby to turn, right?

I suppose it's all a matter of opinion at this point, and not necessarily "fact" (just because we're not really sure how on earth Pulsatilla works completely). I'd say go with your gut and do what you feel is best. Surely if the Pulsatilla doesn't do the trick the first time, try omitting the RRL and see if that works when you do the Pulsatilla again.
post #6 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaRabbit View Post
...Then I started thinking: Pulsatilla works by relaxing the uterus so the baby will be able to flip over. RRL works by toning the uterus.

So, do they contradict each other then? Or am I getting this all wrong?
For one thing Pulsatilla doesn't work by relaxing the uterus. With all the strong vital forces of pregancy swirling around, women often get out of balance and an out-of-balance Pulsatilla state is often where they end up. A dose of homeopathic Pulsatilla will direct these women's vital forces more effectively so they can return to homeostatis.

If a woman with a breech baby needs Pulsatilla, often a dose will restore her to balance and her balanced body will be able to turn the baby on its own. The Pulsatilla does not work on the uterus specifically and does not turn babies. That being said as Pulsatilla is one of the remedies most commonly needed during pregnancy, more babies have turned vertex after a dose of Pulsatilla than any other remedy.

A pregnant woman in a Pulsatilla state loves company and will want lots of strokes and affection. She'll feel better for moving slowly than sitting still or for vigorous activity. She'll feel bogged down and thick headed in a closed up stuffy room and will perk up when you open a window or when she steps outside. Gently swaying on a porch swing, snuggling and chatting with a loved one would just rock a Pulsatilla woman's world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweeetpea View Post
Hmmm, Pam, I have been told the opposite (by two separate and knowledgable MWs) - that someone taking Pulsatilla should put the RRL tea on hold until done with the Pulsatilla. : Can you tell us how they work together so they aren't cancelling each other out? I want to give my clients good information and am always open to learning!
Well it's my turn to duck now. As a homeopath I think MWs know far more about midwifery than they do about homeopathy. : That being said Sandra Perko is a homeopath who has taught many midwives homeopathy and learned much midwifery from MWs. I think her book Homeopathy for the Modern Pregnant Woman and Her Infant is the best book bridging the two fields. It's not written by a homeopath (like Miranda Castro) that makes false assumptions about well pregnant women and well infant care or written by a midwife (too many to mention) that give misleading, unhelpful, or dangerous advise about homeopathy.

Certain homeopathic remedies are depotentized (the bottle shot) by exposure to certain substances or energy fields. There are many warnings about this but IME the remedies made according to HPUS (homeopathic pharmecopeia of the U.S) standards are far more stable than folks give them credit for. Those are the only kind that are legal to sell in the U.S. The remedies prepared by radionic machines are far less stable and can become completely worthless after two passes through airport x-ray machines.

Remedies can also be antidoted once inside the body. Different remedies are suseptible to different substances. The most common antidotes are suppressive or very aromatic. Not only is RRL neither of these, it's not listed as an antidote for Pulsatilla. Coffee can antidote Pulsatilla as can six homeopathic remedies. Coffee won't mess you up if you take Pulsatilla, it can just stop the remedy's action so you'll need to wait a while and take another dose. RRL will not impact Pulsatilla. That being said some homeopaths, not aware that RRL is a tonic rather than medicinal herb, would prefer women not take it during treatment with Pulsatilla as not to cloud their view of the remedy's action. Being familiar with both I'd be perfectly comfortable with a woman doing both treatments concurrently.

~BV
post #7 of 10
Thread Starter 
BV: When I said Pulsatilla relaxes the uterus, I took that directly from the Midwifery Today Winter 2006 issue. Very interesting! (oh, and my Pulsatilla probably went through the xray at the airport at least once... maybe it's just not gonna work at all anyway!)

On RRL tea. I went to a LLL type meeting here and an Aussie midwife was giving a talk (very rare and lucky for me!). She spent about 5min talking about RRL and said that if a woman is at risk for PTL, she shouldn't start RRL until around the 3rd trimester or just do one cup at a time to see how it goes... if notice more contrax, stop; if no extra contrax, can up the dosage.
post #8 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaRabbit View Post
BV: When I said Pulsatilla relaxes the uterus, I took that directly from the Midwifery Today Winter 2006 issue. Very interesting!
Well, there you go. Another wrong "fact" about homeopathy stated by a non-homeopathic professional. Truth be told there are enough people running around saying and doing stupid things while marketing themselves as "homeopaths" because they attended some weekend seminar, that we have too many <ahem> homeopaths spewing idiocy that it's enough to make a girl want to push for state licensing.

Actually, to be more generous toward an article I never read, Pulsatilla *can* relax the uterus of a woman in a Pulsatilla state *if* part of the problem is that the uterus is overly or disfunctionally tensed. It could also be part of an osteopathic or chiropractic imbalance that cause strain on the broad ligaments which causes and overly taut or unevenly toned uterus. The remedy or adjustments, none of which directly address uterine tone, could relieve the underlying issue so the uterus is allowed to once again function effectively.

Quote:
(oh, and my Pulsatilla probably went through the xray at the airport at least once... maybe it's just not gonna work at all anyway!)
If you bought your remedy commercially from the US, Europe, Australia, or India, it should be just fine. (Remedies prepared commericially in other countries might be fine too; I just don't know their production standards.) The bottles sold in the US and Europe are prepared mechanically and are very resilient. The bottles I've bought from India are hand made according to HPUS standards, just as resilient as mechanically machine made remedies, and work fine after x-ray exposure. While my European made remedies haven't been x-rayed (purchased before 9/11) but know homeopaths who've had some remedies x-rayed over 20 times traveling through airports and still have them work beautifully. I also know of remedies "grafted" from remedies prepared according to these standards that travel fine through e-ray machines. "Grafted" remedies aren't made according to HPUS standards and so cannot be sold legally in the U.S. IME they work the same none the less.

The only remedies I've know to get depotentized easily are those made "electronically" on radionic machines. Often you'll see them advertised on eBay saying "Make lots of money making homeopathics at home." In those one puts an HPUS remedy in one cup, a blank remedy in another, and then sets the machine to "transfer" or "imprint" the electro-magnetic signature of the original remedy to the blank remedy. It's not legal to sell remedies so prepared in the U.S. Another way they prepare the remedies is to analzye the remedies' vibrational frequencies into a mathematical formula, enter the code into the radionics machine, and have the machine imbue the blank remedy with the healing power associated with the remedy.

I'm not trying to offend any radionics users. My beef with using it for homeopathic remedies is that 1) remedies so made haven't been tested in homeopathic provings, 2) objectively they "wear out" far more quickly than those prepared according to traditional homeopathic/HPUS standards, and 3) as people seem to need higher potencies of radionically prepared remedies, I question what other subtle differences we're not noticing and what impact this could have in clinical settings.

Quote:
On RRL tea. I went to a LLL type meeting here and an Aussie midwife was giving a talk (very rare and lucky for me!). She spent about 5min talking about RRL and said that if a woman is at risk for PTL, she shouldn't start RRL until around the 3rd trimester or just do one cup at a time to see how it goes... if notice more contrax, stop; if no extra contrax, can up the dosage.
It's know in homeopathic circles that the substance that can cause a disease can cure it. That's how we "prove" the action of a remedy. We use the remedy to purposefully induce a mild disease state in health individuals and then use that remedy in clinic when patients present with the same symptoms.

I've talked to a homeopathic MW who had repeatedly notice RRL *inducing* uterine atony and contributing to hemorrhaging in patients particularly susceptible to the herb. As she had no way of predicting who was particularly sensitive to the remedy beforehand, she'd only recommend it to women who seemed to need a uterine tonic.

Just so this doesn't seem so weird it happens with other herb as well. Digestive spices and cause digestive upset in sufficient quantity and chamomile, peppermint, and fresh camile tea will cause wakefulness and stomach upset when taken in sufficient quantity or in small quantities frequently in particularly sensitive individuals.

~BV, who's quick to hijack a thread with homeopathy rambles :
post #9 of 10
Thread Starter 
BV, no problem

I was just going to PM my question to one of the midwives here but figured it would make for a great discussion too!
post #10 of 10
It seems a problem is trying to put alternative remedies which are used in a wholistic paradigm into the simplistic and reductionistic scientific model. As an herbalist I am never treating a "not toned or over relaxed uterus". I am helping a woman who has______ going on with her physically, emotionally, spiritually. A plant remedy or homeopathic may address all these levels. A baby may be breech for a number of reasons and each mother/baby is different. Of course there are patterns that occur in many mother/babies that can be addressed with a certain remedy. But we are still not treating "breech". A subtle but important paradigm shift that makes all the difference when trying to understand alternative medicine.
As for your specific situation. I am not sure I would be doing anything but nourishing yourself really well in every aspect. Vertex/breech is a normal way for twins to be. You might talk to your babies and also listen to them. They may know what they are doing to be in the best positions to be born.
I consider RRL tea to be nourishing and do not think it causes miscarriage. People are quick to blame herbs for things when they don't even have a good understanding of how they work or only understand it from the reductionist view.
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