LLL, its reputation, and lactivism - Page 2

[christyp]

Gotta agree with several PP that the LLLeader makes the group. I want to underscore the fact that LLLeaders are volunteers who are usually passionate about BF and helping people. While they have some training in group management, it really is a learned skill that doesn't necessarily correlate with knowledge about BF and desire to help other moms. I've also heard stories of LLL weirdos (sadly from my sister, a labor and delivery nurse with no children!) and negative experiences, but I have also heard great stories about how LLL helped people overcome challenges. All identifiable groups will have their detractors.

[Decca]

Also, unfortunately there is the occasional case of LLL members/leaders not being supportive (the stories you read of people going and being told they weren't trying hard enough), and it really hurts the cause. It tarnishes the image of LLL and makes people afraid of the group.

This happened to a friend of mine. I wasn't with her, but she came home from her LLL meeting in tears, vowing never to go again. Fortunately, she knew where else she could turn for help, and I really resent the idea that people who complain about LLL were just looking for "excuses" to wean. You have no idea what those individual women's motivations were.

[Beccah+twins+1]

I am a member of my local LLL group.

I have encountered this negative stereotype of LLL. Just recently I was out to dinner with some women from a new social group I joined. We were relating birth stories and one woman (who had mentioned earlier in a side conversation that she had had breast reduction) mentioned to the group about how she had tried to bf, and couldn't and the "lactation nurse" had her in tears. Another woman (who had not previously heard this woman mention her breast reduction) piped up "oh the La Leche League nazis!". Although I know many people feel this way, I was truly stunned. I made sure to mention to the woman who said this that the woman relating this birth story had had breast reduction (meaning, she had a good reason to have difficulty breastfeeding!). But I was taken aback because the woman said "lactation nurse", NOT LLL. This woman with the nazi comment just jumped right in with that and I did not respond because what could I say? It was out of context to start out with AND I was not at all expecting to hear that.

I was enjoying this woman's company but that comment definitely changed my opinion of her (this was my first time meeting her). She did make that feeling her breasts for fullness motion while saying she needed to get home to her 4 month old, so she's obviously bf'ing, but somewhere, somehow she picked up this negative concept of LLL. I doubt she's ever been to a meeting. More likely she has heard that from other people. It's a shame really.

I can understand how people like us (meaning lactavists) think LLL is too "soft", but we have to remember that they are trying to help ALL women to succeed at bf'ing. If being soft is the price they pay for reaching a much broader audience, than it's worth it. The goal of the organization is not and never has been lactavism. To quote the founders from the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding (and I am sure I'm paraphrasing):

"We did not concern ourselves with those women who did not want to breastfeed. We had our hands full just helping all the women who did want to succeed at breastfeeding".

That is the stance of the organization. Increase bf'ing rates through information, support and resources. Lactavism is similar but different. I see lactavism as changing the culture as a whole to be more bf'ing friendly, including affecting the mindset of not just women who want to bf, but also women who don't, and all people be it man, woman or child. Lactavism is for bf'ing rights and acceptance. LLL is support for women who want to bf successfully, as well as support for the family as a whole.

I agree that the leader(s) make a difference. If they are truly acting in accordance with LLL, they should not be mixing lactavism with their role as LLL leader. I find our leaders to be pretty good at balancing both. Lactavists for sure within our closer circle, but accepting and open to the group as a whole, especially to new people coming to us for bf'ing help and advice.

As for the woman who made the nazi comment, well I plan to wear my LLL t-shirt the next time I think I'll see her. Maybe it will open a dialog. Maybe she will realize that someone like me, who can seem mainstream (and is a lot of ways) is also a supporter of LLL.

[philomom]

My experiences with LLL were bad ones. This was when I lived in Decatur, Ga in the early 90's. The leader there was just too over the top. She gave advice that was guilt laden. I believe no one needs that as a new mom. Too bad I ran the local new mom's support group at the local hospital because I truthfully told my ladies to "stay away from that LLL leader".

P.S. I devotedly nursed two babies past 18 months apiece. I merely had trouble getting started.

[bellymama]

Originally Posted by philomom

My experiences with LLL were bad ones. This was when I lived in Decatur, Ga in the early 90's. The leader there was just too over the top. She gave advice that was guilt laden. I believe no one needs that as a new mom. Too bad I ran the local new mom's support group at the local hospital because I truthfully told my ladies to "stay away from that LLL leader".

P.S. I devotedly nursed two babies past 18 months apiece. I merely had trouble getting started.

this is what i have heard to, which makes me sad...LLL is a great organization in itself, but i have several friends who have had LLL leaders attack them because they were doing something (something they would have loved to learn how to fix...but were instead attacked). i know not all LLL leaders are like that...just sad that some are...that just drives mama's away.:

[pixiewytch]

I don't think the lactivism is what puts people off, although I can't say I've seen much political activity or information from our group.

In my area, LLL is pretty lumped into militant AP style moms, not just breastfeeding. I'll admit that I was a bit hesitant to go at first because although I'm pretty left on most things, I'm not 100% AP, cosleeping, and so forth. My neighbor went to LLL religiously and since she represented all of those things I kind of assumed that is what LLL would be like...and that even if everybody was nice I would feel inferior or pressured to adopt parenting styles that were not for me. It had nothing to do with breastfeeding!!!

Anyway, to make a long story short I did start attending meetings and was pleasantly surprised to see women all over the spectrum. I haven't seen any belittling or pressuring to do things a certain way. So I think we have a good group.

So yeah, I do think a lot of women shy away from LLL because of all of the other things aside from BFing that seem to stereotypically go along with an LLL meeting.

[mamajake]

Originally Posted by sonrisaa29

Here's my question in regards to that. How does one check if one is truly certified by LLL? To bad they don't hand out id cards...ok so maybe that a little much. But I guess my reasoning is that if people have a bad experience with LLL but its not someone from LLL there is no way to tell the difference. It would be great if there was.

Again for I think it depends on the group leader/group on how the experience is.

Actually, you do get cards and a Leader number even. I don't think most people carry them around, though.

[SwanMom]

I haven't made it to any meetings, but when I was having trouble at the beginning I called a LLL leader for help. She returned my call and spent around 20 minutes making sure I was well taken care of, even though her husband wasn't home and her 3 kids were. It was so great to have that support and it gave me hope that things would improve. I feel like she should have been paid for her time, expertise, and attentiveness. No negative feelings here!

[Autoemesiss]

I was told for years to stay away from LLL. "Those people" are real facistist when it comes to bfing.... Scared the beegeebees out of me.

Then I started to have problems Bfing my DD. Went to a specialist and they had a mom's group there that was run by a LLL leader. It was very main stream but had hints of APing, Babywearing, etc. I was encourage to check out the local LLL groups. I did go to one and it horrible. People were talking about supply and the leader firmly stated that LMS is a falicy and an excuse for mom's to quit. I quickly pipped up and said, no that is not true, and I've been trying like he** to get my supply up with pumping every 2 hours 24hours a day, domperidone, goats rue, mother's milk, fengreek etc, for the past 8 months! LMS does exist and I have it and despartely wish to keep bfing my child.

She then went on to say, sure a very very very small percentage "might" have LMS.... The rest of the group became so distant and almost disappoving of me. I never went back. I was really hurt.

I did go back to the mom's group and talked to the LLL leader there about my experience and she was shocked. She gave me another group to go to (which is actually closer to me) and told me call first and explain to her that I truley have LMS and did she have a problem with it. So I did and that LLL leader was shocked that someone didn't believe me and that is why LLL is around, to help and support bfing in any form.

Well, I went to that group and am now a LLL member.

[Peony]

It always makes me sad to hear negative stories about LLL but I know that every leader is different. I'm very active in LLL and once had a co-leader who would discuss regularly at the meetings how she weaned her DC, one was sent away with grandparents, another one she put hot sauce on her nipples, and she was a leader through all of this. : Drove me insane.

I bend over backwards trying to met mothers were they are at, CLWing, nursing through pf, etc... are not right for every mom so I try not to make blanket statements. I honestly feel that LLL is soft in their approach because they are trying to appeal to the masses, I respect that. I agree that they can't win no matter what they do.

[mrsfussypants]

I can't really speak for what other people think of LLL's reputation, but I sure know how I feel about it! I was soooooooo excited to join LLLI! I was hoping to meet like-minded, crunchy, MDC-type mamas, you know... Not to mention help with breastfeeding. But my experience ended up leaving me with a bad taste in my mouth for LLL.

First of all, at this particular group, because the meeting times are different every month, you have to be invited to the meeting to know when and where it is. It took forever to get on this exclusive email list. I went to two meetings, and I loved the group, loved the leader and other participants, everything seemed nice. But I guess the feeling wasn't mutual. The leader said on two separate occasions that she would send me breastfeeding information via email and she never did. And then when she *did* email, she said that I may be "more comfortable" at another LLL group (not hers) and basically uninvited me from her group. No idea why... I was so hurt.

So naturally I didn't join LLLI. It's a shame really, because I think the principles that LLLI founded are sound and good. It was probably just this particular group.

[elanorh]

One of dh's good friends from college was an LLL Leader for several years. We didn't know that until we sent out our Christmas letter when Ina was about 15 months old, and mentioned in there her allergies and that she was still breastfeeding. She wrote me a little note saying how wonderful it was that we had persevered - it was a wonderful note to receive from someone I didn't know that well at all. The next time we saw them, is when she mentioned that she was a leader herself. When we visit, it's always nice to talk with her and her dh because they also are quite AP in their parenting and I think both of us feel relieved that we don't have to tip-toe around or justify our parenting choices with each other, KWIM?

So she's really the only "face" I have for LLL since there isn't a group here. My experiences have been positive, and I would love to have (or begin) an LLL group here.

I think that several pps have mentioned that LLL seems extreme to the mainstream, just in giving out sound breastfeeding advice, and I'd say that for every negative experience with a particular LLL Leader or group, there are probably 10 misinterpreted negative experiences, where actual factual bf information is interpreted as "fascist bf propaganda." As in --

You wouldn't believe it, the LLL Leader actually told me that giving a bottle at night would decrease my supply!

At the LLL meeting, they were talking about pacis and said that we shouldn't use them when babies are young!

The LLL group said that we shouldn't schedule our babies, how am I supposed to get anything done?

When I told the LLL Leader that I was so tired, she actually suggested moving the baby into OUR bedroom?!

The problem is that even when they are trying to keep things low-key, so much of the good, science-based breastfeeding advice runs counter to what people are used to expecting that babies (and mothers) should do in our culture. So LLL does sound weird and freaky when they give good bf advice. Especially when the HCPs don't believe/advise similarly (look how many doctors tell mothers to get their babies on a rigid feeding schedule, etc.).

I think it's sad when a LLL Leader gets in the way of the program -- can't (and don't) people try to address that with the Leader herself, or with other Leaders in the area or etc., so that she can be more effective and less abrasive?

ETA: And is part of the problem with ineffective or offensive groups/leaders, actually tied into the 'stereotypical' female communication style wherein we don't give upfront feedback (and take offense when it IS given to us)? Having been a supervisor for a long time, I'm really comfortable in situations like that; but I know many people aren't, and avoid giving feedback and/or actually take offense when it's given ... kind of a "catty woman" loop instead?? Where instead of telling the leader directly, "I felt attacked and uncomfortable, this is the research I've done, this is how I'd have preferred you approach this" or "Several women have left the group because they didn't feel included" or etc. ---- we talk about the leaders behind their backs and then wonder why she's not fixing things when she never got the feedback in the first place?

I don't remember the specifics, but I know Tannen's books talk about women in Western cultures often communicating through the 'back door' rather than directly - so if Jane has a problem with Anne, Jane tells Sally who tells Mary who tells Sue who tells Anne and then Anne has to try to fix it, KWIM?

[hypatia]

Originally Posted by elanorh

The problem is that even when they are trying to keep things low-key, so much of the good, science-based breastfeeding advice runs counter to what people are used to expecting that babies (and mothers) should do in our culture. So LLL does sound weird and freaky when they give good bf advice. Especially when the HCPs don't believe/advise similarly (look how many doctors tell mothers to get their babies on a rigid feeding schedule, etc.).

Bingo. LLL works extremely hard at soft pedaling its sell tactics, but the fact is it's a counter-cultural institution and its message is jarring to a lot of people. It takes a delicate touch to navigate those shoals without offending a person or two.

[pixiewytch]

Originally Posted by mrsfussypants

I can't really speak for what other people think of LLL's reputation, but I sure know how I feel about it! I was soooooooo excited to join LLLI! I was hoping to meet like-minded, crunchy, MDC-type mamas, you know... Not to mention help with breastfeeding. But my experience ended up leaving me with a bad taste in my mouth for LLL.

First of all, at this particular group, because the meeting times are different every month, you have to be invited to the meeting to know when and where it is. It took forever to get on this exclusive email list. I went to two meetings, and I loved the group, loved the leader and other participants, everything seemed nice. But I guess the feeling wasn't mutual. The leader said on two separate occasions that she would send me breastfeeding information via email and she never did. And then when she *did* email, she said that I may be "more comfortable" at another LLL group (not hers) and basically uninvited me from her group. No idea why... I was so hurt.

So naturally I didn't join LLLI. It's a shame really, because I think the principles that LLLI founded are sound and good. It was probably just this particular group.

That just absolutely floors me! I'm so sorry you have had that experience and there is no reason in the world why LLL shouldn't be easily accessible to anyone breastfeeding. That is just a downright shame. :

[Nazsmum]

I have mixed feelings about LLL. I pay the dues and get the mag. I go to meetings but I really feel like some of the leaders wish I did not come. The meeting I go to has 6 leaders and they are the "people" that talk to each other and go out after meetings. Some times I really ask myself why do I go???

On the other hand I talked to some women in the same position that I was in and feel like I was an understanding ear.

[KJoslyn78]

i see a lot of correlation in reactions i get when i say i attend LL meetings, in much the same way i did when i was vegan (i am currently not).... most people ASSUMED i was a PETA supporter/zelot and would feel it was ok to bash me for it. Though thankfully the only negeative response i have gotten about LLL is from my DCs Dr (yeah - we are currently looking for a new ped dr) i have heard MANY times of other being questioned and what not after saying they attend LLL meetings and treating them like BFing zelots. It's too bad really that a few people (be it the rare "bad" leader, member, anti-bfing closed minded opinion) can ruin what i have found to be a tredemously helpful source of supprt in BFing my ds (he is the only one i have been able to BF past the first birthday!)

[WannabeaFarmer]

I have also heard the term "breastfeeding nazi" used in reference to LLL Leaders/Members. In the sense that people who are attending LLL meetings are the kind of people who would condisend or become violently angry at someone who bottle feeds or doesnt support breastfeeding.
Now that is how this particular person put it to me :
I have been attending LLL meetings since I was 12 yrs old(with my mom after she 1st had my brother). I knew from that age that breastfeeding was a way of life. It wasnt an option I decided, it was the only way I wanted to feed my baby. This was from the positive infulence that these women instilled in me from a young age. I have experienced a few negative situations at meetings, but for the most part everything I have experienced has been pleasant.
I have always been told this by every LLL Leader I have ever met "Take what you like/want and leave the rest" just go with the flow. If the meetings dont feel right or there is something you dont agree with, just ignore it and move on. Thats the way they have always put it to me at most meetings I attended...
I have always gotten pretty good support. The only time I met a road block where I butted heads with a leader is when I chose to donate 185oz of breastmilk that I knew I would never get around to using(DD was preemie and this was how much I had pumped and was never used from when she was in the NICU). The leader really told me how she felt about that:
But I had already donated that and just shrugged it off....It came up by mistake and caused her a bit of a tizzy but didnt bother me none...:

[mamaverdi]

It depends on the audience where I hear too soft or too hard.

For the too soft audience, just as the too hard audience, I would proprose that they don't know much about LLL.



To the mamas who faced some kind of insult at the hand of LLLLeaders,

[TheBluebird]

Originally Posted by jess12808

I have always gotten pretty good support. The only time I met a road block where I butted heads with a leader is when I chose to donate 185oz of breastmilk that I knew I would never get around to using(DD was preemie and this was how much I had pumped and was never used from when she was in the NICU). The leader really told me how she felt about that:
But I had already donated that and just shrugged it off....It came up by mistake and caused her a bit of a tizzy but didnt bother me none...:

I don't get it. Why would milk donation be bad??

[CalBearMama]

I have been attending LLL meetings for about 3 years (since I was pregnant). I have also heard negative comments from others - even committed breastfeeding mamas - about "those LLL people." A friend was describing how she had nursed her daughter well past age two, but then issued the disclaimer that she was not "one of those crazy LLL people." I just laughed and said, "Well, I am!" and told her how helpful the meetings had been in preparing me for the experience of breastfeeding and giving me a core group of like-minded mamas to talk to every month. I don't think she'd ever actually met anyone from LLL, and anyone who would admit to being a member, so I think the negativity was based entirely on what others have mentioned above - the fact that our society labels breastfeeding, and the only organization that exists solely to support breastfeeding, as "wacko."

I was also thinking, though, about the very nature of LLL - being mom-to-mom support. In that model, I think there's always the danger that someone's feelings are going to get hurt if they get advice from another mom that makes them feel like they're not trying hard enough or not parenting the "right" way. I feel like the moms who attend our local LLL meeting have researched their parenting choices very thoroughly and try to give good advice to new moms based on what is truly best for babies and for the nursing relationship, but a lot of moms may not want to hear that because it does deviate from the "mainstream." One mom came to our meeting and started raving about how she had sleep-trained her baby, and how great it was that the baby was STTN (but unfortunately also had trouble gaining weight - hmmm). Because of LLL's official stance that sleep-training is detrimental to the breastfeeding relationship, our leader had to step in and say that and stop that conversation, and that may have alienated that particular mom (even though I thought the leader did a great job of being non-judgmental about it), and that mom never came to another meeting. Who knows what she says now about the crazy LLL wackos who dared to question her "normal" parenting choice to sleep-train her infant.

So basically, until breastfeeding itself is seen as the normal way to feed babies in our culture, and there is also a widespread understanding and acceptance of the fact that certain mainstream parenting practices have the potential to undermine breastfeeding, I think LLL is going to be viewed negatively by many Americans, even if they have absolutely no personal experience with the organization. Sad, but true. And unfortunately, it would require a huge cultural shift to change this situation. My personal contribution is supporting LLL, recommending LLL as a resource, etc.

Oh, another thing our local group is struggling with is the fact that new moms don't really come to us unless they're having trouble BF. Yes, that's what LLL is there for, but we'd also like to think that we can function as a resource for all new moms to meet other moms and get support generally. But we feel like we're competing with various generic "moms' groups," some of which people actually pay a pretty hefty fee to participate in. And the crunchier moms often end up dissatisfied with these moms' groups because their parenting practices are not in line with or respected by the other moms, so they would be so much better off at our meetings. But how do we reach this population of moms who view LLL solely as BF support if they happen to have a problem, and therefore never attend a meeting?