LLL, its reputation, and lactivism - Page 3

[sonrisaa29]

Originally Posted by CalBearMama

I have been attending LLL meetings for about 3 years (since I was pregnant). I have also heard negative comments from others - even committed breastfeeding mamas - about "those LLL people." A friend was describing how she had nursed her daughter well past age two, but then issued the disclaimer that she was not "one of those crazy LLL people." I just laughed and said, "Well, I am!" and told her how helpful the meetings had been in preparing me for the experience of breastfeeding and giving me a core group of like-minded mamas to talk to every month. I don't think she'd ever actually met anyone from LLL, and anyone who would admit to being a member, so I think the negativity was based entirely on what others have mentioned above - the fact that our society labels breastfeeding, and the only organization that exists solely to support breastfeeding, as "wacko."

I was also thinking, though, about the very nature of LLL - being mom-to-mom support. In that model, I think there's always the danger that someone's feelings are going to get hurt if they get advice from another mom that makes them feel like they're not trying hard enough or not parenting the "right" way. I feel like the moms who attend our local LLL meeting have researched their parenting choices very thoroughly and try to give good advice to new moms based on what is truly best for babies and for the nursing relationship, but a lot of moms may not want to hear that because it does deviate from the "mainstream." One mom came to our meeting and started raving about how she had sleep-trained her baby, and how great it was that the baby was STTN (but unfortunately also had trouble gaining weight - hmmm). Because of LLL's official stance that sleep-training is detrimental to the breastfeeding relationship, our leader had to step in and say that and stop that conversation, and that may have alienated that particular mom (even though I thought the leader did a great job of being non-judgmental about it), and that mom never came to another meeting. Who knows what she says now about the crazy LLL wackos who dared to question her "normal" parenting choice to sleep-train her infant.

So basically, until breastfeeding itself is seen as the normal way to feed babies in our culture, and there is also a widespread understanding and acceptance of the fact that certain mainstream parenting practices have the potential to undermine breastfeeding, I think LLL is going to be viewed negatively by many Americans, even if they have absolutely no personal experience with the organization. Sad, but true. And unfortunately, it would require a huge cultural shift to change this situation. My personal contribution is supporting LLL, recommending LLL as a resource, etc.

Oh, another thing our local group is struggling with is the fact that new moms don't really come to us unless they're having trouble BF. Yes, that's what LLL is there for, but we'd also like to think that we can function as a resource for all new moms to meet other moms and get support generally. But we feel like we're competing with various generic "moms' groups," some of which people actually pay a pretty hefty fee to participate in. And the crunchier moms often end up dissatisfied with these moms' groups because their parenting practices are not in line with or respected by the other moms, so they would be so much better off at our meetings. But how do we reach this population of moms who view LLL solely as BF support if they happen to have a problem, and therefore never attend a meeting?

I wonder did anyone in the group call the woman and invite her back? Anyone make any other overtures of friendship to this woman, so perhaps she could have a support system instead of feeling "judged at the hands of LLL". Also did the the leader pull her aside after the meeting or was it during the meeting in front of everyone.


I know in my case a friend recommend LLL because I wanted to BF for a month or so just to be able to give my child some of the benefits. THis was as long as I could medically stay off my meds. Since my doctor told me there was a 5-10% of my meds being extremely harmful to my child I didn't want to take any chances. The LLL leader was extremely rude and basically didn't want to listen to my "issues" .

[Momtwice]

Originally Posted by TheBluebird

I don't get it. Why would milk donation be bad??

Yeah, the leaders I know donate milk, (some of them) rather than bashing moms who donate it.

[wannabe]

regarding milk donation, it's a liability thing - if LLL hooked you up with someone who was unreliable and haad Hep B or something, they might be liable. So the leader has to put her official hat on and say "LLL can't support informal milk sharing".

Of course, OFF the record...

[mamajake]

Originally Posted by wannabe

regarding milk donation, it's a liability thing - if LLL hooked you up with someone who was unreliable and haad Hep B or something, they might be liable. So the leader has to put her official hat on and say "LLL can't support informal milk sharing".

Of course, OFF the record...

Actually, just this year the LLLI Board of Directors adopted a new policy on milk donation/sharing. In very short, Leaders can not be involved in the actual transactions, but must discuss the known benefits and risks of milk donation/sharing with mothers who ask about it. LLLI does not have a policy either for or against the practice. This is a matter for individual mothers to choose and LLLI can help them gain the most information possible about the benefits and risks involved. It is probably true that most Leaders haven't read the policy yet, though it has been available for several months.

I know it probably isn't realistic to expect, but moms who have these bad experiences at the group level would very often find that if they called the International office that Leaders who condemn individual parenting choices (assuming the practice does not create an imminent medical risk for the child) are not acting in accordance with LLLI policies. At its best, LLL helps and supports educated choices. If the choice is to formula feed, you will certainly not be comfortable continuing to go to meetings because Leaders won't be able to answer your questions about formula and day-to-day issues with formula fed babies. It isn't what LLL Leaders are trained about and few of them have done it, so the expertise isn't there. Also it isn't an appropriate use of LLL's very limited resources. Pediatricians are more than happy to advise about formula.

[ellebelle]

Great post, CalBearMama!!

I was one of those women who believed that LLL was a group of radical, non-shaving, mumu-birkenstock-wearing, crunchy earth mamas. That just wasn't me (former suit wearing corporate type), so I didn't go to meetings. I persevered through cracked-bleeding nipples and breast infections before I encountered a nursing strike at 4 months. I broke down and called a leader. She gave me a few tips over the phone and invited me to a meeting. I went with great trepidation and found, to my surprise, a wide variety of women, some that fitted my original impression (who are lovely women, btw), some women like me and some even more mainstream.

I felt fortunate that we had many leaders who were excellent at meeting women where they were. They gave out factual information, but worked hard to make sure that individuals were respected. In the 9 years I was attending meetings, I can think of only one meeting where some moms left feeling unsupported and attacked. It was not the leaders, but some passionate members who expressed opinions, not intention to offend, but managed to do so anyway.

Through my experiences with LLL, I grew as a parent, learned to trust my own intuitive parenting knowledge. I also learned to change my lifestyle - I embraced AP and homeschooling as well as incorporated more whole organic foods into our diet. I learned about natural childbirth from these moms and went on to become a Bradley® teacher.

I am eternally grateful to LLL for the impact these women had on my life. I am so grateful that they met me where I was rather than imposing a "lactivist" standard on me.

Ellen
wife to G., homeschooling mom to ds13, ds11, dd7
Bradley® Certified Childbirth Educator

[krabigirl]

Just popping in quickly to say that I wanted to go to LLL while pregnant with my DD, but many friends scared me away, saying they are too pushy, scary, etc. I was so silly for listening to them. Now I have a failed BFing relationship which I still mourn every day. (I exclusively pumped for 4 months...long story that I don't want to go into right now. I didn't realize how difficult breastfeeding would be for me! the hospital classes and LCs didn't help at all.) Needless to say, I will seek out all sources of breastfeeding support and education when pregnant with my next child, and will not hesitate to go to LLL meetings.

[CalBearMama]

Originally Posted by sonrisaa29

I wonder did anyone in the group call the woman and invite her back? Anyone make any other overtures of friendship to this woman, so perhaps she could have a support system instead of feeling "judged at the hands of LLL". Also did the the leader pull her aside after the meeting or was it during the meeting in front of everyone.

These are very good questions (regarding the treatment of the mom who was enthusiastically describing how she sleep-trained her infant to STTN). At this particular LLL meeting, there were a wide variety of moms - myself and several other experienced moms with older children (who were personally disturbed by the talk of sleep training but who kept their mouths shut and let the leader handle the situation), but also a number of relatively new moms who were there looking for advice. If the leader had kept silent about the sleep training talk during the meeting, and only addressed it privately with the woman afterwards, that would have been an implicit endorsement of what this woman was saying. Our leader really had no choice but to say what she did, during the meeting, in front of everyone - that LLL policy is not to allow discussion of sleep training during meetings, because LLL considers sleep training to be potentially detrimental to the breastfeeding relationship. The leader also said that if anyone had any questions about this LLL policy, they were welcome to discuss it with her after the meeting. I think a few people took her up on this, and I also saw her chatting with the sleep-training mom after the meeting, in what looked like a very friendly way.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make originally is that many mainstream parenting practices have the potential to undermine successful breastfeeding (sleep training, scheduled feedings, etc.). Moms who are wedded to parenting in a fairly mainstream way might feel like LLL leaders or other moms at the meetings are "judging" them or are "crunchy freaks," simply because the leader and the other moms are trying to give advice and support regarding breastfeeding that is scientifically accurate, but is contrary to our culture's mainstream practices. So, until our culture values successful breastfeeding more than it values a baby "sleeping through the night" or "being on a good schedule," LLL is going to continue to be viewed as fringe, extreme, and aggressive in its breastfeeding advice. And moms will continue to reject sound breastfeeding advice, only to later say that despite their "best efforts," they had to formula feed because they just "couldn't make enough milk." (Disclaimer: This is not aimed at anyone on these boards who has a medical condition that truly prevents them from breastfeeding: End Disclaimer.)

[Sanveann]

How weird that this thread came up ... I just had a LLL conversation with a friend the other day. I'm exclusively pumping now (long story, but DS basically just went on a nursing strike that I was never able to break), and I was telling her that I had contacted a LLL leader for help. My friend said, "Oh, did she make you feel totally awful?" I said no, not at all, that she'd had some good suggestions but DS just wasn't responding.

I was surprised at first that her initial reaction was to think that the LLL leader would be critical, but then I remembered that my friend had a run-in with some very judgmental lactivists awhile ago. (Don't know if they were actually affiliated with LLL or not.) Basically, she has two adopted daughters and decided not to try to induce lactation when she adopted them ... these women were extremely critical of her for that decision, and now I think that she associates that mindset with LLL and all lactivists.

[Firemom]

Originally Posted by Ammaarah

Most of the people I know who bash LLL have never been there. They are going off info from a friend of a friend (of a friend?) and that info may or may not be based in reality.

I always make a point of telling new moms that there are often a few meetings in most cities, and to keep looking until they find a group that works for them.

This too has been my experience with people:

[ruhbehka]

Originally Posted by Autoemesiss

Then I started to have problems Bfing my DD. Went to a specialist and they had a mom's group there that was run by a LLL leader. It was very main stream but had hints of APing, Babywearing, etc. I was encourage to check out the local LLL groups. I did go to one and it horrible. People were talking about supply and the leader firmly stated that LMS is a falicy and an excuse for mom's to quit. I quickly pipped up and said, no that is not true, and I've been trying like he** to get my supply up with pumping every 2 hours 24hours a day, domperidone, goats rue, mother's milk, fengreek etc, for the past 8 months! LMS does exist and I have it and despartely wish to keep bfing my child.

She then went on to say, sure a very very very small percentage "might" have LMS.... The rest of the group became so distant and almost disappoving of me. I never went back. I was really hurt.

I had a similar experience. I still regularly attend, but I've learned to avoid asking for much help at group meetings, because it generally gets given with a warning to the rest of the group along the lines of... "She has LMS, but it really is a rare thing, so don't anyone else worry about it," which kind of makes me feel like a freak.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by ruhbehka

I had a similar experience. I still regularly attend, but I've learned to avoid asking for much help at group meetings, because it generally gets given with a warning to the rest of the group along the lines of... "She has LMS, but it really is a rare thing, so don't anyone else worry about it," which kind of makes me feel like a freak.

I can see how that is annoying, but there is a good reason. IIRC, Around 30% of women quit BFing b/c they think they have LMS, but in reality only 3% of women actually do.

[wannabe]

You'll get that response about low supply on here, too.

To be fair, 90%+ of the people who are convinced they have it, don't. But yes, there's got to be a better way to approach it, like "hhm, what makes you think your supply is low?", or "what signs do you have that your supply is low?", then you could educate while refuting each thing, or determine there really IS a problem. WDYT?

[pixiepunk]

it's funny, my mom's bf'ing relationship with my brother was totally saved by LLL, and she will tell anyone who will listen about how they came to her rescue at the hospital when she had mastitis and the UA violation nurse was telling her she had to wean him. however... she also stopped going to meetings when my brother was just like 2 months old because it *totally* freaked her out that they were nursing toddlers at the meeting. and in fact my mom thought nursing toddlers was totally wacko until I started nursing a toddler. of course now she tells everyone cute nursing toddler stories and is a huge supporter of nursing past infancy. but it was so completely foreign to her that it made her really uncomfortable. so uncomfortable she just couldn't go back or try to understand why they were doing it.

my step-dad, in fact, was telling me once about this wacky neighbor of his "who was a LLL lady" who would nurse her 4 yo in the middle of the yard while weeding the garden or whatever. his story was light-hearted, not mean spirited, but definitely with the understanding that it was an extremely bizarre thing to do to nurse a 4 yo at all, and that surely she was a little "off" because she was doing it in plain site of her neighbors in a small town. and this was after i weaned DD at age 3 with his full support of nursing that long. like he thought i would be equally surprised at anyone who would nurse longer than i did

my point of these stories is simply that, though it's extremely common here on MDC, nursing a child past the age of like 15 months is viewed by the vast majority of Americans as a totally insane and even harmful thing to do. people don't seem to be able to make the distinction, either, between a 2 or 3 year old and a 10 year old (not that it's wrong to nurse a 10 year old either, per se.... ykwim...) so it all gets lumped together in their minds. and LLL, which has become a catch-all to mean anyone crazy enough to nurse past infancy or think formula is the least bit bad, is the fall-guy for all the rude comments, jokes, etc. associated with this counter-cultural practice.

[thismama]

I think people love the status quo. And anything that threatens it, especially anything organized, is going to be seen as outrageous, and scandalous.

Personally that kind of judgment by mainstreamers makes me more likely to want to check out a group...

[mommykmm]

Originally Posted by sonrisaa29

Here's my question in regards to that. How does one check if one is truly certified by LLL? To bad they don't hand out id cards...ok so maybe that a little much.

A bona fide La Leche League Leader does get a LLL membership card each time she renews her membership. This card certifies that she is an accredited Leader and that she is covered by LLLI's professional liability insurance. If someone is concerned as to whether someone is a Leader, you can ask to see her Leader membership card.

As for (non-Leader) members, they are simply breastfeeding moms who have paid an annual membership fee. They are not governed by any code of conduct or under any obligation by LLLI to behave in any certain way. They also do not officially speak for LLL -- only an accredited Leader can do that. And she is supposed to follow strict guidelines when doing so. But all LLL Leaders are unpaid volunteers. Some are better at following the guidelines than others.

[Azuralea]

My local LLL leader called me back within THREE minutes after I called with a breastfeeding question. I was so impressed. She was nice, friendly, everything. I didn't end up going to the meeting, but goodness I appreciated the support when I needed it.

However, there are some pretty judgmental leaders out there, like all groups of people. I know people who have had very bad experiences, and it's not a friend of a friend thing, nor was it a "I'm looking for an excuse not to breastfeed" thing. Just plain bad behavior.

Also, among the people I know, the LLL's decision to hire Tricia Shore (who is very bigoted and anti-gay) for their anniversary celebration turned them off LLL permanently. I know that they canceled, but I know some moms who refuse to have anything to do with LLL because they think LLL is anti-gay.

Edited: The original link I found didn't work. I found a blog post talking about it, though. The blog post includes quotes from Tricia Shore. Wow. Some of the things she says are awful. I can't believe LLL hired her!