*Our Nov. '05 independent toddlers*--July thread! - Page 4

[barcelona]

Kavita,
Thanks! That definitely helps the worried part of me. I'll know soon enough, and if I am...well, we'll be blessed and happy and do what we need to do.

As for Brynn...I cannot believe the things she says!!! She is TOO CUTE for words!

[*Amy*]

barcelona, I second what Kavita said. There's probably a small chance that you might be - but I was a little confused by your post. Have you begun ovulating again since Finley's birth? You seem to know where you are in your cycle, which leads me to believe you have had at least one period? But on first reading, I thought that you were saying that you haven't a period at all yet? I hear you on the not-quite-sure-how-you'd-feel. After I got over the feelings that I would be suicidal if I were to become pregnant (like until Brynn was about 1), I actually thought that I would be slightly happy if it happened by accident. But it can't, so that's fine. And hooray for the water-aversion-reduction! That is great! And the cheesecake - yum! I've had such a sweet-tooth the past few days!

Kavita, I had totally forgotten about the boob episode. That was really funny. She's been talking a blue streak today, but the funniest was when we were at a new friend's house today for playtime, and she came up to me and said (I kid you not): "Let's talk for a moment." This kid cracks me up.

[barcelona]

Sorry if that's confusing. I have not yet had my period, so I'm not 100% sure where I am in my cycle. But, since reading FAM, I've been keeping track of my CM and cervical positioning...and it seemed like I followed the patterns leading up to ovluation, then ovulating, and then passing it. I'm not temping, since I am still up at nights with Finley. From what I understand, I might well be attempting to ovulate, but not yet have enough estrogen to release an egg.

So, I'm sure this decreases my chances even more, and I'm being super overly paranoid. It's just that, when I got pregnant with Finley, it was like this...such a small shot, and it happened.

So, I'm probably fine. Still, I'll be testing so I can know something, esp. since I have no idea when AF would start.

[flapjack]

Barcelona, a few thoughts:
Firstly, if you had unprotected sex less than 48 hours before day Oh, then your body may have faked you into thinking that you're more fertile than you are: semen and ewcm can take a while to tell apart, and a lot of women find that semen will also move their cervixes higher and make them feel softer, but with a hard core in the centre.
Secondly, if you only noticed one day of fertile quality CM- creamy or egg-white- then the chances are that your body is still gearing up to ovulation. If you log on to FF, there's charts on there for women coming off the minipill. It is worth temping, though, it really is- as long as every night's sleep is trashed then you should get an accurate indication on a chart of when O occurs, it's just not going to look "pretty."
Kavita, that's cute

[MelW]

Originally Posted by Kavita

My favorite is last week we were having lunch and I look up and notice that Brynn, who is sitting the the booth across from me, is staring, totally transfixed, at my boobs, for like an extended period of time! And then turns to her mom and says in this hushed tone, Mama, there's milk in there!! like she was just having this epiphany! It was very hilarious!

Too funny! Neela is currently obsessed with who nurses. We have long periods of questioning about all of our friends and neighbours. Including one little girl who recently weaned at two years old but is much smaller than Neela. Neela keeps insisting that she nurses and gets upset if I say she doesn't. My little lactivist

As for the verbal=intelligent stereotype, we get it all the time. It's easier to know what is going on inside of a verbal toddler's head, but certainly no more or less in there! But we get constant comments about how smart and amazing Neela is. I think she is, but just in the prejudiced parent kind of way

[spiritmomma]

I think she is, but just in the prejudiced parent kind of way

Whenever someone comments on how smart Isa is (due to signing or talking or whatever) I always tell people that I think all children are this intelligent, but that she has a way of expressing it that is more tangible to most people. I agree that talkative doesn't mean smarter, but that verbal children are special because they help adults to remember that they think differently than culturally shaped adults. I LOVE hearing about things children have said.

[Phoenix_Rising]

Originally Posted by MamaFern

youi all dont have to flame me since im flaming myself enough.
sheesh. somtimes i wonder where my sanity is.

no flaming from me, mama! i kinda had one of those moments myself today when keagan bit me in the arse

Originally Posted by MelW

Okay everyone, help me prove or disprove my new theory. Very verbal or early verbal baby/toddler equals crummy sleeper (or vice versa). DH and I were both really early talkers and terrible sleepers. He didn't sleep through the night until he was three :

i'm gonna have to go with the disproving the theory here. keagan only has about 3 words he verbalizes at this point. . . and sleeps like crap

Originally Posted by *Amy*

So this morning I told him, I think we're going to have to give her sleeping pills tonight. Or something. Seriously, what the hell are we going to do??!

sorry, amy, i can't remember this has been suggested or not. . . have you tried hyland's formula called "calms forte for kids"?

Originally Posted by *Amy*

I just noticed today that Brynn is now sprouting her bottom canines, in addition to still working slowly on her top first molars. So, honestly, that has to be related. Doesn't it? I'm just going to believe that for now!

dunno. . . keagan has had all of his teeth now minus his two year molars for a few months and still sleeps like crap.

can you tell i'm tired? maybe i should go to sleep now since the little bean is asleep

[flapjack]

Amy, I was thinking about you and Brynn last night. If you're actually considering something that drastic, wouuld you think about starting with a session or two of cranial-sacral therapy (her birth was pretty traumatic for you, if I remember) and if that doesn't show results then maybe looking at something like classical kinesiology? I'm wondering if maybe this extreme teething and sleeplessness isn't actually Brynn's normal and if there's something else going on that is aggravating the teething and broken nights.

Susannah, I'm sorry for your poor bottom - how did he reach? I'm trying to figure out the logistics here and struggling desperately... here's hoping he sleeps soon too.

[MelW]

I know it's too late for this time, but for any NFPers who have "oopses" spermicide can be used afterwards (and even up to 24 hours afterwards) to reduce the chance of pregnancy. I know they offer it as an alternative to the morning after pill in some situations (and I hope I'm not opening major debate or UA violations here).

Susannah~ I want details of the bum biting, too

We had a bunch of 7/7/7 babies at work this evening. I'm tired and off to bed...

[*Amy*]

Originally Posted by flapjack

Amy, I was thinking about you and Brynn last night. If you're actually considering something that drastic, wouuld you think about starting with a session or two of cranial-sacral therapy (her birth was pretty traumatic for you, if I remember) and if that doesn't show results then maybe looking at something like classical kinesiology? I'm wondering if maybe this extreme teething and sleeplessness isn't actually Brynn's normal and if there's something else going on that is aggravating the teething and broken nights.

Can you explain more about this? I really don't understand CST very well, so I don't know the way in which it might help. You can PM if you like.

We had a nice day yesterday. We lounged a lot, and then went to look at a model log home (we're thinking about building one, maybe, or something even more sustainable), and then went to Kavita's for the *most delicious* indian meal ever. Kavita is an awesome cook, y'all.

Mel, I realized at like 10:30 last night that it was 7/7/7. Lucky babies!!

Susannah, I haven't tried Hyland's. DH is realllllllly wary of herbal remedies because they aren't regulated by the FDA, so we don't really use them.

Spiritmomma, I was thinking something along the lines of what you said in your post, about how all children are intelligten. My feeling is, all children *shine* in some way. For some kids, it's verbal aptitude; for others, it's physical mastery; for others, it's their awesome personalities. Jason and I have so much fun with Ella, for example, because she is SO giggly and cuddly (very unlike Brynn); she actually cuddles with me more than my own child does! Every child is just wonderful, I think.

[Kavita]

Originally Posted by *Amy*

Can you explain more about this? I really don't understand CST very well, so I don't know the way in which it might help. You can PM if you like.

We had a nice day yesterday. We lounged a lot, and then went to look at a model log home (we're thinking about building one, maybe, or something even more sustainable), and then went to Kavita's for the *most delicious* indian meal ever. Kavita is an awesome cook, y'all.

Mel, I realized at like 10:30 last night that it was 7/7/7. Lucky babies!!

Susannah, I haven't tried Hyland's. DH is realllllllly wary of herbal remedies because they aren't regulated by the FDA, so we don't really use them.

Spiritmomma, I was thinking something along the lines of what you said in your post, about how all children are intelligten. My feeling is, all children *shine* in some way. For some kids, it's verbal aptitude; for others, it's physical mastery; for others, it's their awesome personalities. Jason and I have so much fun with Ella, for example, because she is SO giggly and cuddly (very unlike Brynn); she actually cuddles with me more than my own child does! Every child is just wonderful, I think.

Homeopathics (ie Hylands) are not the same as herbal remedies, whereas herbs work through the actual constituents of the plants, homeopathics don't really contain much actual "ingredients"--they are so dilute that the remedy may not actually contain much at all molecularly of the substance, but they are supposed to work on an energetic level. (Sort of the "aura" or energy of the plant or substance, if you will.) Homeopathics are one of the things that I feel are very safe, and will either help or do nothing in a situation--it depends on having the right remedy for the "symptom picture". We've been giving Ella a lot of Chamomilla these days for teething related crankiness and irritability, and it really seems to help a lot.

Thanks for the compliment on my cooking, btw! : DH is actually a pretty good cook too, but yesterday I wouldn't let him in the kitchen--I was just like, just get the kid and the dogs out of my kitchen and let me cook by myself in peace!! I also like to clean as I go to the extent possible, because when things get all crazy and messy I can't think or work well, and it irritates me when I don't have a clean and clear work surface.

I agree about different intelligences in children. (well, in everybody really but we're focusing on the babies/kids.) One of the reasons I don't want to send Ella to a traditional school is that I think that the educational system focuses on a very narrow range of talents and abilities. Even mainstream early child education seems so reductionist, and about reading readiness and learning a set group of concepts (colors, numbers, letters, etc.) I think that takes all the fun and wonder out of learning right at the outset! That is what is so appealing to me about the theories that state that we don't really have to "teach" young children anything, just give them an enriching environment and appropriate activities and sensitive adult intereaction, and they will absorb and be prepared though their own curiosities and wonder about the world and their own desire to explore it. And in terms of Ella being very sociable and cuddly--she is *totally* a very outgoing and sociable girl! It is funny, because I noticed that about her when she was very, very little--she is so expressive and has a way of drawing people to her. She is very sensitive to other people--not in the sense of being easily hurt, but in the sense of being very attuned to others. I always laugh and say that when she is two I'm going to get her a job as a greeter at Walmart, because almost everywhere we go, she has to greet everybody. For example, if we turn her loose in a restaurant, she'll table to table and visit for a while with everybody! She has very high levels of social and emotional intelligence.

[spughy]

Originally Posted by Kavita

I agree about different intelligences in children. (well, in everybody really but we're focusing on the babies/kids.) One of the reasons I don't want to send Ella to a traditional school is that I think that the educational system focuses on a very narrow range of talents and abilities. Even mainstream early child education seems so reductionist, and about reading readiness and learning a set group of concepts (colors, numbers, letters, etc.) I think that takes all the fun and wonder out of learning right at the outset! That is what is so appealing to me about the theories that state that we don't really have to "teach" young children anything, just give them an enriching environment and appropriate activities and sensitive adult intereaction, and they will absorb and be prepared though their own curiosities and wonder about the world and their own desire to explore it.

ITA. In fact I couldn't agree more. I used to think the idea of unschooling was pretty wacky, but now I'm thinking it's actually a pretty good idea.

Amy, homeopathics work on the principle that a very dilute solution of something that causes the same symptoms in the body will trigger the body's own immune (or other) system to act to dispel the symptoms or balance the system. Personally, I don't think they work (flame me all you like, I know that's an unpopular view here!) - I have tried homeopathic remedies for teething, headaches, colds, sore throats... and have had no measurable success. OTOH, since the solutions are SO dilute, there is no possible way they could harm anyone, so they are perfectly safe. I say give 'em a shot. There's a chance they could help (don't discount the placebo effect!) and at worst, they're just overpriced sugar pills.

That having been said, I'm a strong proponent of herbal medicine. (FDA, schmeff d a - the FDA hasn't approved domperidone for use as a lactation aid either, thank goodness the Canadian drug supervisory what-what is more sensible on THAT score.) But there's no reason to use herbs the same way as drugs anyway - herbs are meant to gently support existing systems, not override natural processes like drugs do. If Brynn's drinking cow's milk, you could try steeping a bag of chamomile tea in some warm milk on the stove for about 15 minutes, then cooling it to drinking temperature and giving her that just before bedtime. If she's not drinking cow's milk, just try giving her some tepid straight chamomile tea. Chamomile is very safe (and not bitter at all) and is a relaxant rather than technically a sleep aid. I would avoid valerian, which is the most common sleep herb - I think it is too powerful for little bodies and COULD mess up her natural sleep cycles and create a dependency. Also, a small lavender pillow can sometimes help as long as there aren't any other conflicting scents in bed (like if you or Jason wear scented deodorant/ap or colognes, or if you use linen water or scented dryer sheets on your linens, etc.) Scents are actually very important for sleep for some people (particularly crappy sleepers like myself) - I have a much harder time sleeping with Rowan when her jammies have been laundered at my MIL's house because there's a smell of air freshener in the bed. And who hasn't been woken up by the smell of coffee or bacon and eggs? So, try to keep your bedroom entirely scent-free except for a small amount of (real, not Glade) lavender.

[Awaken]

First off, I want to belatedly thank everyone who offered commiseration and links to get decent bras! Teresa, Jen, kidspiration, Kristina. I looked at all the sites and they looked good. I don't know what size I am since nothing I buy fits, but I just ordered the Blue Canoe cross-over bra and we'll see what happens!! Tank tops w/ built in bras work the best for me, but I can't wear a little tank top to work or church so I need at least one actual bra!

Originally Posted by MelW

As for the verbal=intelligent stereotype, we get it all the time. It's easier to know what is going on inside of a verbal toddler's head, but certainly no more or less in there!

Mel- thanks for that. Since as you know, we're on the opposite side of the spectrum- it's easy to think, or for others to think, that kids aren't as smart when they don't talk. Yet, there is so much going on inside their heads- I have little thinkers. And really, my dh and I are not talkers at all, we think and observe more- so it makes sense that our kids are the same way.

Originally Posted by MelW

Susannah~ I want details of the bum biting, too

We had a bunch of 7/7/7 babies at work this evening. I'm tired and off to bed...

LOL, me too, Susannah!

Neat about the 7/7/07 babies!

Amy- I'd look into the CST for sure. We use calms forte and teething tablets and chamomilia, and different relaxing teas- I don't know if it actually helps, but at least it feels like we're doing something, and it's not harmful.

[*Amy*]

Originally Posted by Kavita

One of the reasons I don't want to send Ella to a traditional school is that I think that the educational system focuses on a very narrow range of talents and abilities. Even mainstream early child education seems so reductionist, and about reading readiness and learning a set group of concepts (colors, numbers, letters, etc.) I think that takes all the fun and wonder out of learning right at the outset!

Originally Posted by Spughy

ITA. In fact I couldn't agree more. I used to think the idea of unschooling was pretty wacky, but now I'm thinking it's actually a pretty good idea.

Only on MDC could I feel "too mainstream" for wanting to send Brynn to Montessori.

I wrote a position paper in college about homeschooling, and my position was "against," but I have to admit that by the time I had finished writing it, I had really been persuaded otherwise. That being said, though...I just don't think it's what is right for *our* family, for a lot of reasons. Even though I plan to go back to teaching someday (maybe as soon as next year), I don't really want to feel like I am solely responsible for everything Brynn learns and experiences. I mean I know that's a narrow way of looking at it, but my point is that homeschooling would feel like a burden - *to me* - and I would always feel like I wasn't doing an adequate job. Ya know?

Thanks for all of the info on homeopathics and stuff. I think at the very least, I will try the chamomile in milk option as soon as I can. I don't think we have any chamomile tea right now, but yes, Spughy - Brynn does drink cow milk, so we can try your suggestion. I did give her some teething tabs way back in the day, but it didn't seem to work for us either, so I haven't been really motivated to try anything else. One of our friends suggested valerian, and then I read about it and learned it's what is used to make valium, so I was like no thanks!

I am reading this really interesting book, though (101 To Help Your Daughter Love Her Body) that talks about the importance of loving touch during infancy and childhood, and it did make me sort-of remember that Brynn is both so active and so not-cuddly that I think we get a lot of our loving touch time in at night when she wakes up to be resettled. It gave me a different perspective last night, and I was a lot more peaceful about it. Still very tired this morning, but at least not depressed/resentful. To be honest with y'all, I really do miss her sleeping with us (and so does DH, even more than I do, I think); I just wish that it were more peaceful for all of us! When she nurses all night, I wake up with my back killing me, and no one gets good sleep.

[Queen of Cups]

Amy, this may sound like a silly question/suggestion - but can you nap with Brynn during the day? I think part of the reason my kids have both transferred to their own big-kid beds is because we nap together, and get a lot of cuddling and shared-sleep time that way. I usually curl up in the bed with a kid on either side of me and read to them (while nursing Ellie) until they're both asleep. And, I fall asleep with them at least half the time! We joke in our house about the massive amount of sleep-pheromones our kids must output, because it is so freaking hard to stay awake when kids are sleeping right by you!

[Awaken]

Hi all, this may be old news to all of you, but I was just reading another thread and noticed that our fellow DDC mama Belleweather is pregnant! : I'm sure you've all already talked about this and I've missed it!

[spiritmomma]

*Amy* I agree that the homeopathy is VERY safe. Whether or not it works for Brynn will be determined probably by her personal chemistry. Isa LOVES the tablets. I think they really work for her. The Calms Forte for kids is great when she hasn't napped all day and it is too late for a nap (ie: too close to bedtime). They calm her without making her drowsy or "drugged up". The teething tablets are also wonderful. When she starts to get a tooth, I wait to give them too her until she asks. And she usually does ask when her teeth start really bothering her.
And I agree completely with Spughy that a lavender pillow is a great idea. I've made one for each member of our family. I stuff it with flax seed (so it's kinda heavy and really supportive for your neck/head. I also add a bit of lavender for inducing relaxation. If you want, I'd be ever so happy to make you one for Brynn or send you my rough pattern so you can sew one yourself. PM me for details if you want.

And I loved this and couldn't agree more:

Originally Posted by *Amy*

Spiritmomma, I was thinking something along the lines of what you said in your post, about how all children are intelligten. My feeling is, all children *shine* in some way. For some kids, it's verbal aptitude; for others, it's physical mastery; for others, it's their awesome personalities. Jason and I have so much fun with Ella, for example, because she is SO giggly and cuddly (very unlike Brynn); she actually cuddles with me more than my own child does! Every child is just wonderful, I think.

Kavita, I agree completely that traditional education focuses too narrowly on what talents/ gifts/ skills are valuable. If the talents/ gifts/ skills are so valuable, why are so many VERY educated people out of work? And why are skilled professionals (hairdressers, auto mechanics, plumbers, etc...) living so abundantly? Many of those skilled professionals did not do very well in traditional school, but are very successful in life. Kinda makes you think, huh? Go Unschoolers!

Susannah: Hilarious but OUCH! Unless Keagan is very tall, I can't picture how this is possible!

Barcelona I'm glad you and Finley had such a great time in the pool! How wonderful for you!

Isa is definitely a swimmer. She loves to be in the water... maybe because she was born in water? I think I'm going to get her one of those really silly-looking flotation suits. We went to a family gathering today and my aunt had just had a pool installed. It's a salt water pool (no chlorine) and they had one of those suits laying around so we tried it. Isa felt much more secure in it than just with a loose tube or arm floaties. I wish I could have got in the pool with her, but I just had my tattoo worked on on Saturday!!!

Here's some long awaited pics... (keep in mind that I have one more session to finish up the green in the hair and retouch the white stars on the magic breast and milk on the nursing breast).

Have a happy week, everyone!

[*Amy*]

Originally Posted by spiritmomma

*Amy* I agree that the homeopathy is VERY safe. Whether or not it works for Brynn will be determined probably by her personal chemistry. Isa LOVES the tablets. I think they really work for her.

Well maybe I have to eat my words, because I gave Brynn 3 teething tabs at bedtime, and she slept great last night - and IS STILL SLEEPING!!! I'm in shock; usually I'm lucky if she sleeps til 7:00. She only woke up twice last night, so needless to say I feel like this today instead of this. I even got to go walking (and see the sunrise), eat breakfast, take a shower, AND read my email and MDC threads!! It's a good day, I tell ya!

QoC, yep that is the obvious solution, I know. I have tried so many times to nap (both with her in the bed and with her in her crib) and it rarely works. I just lay there thinking about all of the things I want to be doing while I have some free time. Or if I do go to sleep, I end up being woken at the wrong time during my sleep cycle, so I end up feeling even more groggy for the rest of the day. I think since Brynn's been born, I've had like 3 really satisfying naps, and that's it. I think if her sleep doesn't continue to improve, I am just going to have to make myself do it. Or meditate while she sleeps, or something.

Hey, Spughy - isn't this your last full week of work?


For some reason I have July 16th in my mind as your last day of work. Is that right, or is it this Friday (Friday the 13th, yikes! )?

Jaymi, your tattoo looks *amazing*!!! I'm PMing you about the pillow.

[flapjack]

Mary, my love, you're behind the times. The Nov 05 mamas pretty much have their own second-time DDC- zjande, belleweather, crsta33, strawberryfields, me, jillybeans and, erm, I forgot someone : there's another Nov mama in Dec07 though, I'm sure, and everyone else is due between December and March So don't drink the water round here
We had a fantastic day at the cirencester show yesterday- not as much fun as the other ones we've been to (too commercial) but Skye went on a carousel for the first time She giggled and chuckled all the way round, shouting whee, horsie, whee, horsie, horsie, horsie I always loved them when I was little, so it was cool to take her on. (We had a disaster with Isaac and the ferris wheel though ) Lots of pretty sheep, too.
Pictures will follow on the blog, I promise.

[spughy]

Originally Posted by *Amy*

Hey, Spughy - isn't this your last full week of work?

It sure is!!! Friday's my last day! WOOOOOT!!!! (but stresss - I have much work to do, and little time to do it in, and the guy replacing me is a friend so I don't want to stick him with it. He's also arguably a better choice for the job than me even though so I no longer feel even the tiniest bit guilt leaving )

Amy, so glad to hear that the homeopathic stuff worked for you. It probably IS all about the body chemistry. My whole family has a long history of being unaffected by everything from herbal remedies to actual medication (interestingly, my sisters and I are all completely resistant to valerian and possibly valium as well) so it's probably genetic and with my luck my little girl inherited that as well. (I remember my mom being frustrated by cold medicines not working for us when we were little...)

Ok, I'm swearing off MDC for the whole rest of the day so I can get my work done. But Susannah, count me in among the millions who really want to know how your boy bit your bum. :

Oh except one more thing. I had a really eye-opening experience yesterday, we went to a picnic in the park for friends of ours (an MDC momma & dada, actually) who are moving to New York. A bunch of families came, lots of kids we used to hang out with in baby groups in the good old days before Rowan started running around and making baby groups obselete... anyway - the range in abilities in these kids, who were mostly around the same age (the youngest was 14 months, Rowan was the oldest at 19 mo, but 4 or 5 were 18 mo) was INCREDIBLE. Rowan and one of her little friends who is 6 weeks younger than her were running around like true toddlers - Rowan's a bit more verbal, but Eli's much more adventurous and was there exactly 2 minutes before he ran into the water playground and soaked himself thoroughly. But another little girl the same age as Eli wasn't really walking yet, and yet another one the same age as Rowan only started walking a few weeks ago, while a little girl a few months younger than Rowan is walking well and almost as verbal as Rowan (especially if you count her signs) and is practically diaper-free. (We are so not anywhere near that yet.) And a little boy who was ahead of Rowan reaching-milestone-wise the last I saw him, who started crawling exceptionally early and wanted to stand from the time he was born, decided he's good with the crawling and has reached 14 months with no apparent desire to walk. (His mother is pretty happy about that. ) It's CRAZY. I mean, I always knew that there was a pretty wide range of normal, but to see it so vividly in real life was pretty amazing. They are all absolutely lovely children, and very much loved by their mamas and dadas. It was a really nice afternoon.