*Our Nov. '05 independent toddlers*--July thread! - Page 3

[flapjack]

Teresa, we have a food co-op here Move to England, you know you want to...

[*Amy*]

Originally Posted by HoneyTree

(Do y'all have a food co-op there? That's currently my main criteria for moving...)

No - can you believe it? There are all kinds of co-op stores, but no buying club. Which, I'm not sure what you meant. If you meant a co-op store, then YES! Move on out!

[MelW]

Okay everyone, help me prove or disprove my new theory. Very verbal or early verbal baby/toddler equals crummy sleeper (or vice versa). DH and I were both really early talkers and terrible sleepers. He didn't sleep through the night until he was three :

Food co-ops here, too, Teresa. And I co-ordinate the community gardens for student family housing, so know lots of gardening geeks Then again, maybe we should just all find a place to move to together and start a little MDC Nov 05 commune

[spughy]

Originally Posted by MelW

Okay everyone, help me prove or disprove my new theory. Very verbal or early verbal baby/toddler equals crummy sleeper (or vice versa). DH and I were both really early talkers and terrible sleepers. He didn't sleep through the night until he was three :

Sorry, Rowan's sleeping pretty well now and she's pretty verbal too - not to the extent of Neela or Brynn, but still well ahead of average for this age. And I talked REALLY early and well, but slept through the night from six months on, according to my mom. My DH on the other hand was not such an early talker and was a rotten sleeper.

However, I think GENERALLY your statement is probably quite true. I bet the early talkers have a lot more going on in their little heads and part of why they wake up so much is that they just HAVE to tell mama about something...

[*Amy*]

Originally Posted by spughy

I bet the early talkers have a lot more going on in their little heads and part of why they wake up so much is that they just HAVE to tell mama about something...

Yeah, like "I want mama-milk, Mama!"

I keep forgetting to tell y'all some funny stuff that she's doing. One, if she is really upset about something (usually not being picked up when she wants to be) and she's crying, I will ask her to use her big girl voice. Her response? She whispers.

Oh, and she told her first joke a week or so ago - we were in the car, and she said, "I got my feet wet!" and I said, "You did? Where did that happen?" The punchline: "In a watermelon!" What a jokester! Of course, she's re-told that joke about 30 times now. It's pretty adorable.

Oh and she's really into comparing sizes of things, but there are only two classifications: "The really big HUUUUGE [thing]" (said in a loud, low voice), or "The tiny tiny tiny [thing]" (said in a little mouse voice, with her nose crinkled). Or if she sees something that is relatively small, it's "the little bit tiny one," (which I think is her version of "a little tiny bit").

She does so many things that I try to remember to share, but never seem to keep ahold of them all.

[spiritmomma]

Can I just mention quickly here how much I love Brynn?
She's really supremely cute.

Today Isa and I went on a hike. It was so good to be out exploring... she rode in the Ergo for most of the hike (and man, am I out of shape!) but walked for some of it too. I just can not say enough good things about Holliday Park. If you're ever in Indy, go play at Holliday park. They have the best playgrounds ever and some decent nature trails too.

I had a great day. Hope everyone is doing well.
Ciao

[MelW]

Originally Posted by *Amy*

Oh and she's really into comparing sizes of things, but there are only two classifications: "The really big HUUUUGE [thing]" (said in a loud, low voice), or "The tiny tiny tiny [thing]" (said in a little mouse voice, with her nose crinkled). Or if she sees something that is relatively small, it's "the little bit tiny one," (which I think is her version of "a little tiny bit").

We had a great librarian at storytime who taught the kids to sing teeny tiny and BIG versions of songs, with smaller actions and higher-pitched voices for the teeny versions. Guess what we have to do all of the time now?

And everything here is "very". Very big, very hot, very funny, VERY LOUD!

[Queen of Cups]

Originally Posted by spughy

However, I think GENERALLY your statement is probably quite true. I bet the early talkers have a lot more going on in their little heads and part of why they wake up so much is that they just HAVE to tell mama about something...

I don't know, Killy had whole language speech delays and now struggles with articulation issues, and he's a rotten sleeper. He's three years old and he just started sleeping through the night regularly. I don't think its necessarily true that kids who don't talk early have LESS going on in their heads. : (ya'll will have to excuse me, I seem to be a bit testy and over-sensitive on the topic of speech. my kids are both quite bright, but Killy had such issues with speech that its really a sensitive topic for me)


It must have been a day for hiking! I took an hour long hike with Ellie in the Ergo this evening, while DH and Killy did some shopping. It was wonderful - there were wild berries all along the trail and I picked handful after handful for Ellie. She LOVES berries, as soon as she gets out of our car everytime we get home from somewhere she runs straight to our berry bushes at home and picks all the ripe berries she can find.

[spughy]

Originally Posted by Queen of Cups

I don't think its necessarily true that kids who don't talk early have LESS going on in their heads. :

I'm sorry, QofC, that was a pretty thoughtless way of phrasing what I meant. I just had this mental picture of all these exciting new words whirling around in the little heads and bubbling out through their mouths... I didn't really mean that non-verbal kids had less going on in their heads, just not so much that needed an outlet. I'm really sorry. I was typing in a hurry and my brain condensed some stuff that it shouldn't have.

Anyway, if it makes anyone feel better, Rowan's sleeping better has coincided with much MORE difficulty going to sleep in the first place. She used to conk out happily nursing for about 15 minutes after a book and a bottle of milk. Now, we read several books, then we have to go to the bedroom and "make a nest" - code for flopping around on the bed for 10 or 15 minutes - followed by protestations, calls for Daddy, demands for Daddy to sing (with almost every song vetoed with an emphatic "NO" after just a few notes), followed by some whining when she's told to settle down, followed by requests for "more boobies", during which she MIGHT nod off, but more likely followed by more of "make nest" followed by more whining, insistence on lying on Mummy, flopping off, finally not resisting being held in one place, babbling for 15 minutes or so (some of it amusing enough that mummy and daddy have a hard time not laughing, e.g. panting followed by "I be dog. I be big dog.") and then finally either dropping off to sleep or throwing a minor fit for more boobies and THEN dropping off to sleep. It takes more than an hour.

And yet, when it's naptime around noon, she's ASKING for the nap and out in 10 minutes. And yeah, I've tried just waiting until she's actually tired at night... doesn't work. It still takes an hour for her to wind down, and then she's shortchanged at least an hour's sleep for the night and it messes her up for the next day.

I comfort myself with the thought that she won't be doing this when she's 13. Then I try really hard not to think about how long she COULD do this for.

[*Amy*]

Originally Posted by spiritmomma

Can I just mention quickly here how much I love Brynn?
She's really supremely cute.

Awww. : Thanks Mama.

Originally Posted by spughy

I comfort myself with the thought that she won't be doing this when she's 13. Then I try really hard not to think about how long she COULD do this for.

Yeah, I guess I can say that about Brynn's still ridiculously-frequent night wakings too. But then when I read QoC say that Killy didn't start sleeping soundly til around 3...well.... :

But Spughy made me realize they all have different styles of getting to sleep and staying to sleep - our bedtime routine has gotten *so* easy (and also very enjoyable): after a bath, we go to her room, read a book or two, and then she nurses for a few moments while I tell her everything I can remember about our day. Then I tell her all the things I'm thankful for, and then ask her what she's thankful for (last night it was the castle at the library and the little tiny tiny dog we saw when we went for our evening walk ), and then she rests her head on my chest for a few moments while I sing or tell her a story, and then she kind of starts to crawl out of the rocking chair when she's ready to get in the crib. And then she goes to sleep!! It's really quite nice.

The rest of the night, however? Not so much. It's just so frustrating that we had made so much progress, and that we're back to this state of affairs once again. I don't even go for my morning walks half the time anymore because I'm too damn tired, and it affects our whole day when I don't get that morning time and exercise. Jason told me the other day that he's noticed that I've seemed much less balanced and more emotional the past week or so, and that kind of bums me out.

So this morning I told him, I think we're going to have to give her sleeping pills tonight. Or something. Seriously, what the hell are we going to do??!

Speaking of Ergos, I bought one of the TP, and I'm hoping to get it next week. I can't wait!

[flapjack]

Amy. Here's hoping it gets better soon. Have you considered posting in parenting the gifted child forum for ideas? One thing I will say, though, is that I don't think bathtime is relaxing for a toddler and all of my kids have always had morning baths instead- and with her talking over and evaluating her day, there's a lot going on. Just a thought...
FWIW, I don't think there's a link between sleeplessness between the ages of 1-2 and IQ: I do think there's a correlation between early/ severe separation anxiety and verbal and empathic ability later in childhood.
QofC, I know exactly what you mean: it really bugs me when I hear people say that verbal/ literate = intelligent too, because it completely overlooks the fact that girls and boys are hardwired differently, nurtured differently and that there are many kinds of intelligence :. One of the most beautiful, talented and creative little boys I know has his brilliance overlooked because his sister was an early talker and reader, and it bugs me

[*Amy*]

Originally Posted by flapjack

Amy. Here's hoping it gets better soon. Have you considered posting in parenting the gifted child forum for ideas?

No...hadn't thought about that yet. I tip-toed into that forum a couple of weeks ago and wasn't sure about it. A friend of mine recommended a book called Living with the Active-Alert Child, but our library system doesn't have it (our library here sucks, from what I've been able to tell), so I'm interested in reading about that. I was also thinking maybe about going to Night Time Parenting to talk about it over there. Again. Sigh.

Originally Posted by flapjack

One thing I will say, though, is that I don't think bathtime is relaxing for a toddler and all of my kids have always had morning baths instead- and with her talking over and evaluating her day, there's a lot going on. Just a thought...

I think the bath thing used to be more the case when she was younger; it really just kind of spazzed her out, so we switched to morning baths too. Brynn used to be like Rowan in that it took her a *long* time to wind down at night, but she's gotten a lot more efficient lately.

Now, I think the evening baths do calm her because she's contained in a small area, the water is warm, it's quiet, etc. She has to be relatively still. I hear what you're saying about talking about the day...but so far I think it's working for us. It really makes her settle down and listen (she's usually so wiggly, and wants to hop down every couple of minutes to "play this game!"), and then like I said, she just goes right to sleep.

I think it really is what the No Cry Sleep Solution says, which is that she isn't soothing herself back to sleep when she wakes up. There's also the possibility that she's too hot or cold (we can't keep the damn temperature in this house constant no matter what we do!!), or that her crib is too narrow for how much rolling around she does. I dunno.

The past couple of nights, though, I have not even picked her up out of her crib if it's been less than 2-3 hours since her last waking. She was mad the first time, but the second time she just flopped right back down and went to sleep within seconds.

I guess I would just think, "This crib thing isn't working" if it weren't for the fact that it went so well for the first month! But that's kind of how everything goes with her in the sleep department; we see *major* improvement for a while (like when she started sleeping in the pack and play way back when), and then gradually things just back-slide to how they always are.

Sorry - didn't mean to hijack the whole thread about this *once again.* God.

[spughy]

Originally Posted by flapjack

it really bugs me when I hear people say that verbal/ literate = intelligent too, because it completely overlooks the fact that girls and boys are hardwired differently, nurtured differently and that there are many kinds of intelligence :.

Again, SORRY SORRY SORRY I ever said anything implying that! I really ought to know better. My own DH was a late talker and grew up to be a freakin' GENIUS. I'm sure he was a genius as a toddler too. A cranky genius, but genius nonetheless.

Re: the nighttime bath - I agree that it's more of a stimulant than anything, although Rowan doesn't get one every night and it makes NO difference at all to how easily she goes to sleep. But at the moment morning baths are impossible because we're all just trying to get out of the house in the AM. Once I'm done work I'm going to switch to morning baths too. Oh, and BTW - remember Rowan's bath aversion a while back? Gone. She gets in the bath happily and drinks half of it out of her tupperware buckets. BUT her thing now is to run out wearing her towel after the bath, rip the towel off, and burst into tears. Nothing but Toopy and Binoo and cuddles helps then. Weird kid. (Side note: I admit, I am now a convert to the usefulness of TV with toddlers. I'm glad she only really likes that one show, and equally glad it is on every night at 8:30. Unfortunately there's a lot of "Binoo on?" that happens at other times too

[Queen of Cups]

Originally Posted by *Amy*

Sorry - didn't mean to hijack the whole thread about this *once again.* God.

Amy, coming off of three years of multiple night wakings, I just want to say that it is very consuming. My best advice: don't get pregnant anytime soon! That makes it a whole lot tougher... Is your hubby still traveling a lot? If he's at home now, let him deal with it for a week or two. That will give you a break, and it may improve things. When I would try to comfort Killy at night it would seriously get him more riled up (even after he was night-weaned), and when David would go in there he was more likely to go back to sleep. Ellie's fine with me comforting her back to sleep and doesn't even ask to nurse anymore. She still wakes once a night sometimes, but usually I just lay down next to her and she falls back asleep within a couple minutes (I love having her in a full size futon so I can just lay down and not reach over a crib rail). Earlier this week we had such a major breakthrough with Killy. I was in bed (David was still working) and I heard Killy get out of bed, go into the family room and then go back to bed. I went into his room and he told me he went to get his cup because he was thirsty and then said goodnight. OMG! I never thought he'd ever wake up, take care of whatever he needed to, then go back to bed on his own! It only took 38 months!!!

[s_kristina]

Sleep is fun. I never complain about Joseph's 1-3 wakings night because I know how bad it can be and I think this is easy! I never had a night waking child in a crib though so that might be a bit rougher. It's always just been if they aren't in our bed they get up and bring themselves to our bed if they need us in the night. At age 5.5 that is very rare occurence with Annette. She on rare occasions will put up a little fuss if something looks interesting on the tv, but usually she is straight off to bed and falls asleep quickly and easily. It was insanely rough early on as it was mostly me and her for her first 2.5 years, but if the pay off is a child that is this easy about sleep I'll take the rough 2-3 years rather then 18 years of fighting about bed times. I also napped every time she did, I also nap most days with Joseph. Being able to get that extra little bit of sleep makes the rest of my day so much better! It also lets me stay up a little bit later then the kids so I can get some time to read or paint my toe nails.

[flapjack]

Jen, I was actually speculating on whether Amy were already in the pudding club... but yeah, Amy. Seriously, DO NOT take chances on contraception at the moment.
Spughy, there are moms of boys and moms of girls. Despite one of my kids having an absent penis, I'm always going to be the person who bangs on about how the school system discriminates against boys because they can't sit still for 5 minutes together because that hits my family really really hard. It's just who I am- don't stress, huh? Society as a whole assumes that language = intelligence, which is a pretty sexist generalisation when you think about it. (i've never heard Amy talk about Brynn's problem-solving skills, though, for instance...)

[*Amy*]

Originally Posted by flapjack

Society as a whole assumes that language = intelligence, which is a pretty sexist generalisation when you think about it. (i've never heard Amy talk about Brynn's problem-solving skills, though, for instance...)

I was actually thinking about that in one of the earlier posts today. I think language is just so easy to observe and quantify (compared to say, problem-solving skills, high-lever reasoning, spatial skills, mathematical intelligence, and other things that are not quite as obvious) that language something people really focus in on. I agree that it's not really fair to say that early talker = high intelligence.

As for the contraception issue - no worries there; I have an IUD...and all of those possible-someday-babylust feelings are totally gone. Funny how they so totally correlated to how much sleep and exercise I was/am (or am not) getting.

I just noticed today that Brynn is now sprouting her bottom canines, in addition to still working slowly on her top first molars. So, honestly, that has to be related. Doesn't it? I'm just going to believe that for now!

[barcelona]

Amy, I definitely think the teeth could be a part of it.
Finley had been sleeping beautifully, almost through the night every night, but lately he has been nursing a couple of times a night again. I'm not sure what is going on, but from all the reading and MDC lurking I've done, it seems like it's pretty normal for their sleep to be on and off for these first two years, what with all the developmental changes going on, and teeth coming in.
I know it doesn't make it any easier, and I'm so sorry you're having a hard time. I hope you're able to come up with a solution and/or come to place of peace (and rest, the hard part, I know!) with it.

I should be sleeping with Finley now, during his nap, but I'm not too terribly tired, and just want to have some grown up time now.

Helen, are you feeling better? I hope so!

s_kristina, so glad that the 2-3 years of hard sleep paid off with Annette. It gives me hope! Not that Finley's sleep is horrible at all, but it is less than perfect, and I hope our approach will give him a peaceful relationship with sleep as he gets older.

Spughy, your description of Rowan's going to sleep ritual had me laughing so! She sounds adorable, and Finley definitely has nights like that. Sometimes he's asleep in five minutes, and other times, it takes an hour. Usually, it is somewhere in between, around 15-20 minutes. Sometimes, though, I'll start singing a song that he doesn't want me to sing, and while he nurses, he shakes his head NO, very emphatically. So funny.
oh, and Spughy, after you shared eating cheesecake last week, I was inspired to indulge in some myself...I thought it sounded so good. So when DH and I had our "coffee date" while MIL was in town, we split a slice of cheesecake. YUM.

Oh, and Finley doesn't really have a word for nursing. Mostly, he signs "bed", because we almost always go to bed to nurse. And he also signs "milk". If he says anything, it's "Mooommmmm".

So...to go to my pregnancy paranoia, what do you think the chances of me getting pregnant are with this story: (hope it's not TMI)

stopped minipill, so as to start FAM.
had discussion with DH about how we are not safe yet to have unprotected sex until I start my cycle again, as per FAM's instructions.
we agreed we'd use condoms most of the time, and if it seemed I was definitely not fertile, with no CM, etc, maybe just use withdrawal, and take that risk.
on the particular day, I told DH I thought I was fertile, and we needed to be careful.
that night, we started to DTD, without a condom (don't have them in the house yet). I assumed he'd withdraw, and we'd take that risk. I'm always reminding him to withdraw, if we feel worried/if i missed a pill or two (that's how I got pregnant the first time, missing pills), and he hates it, so I thought this time, I'd refrain from the obvious, since we'd had the discussion literally a few hours earlier.
He didn't withdraw.
I had fertile CM and my cervix was in a fertile position (soft, high, open).

I haven't had AF yet, as you know, and Finley does still nurse quite frequently.

How worried should I be??

I'm 7 DPO now, and don't really have any symptoms, except I do have some tightness/cramping down there, but it could be digestive issues/my head/or hyper-awareness.

I know this doesn't really belong in this thread, but I just thought I'd see what you all think...

I would be both thrilled and scared if I am pregnant, and I'd be both relieved and a tiny bit sad if I am not. I have been having babylust lately (especially as I've been getting more sleep and Dh and I have had some alone time...similar to your comment, Amy!), so I definitely have mixed feelings. Would love it, but it isn't how I envisioned our life going right now, and was looking forward to more of a spacing.

No need to dwell on this as a thread, just wanting to put it out there


Finley is such a joy. We've been having a wonderful time together, and he had a major breakthrough yesterday: he got into the pool!!! (The baby blow-up kind). We've been playing in it almost daily, though he's been too scared to get in. I have occassionally tried putting his feet in, when he thinks he wants to go in, but he has screamed and cried. Yesterday, I asked if he wanted to go in the pool, and he said "yeah", as he has often done before. But this time, he didn't cry when I put him in, and instead, we splashed and played and had a wonderful time! I am beyond thrilled. It seemed like he would never get over his fear of water.

Today, I tried having him play a bit in the bath with the water, as a playtime only, but he wasn't too keen on getting in the bath, just stayed outside of it, pouring cups of water in the bath. It's progress and hope though!

His constipation also seems to be getting a bit better. The only thing I've really done differently with his diet is reintroduce yogurt, one of his favorites. Go figure.

He loves playing peekaboo, buckling his high chair straps (over and over and over again, very focused, very serious), stirring water and playing with water, listening and singing to the Beatles (especially Hey Jude, She Loves you, Penny Lane, and Yellow Submarine), and reading books.

Hope everyone is looking forward to a great weekend.

My SIL is coming over, because her relationship is falling apart, and she is kinda falling apart. Talk about major drama. Don't know if I've told you all about him, but last week, he downed 15 of her percosets (sp?) that she had from her surgery (nice timing, guy...attempt suicide while your gf is on crutches, one week post-op). She called 911 and he's been in the psych hospital all week. He confessed to being a cleptomaniac and stealing a lot of things, including things from his job, (and he turned himself into the job) so he's obviously lost his job, and he has several other "secrets" she hasn't told us about, and also that he hasn't told her. He's the one that left his year old daughter back in Iowa to be with her. And cheated on his wife with her...and the divorce isn't final. What a mess!!!! It has been such a challenge for me and DH to know how to handle it. We are just trying to focus on supporting and loving her, and keeping our feelings about the guy, and her choice of guy, separate. So hard.

Anyway, thanks for reading my LONG and selfish post!

More soon, all you lovely mamas.
Have a delightful summer weekend.

[Kavita]

Originally Posted by *Amy*

She does so many things that I try to remember to share, but never seem to keep ahold of them all.

My favorite is last week we were having lunch and I look up and notice that Brynn, who is sitting the the booth across from me, is staring, totally transfixed, at my boobs, for like an extended period of time! And then turns to her mom and says in this hushed tone, Mama, there's milk in there!! like she was just having this epiphany! It was very hilarious!

[Kavita]

barcelona--ugh! sounds like quite a situation with your SIL. Hope she drops the guy and runs! (even though you can't say that, I can, lol!)

And I think that you have to remember that your chances of pregnancy are about 25% in any given cycle if you have unprotected sex while you're totally fertile. So it's not a given that you would be pregnant. But also not impossible. I know that when we were trying to prevent pregnancy, it felt like every time that we had sex we were convinced that we would get pregnant--then when we started TTC we did it like rabbits while I was ovulating and didn't get pregnant for a few months--and it was sort of funny to realize that we may not have needed to be that paranoid after all! (Of course, now we're back to paranoid! lol!)