How to raise the thinking child - Page 2

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

I also think that, in order to raise thinking children, one needs to steer pretty clear of authoritarian behavior. My good friend wants her children to think for themselves (when they're with their friends), but then she wants them to do as they're told (when they're at home). Conflicting message, IMO.

This begs the question of how one raises a thinking a child, and one who is respectful of not just their parents, but everyone? I would expect my child not to hit, tease, name call, or otherwise disrespect or be mean to people at home and while out with friends. But on the other hand, I want to her to be free-thinking and able, and confident (!), enough to make decisions for herself.

If by authoritarian you mean treating your kids like little slaves - then I agree with you. My parents were like this - "go do the dishes", "go mow the grass", "bring me that book", etc. It was like we were there to serve them and it left us with little time to be kids, let alone think and learn and explore, it seemed. But even looking back I recognize that there was a difference between that and say, calling the neighbor kids names.

So I guess in a long winded way I'm saying that I agee and disagree with you. I think it's our responsibility as parents to raise respectful, mindful, objective, tolerant, compassionate, etc children as much as it is to raise thinking children.

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

If I was a 6yo boy and got teased by all my classmates for wearing pink shoes, I might think, "Why didn't Mom and Dad warn me?"

I don't know about that. When I was 6 and teased I just though the teaser's were mean and stupid. I wasn't resentful that my parents didn't warn me or protect me. I'm not sure that kind of thought process is typical at that age. As an adult, oh yeah! I get mad at my husband when we get home from dinner and learn I have food in my teeth and he didn't warn me. But at 6 when I was teased it just fueled my desire to conform, which meant my mom had to buy me cooler shoes... not necessarily "warn" me that my off brand k-mart pair might be considered uncool.

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

See, I don't like that technique. If someone did that to me when I asked a question, I would feel like I was being patronized. I also think that, a good amount of the time, the kid's theory (if there is one) is going to be wrong. It's human nature that we don't like to be wrong. Being wrong often makes us feel stupid. If a child learns that asking questions leads to feeling stupid, then they may be discouraged from asking questions.

I agree. I can't stand it when people answer me with a rhetorical questions, especially when I'm genuinely interested in knowing something. The self consciousness that washes over me when faced with mustering up the correct answer causes me to loose all desire in knowing. I usually end up replying with a "never mind".

But, if someone said to me.. "you know, that's a good question, there are several theories..." and then gives me an opportunity to share my theory while also answering my question, I think that's different. And for the purpose of encouraging children to speak up and voice their opinions/thoughts/theories, I think that's a much more productive route. I don't think using rhetorical questions is an effective communication technique.

Right now we are still all about problem solving and exploring, which we encourage, and baring and safety issues, we fully allow. DD isn't verbal yet, so the way we get her thinking is in her physical environment. Obviously we talk to her, but at this age I think it's all in how she's able to explore and learn from her environment. Ie - she doesn't want to let me change her clothes, she runs around naked. When she gets cold she grabs a blanket I take that as my cue to ask her if she's ready to put some clothes on. By that point she's usually happy to let me dress her. Even at this age I can tell that letting her figure things out on her own reduces the power struggles while also letting her figure out that gee, no clothes means you freeze.

[goodcents]

I also find pink satin shoes in public to be inappropriate wear for a 6yo boy.

Why?

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by goodcents

Why?

I am curious too, but I think it has less to do raising a thinking child and more to do with assumed gender roles in our society. I remember a thread a while back about about someone buying a pink car seat thinking they were having a girl, but then ended up with a boy, and so they wanted to return the seat to get a "boy colour". It was a very enlightening discussion about how we thrust gender roles upon children when they're at an age when gender roles don't, and shouldn't, matter.

I wouldn't care if my son wanted to wear pink party shoes. I think letting him make that decision for himself is pivotal to this very discussion. It confuses me how free thinking can exclude the colour of clothes our children want to wear.

[lisac77]

My parents raised a bunch of critical thinkers, even though we were raised in a fairly authoritarian household. We were expected to be obedient, it was something that was stressed and we got punished if we weren't.

However, my parents also pushed us to use our own sense of judgment rather than just handing us the answer to a problem. I think this is something that really helped us develop critical thinking skills, although at the time it seemed like we were being put-upon, but now looking back on it I think they were doing us a favor. They were forcing us to find our own paths and justifications for our actions. And we were also responsible for the outcome (negative or positive) from those actions.

Contrast this with my husband, who had things handed to him most of his life. When he had a question they gave him pat (and often wrong) answers and I'm guessing there was some sort of punishment (this may not have been intentional on his mother's part) for questioning things and going against the grain. This has resulted in an adult who has a very rigid way of thinking and reasoning, can't make decisions easily on his own, and cannot live with the outcome of his decisions, especially if the outcome is not what he expected.

So I think an important part of creating critical thinkers is giving them a chance to use their skills! And of course you have to model critical thinking for them.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by goodcents

Homeschooling isn't an option at the moment, in part because I am a SAHM, and in part because I am not confident I could do it.

Thoughts?

Trust me, Goodcents, you can homeschool.
Teaching is NOT rocket science; as a matter of fact, education majors tend to (as a general rule) score in the lowest quartile of standardized tests. Moreover, no teacher alive knows your kids like you do.

Honestly, if you want them to think independently, do these two things:

1. Homeschool
2. Unplug the television.

[Dar]

Well, I agree about homeschooling... although I don't think it's the only way. Guerilla Learning is a great book for parents who school and also want to raise thinking kids.

We like TV here - we have interesting discussion about everything from The Simpsons references to an odd show about British men and their Real Dolls (you don't want to know).

I personally would definitely tell my 6 year old boy about the responses he might get if he wore pink ballet shoes in public. I wouldn't forbid it, of course, but I'd make sure he had the data he needed to make an informed decision.

Really, I think it's important to talk with children, ask for their opinions, listen as they explain, ask clarifying and/or probing questions, and give honest feedback. That goes a long way...

Dar

[mamarhu]

From age 4 through 8, YoungSon's favorite item of clothing was an embroidered, floral vest in pink and turquoise, and in fact, he still has it (at 11 it's a little small!). He was in public school then and wore it nearly daily. I don't know if he was ever teased; he never mentioned it. I loved the vest, and in fact sort of miss it.:

It has been said above, but it bears repeating - asking thought provoking questions, modeling critical thinking skills, and giving kids decision making power in their own lives will teach thinking skills. When I am faced with a decision, I often talk over my thought processes with my kids - partly to get their input, but also to let them watch how I arrive at a decision.

I think this is working in my family. I see my kids approaching problems from novel angles, but some of this may be unschooling - they don't really have a choice of conforming to an arbitrary set of standards, so they are forced to come up with their own ideas.

[LauraLoo]

Originally Posted by lisac77

However, my parents also pushed us to use our own sense of judgment rather than just handing us the answer to a problem. I think this is something that really helped us develop critical thinking skills, although at the time it seemed like we were being put-upon, but now looking back on it I think they were doing us a favor. They were forcing us to find our own paths and justifications for our actions. And we were also responsible for the outcome (negative or positive) from those actions.

Contrast this with my husband, who had things handed to him most of his life. When he had a question they gave him pat (and often wrong) answers and I'm guessing there was some sort of punishment (this may not have been intentional on his mother's part) for questioning things and going against the grain. This has resulted in an adult who has a very rigid way of thinking and reasoning, can't make decisions easily on his own, and cannot live with the outcome of his decisions, especially if the outcome is not what he expected.

So I think an important part of creating critical thinkers is giving them a chance to use their skills! And of course you have to model critical thinking for them.

I think this is a great example.

As far as rhetorical questions, yeah, I can see why that would bother some people. It doesn't seem to bother my son because his personal theory isn't ever "wrong" - or at least I don't shout out "That's WRONG!" even when it is. But I can ask him why he thinks that and where we could go to find out/test out/etc. what he's thinking about. It's actually pretty fun to do together. I find that it has encouraged him to ask deeper questions rather than to just expect an answer. I don't even have all the answers to the questions that he's asking, so it gets me off the hook as well.

[staceychev]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

Teaching is NOT rocket science; as a matter of fact, education majors tend to (as a general rule) score in the lowest quartile of standardized tests.

Sigh. Maybe it's just 6 am, maybe it's that I'm about to drive 3 hours for the second day of my incredibly exhausting "Teaching Shakespeare Institute," but I have to respond to this. While the statistic that Meg quoted is technically true, I feel that by telling Goodcents that she can homeschool by essentially saying "Teachers aren't very bright" isn't overly helpful (or nice to the teachers on the board). In defense of teaching, the profession is working hard to try to bring in more new teachers from various educations and backgrounds, and I've met some amazing and brilliant people since switching to this career several yeas ago. Supporting the idea that teaching is for "those who can't" really hinders this effort and perpetuates the idea in the general public that teachers are lazy or glorified babysitters. Whether or not you think homeschooling is a good idea (and, guess what? I, a public high school teacher, do think it's wonderful), the fact is that public/private schooling is good for our nation, at the very least because not everyone is in a position to homeschool.

That being said, Goodcents, I bet you could homeschool too. Love and intent go a long way to bridging the gap between can't and can.

Sorry for the rant.

[2tadpoles]

Okay, let me clarify about the pink shoes.

Society has certain expectations, no? If one does not care about being accepted, socially, then by all means....wear whatever strikes your fancy. That includes underwear in public, I should think.

If you would not do your grocery shopping in a two piece bathing suit; if you would not wear a tuxedo to a baseball game; if you would not mow the lawn in your underwear....ask yourself why.

When you figure out the reason, it's likely the same reason I would prefer that my (hypothetical) 6yo boy not wear pink party shoes to the playground. There is a time and a place for certain types of dress. That's just MHO and feel free to disagree with it. I believe that being a non-comformist solely for non-comformity's sake is nothing more than a type of chip on the shoulder.

As for unplugging the TV....my kids are homeschooled and they learn a lot from the Discovery Channel, the History Channel, A&E, Animal Planet, National Geographic, and (for my budding chef) the Food Network. Television gives them a way to see parts of the world they might never see. It exposes them to different ways of living and thinking, and sparks some interesting conversations.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

I believe that being a non-comformist solely for non-comformity's sake is nothing more than a type of chip on the shoulder.

But a 6 year old boy does not choose to wear pink party shoes because he has a chip on his shoulder. He wants to wear pink part shoes because he wants to wear pink party shoes. That's it. That's beauty of being completely untainted by society's expectations. I think it is when WE, as parents, start imposing those expectations upon a child that we start going in the opposite direction of free/critical thinking.

Someone above mentioned prevention, but I think damage control is more effective. We can't prevent our children from feeling hurt, embarrassed, etc. We can, however, give them the tools to DEAL with those things, because no matter how much you conform to societies expectations you're still going to experience them at some point.

For our family the very core of raising a child who can think for themselves is allowing her to make decisions she's comfortable with. She has to find her own comfort zone in life, and she has to learn to live with the decisions she makes. She can't do that if I decide for her what's appropriate and what's not.

[Dar]

Hmmm. I'm not sure being "completely untainted by society's expectations" is something I would aspire to, personally. It kind of has that "noble savage" feel to it. Man is a social animal; we live in societies. Being unaware of cultural expectations is not a good idea, generally speaking. Society's expectations are what prevent a 6 year old boy from taking a whiz in the middle of the grocery store, for example, or walking up to a strange woman in a restaurant and taking a slurp of her coffee. I don't see information about societal expectations as tainting, but as giving children power. There's a big difference between understanding what responses an action might engender and feeling that, because of those potential responses, you're not free to take that action.

Dar

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

But a 6 year old boy does not choose to wear pink party shoes because he has a chip on his shoulder.

Of course not.

But the parent who says "My son is going to wear pink party shoes because he can," might have a chip.

That's beauty of being completely untainted by society's expectations. I think it is when WE, as parents, start imposing those expectations upon a child that we start going in the opposite direction of free/critical thinking.

I think that children need guidance. If there are no expectations, how will we know how to guide them?

Someone above mentioned prevention, but I think damage control is more effective. We can't prevent our children from feeling hurt, embarrassed, etc. We can, however, give them the tools to DEAL with those things, because no matter how much you conform to societies expectations you're still going to experience them at some point.

There's that old saying about an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.

Of course we need the cures, too. Of course we can't protect our kids from everything. But if we have the power/ability to protect them from some things, should we not?

For our family the very core of raising a child who can think for themselves is allowing her to make decisions she's comfortable with. She has to find her own comfort zone in life, and she has to learn to live with the decisions she makes. She can't do that if I decide for her what's appropriate and what's not.

Once again, there's the issue of making an informed decision. I think that giving children the necessary information for making a thoughtful, informed decision is preferable to throwing them to the wolves. If they still choose poorly, then they have to deal with the consequences.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by Dar

Hmmm. I'm not sure being "completely untainted by society's expectations" is something I would aspire to, personally. It kind of has that "noble savage" feel to it. Man is a social animal; we live in societies. Being unaware of cultural expectations is not a good idea, generally speaking. Society's expectations are what prevent a 6 year old boy from taking a whiz in the middle of the grocery store, for example, or walking up to a strange woman in a restaurant and taking a slurp of her coffee. I don't see information about societal expectations as tainting, but as giving children power. There's a big difference between understanding what responses an action might engender and feeling that, because of those potential responses, you're not free to take that action.

Dar

I suppose my post kind of sounded that way, but that's not really what I meant. I very much agree with you, but my comment about being untainted by society's expectations was in regards to having a chip on ones shoulder when being an unconformist for the sake of being an unconformist. Children don't go against the grain because they want to be radical, they do it because they like the colour pink, or the sparkley sequins, or what ever. You know?

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

Once again, there's the issue of making an informed decision. I think that giving children the necessary information for making a thoughtful, informed decision is preferable to throwing them to the wolves. If they still choose poorly, then they have to deal with the consequences.

I agree.

The day my (hypothetical) 6 year old boy wants to wear pink party shoes, we'll have that kind of conversation.

[LauraLoo]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

The day my (hypothetical) 6 year old boy wants to wear pink party shoes, we'll have that kind of conversation.

And here's the thing - I've been encouraging my dc's to make choices that are age appropriate for them for as long as they were able to make such decisions. My 6 year old ds would definitely understand what would be in store for him if he wore pink satin shoes in public. So, at this point, I'd be comfortable if that's what he wanted to wear. Actually, we've never had many conversations about "appropriate" attire because he has assimilated the cultural norms. He's very observant. But my idea about appropriate isn't color based, it's more about dressing for the weather. If it was imperative that he look nice for an event, I gave choices for outfits, but I really tried to keep this to a minimum. Ultimately, he has to live with his decisions and the consequences. I would never throw my dc to the wolves, but I do respect his decisions. I seriously doubt that he would choose pink shoes, although he did go through a stage when he was 3 or 4 where pink was his favorite color.

This is somewhat along the same lines, but slightly different. If you ask your child to make their bed and they do, but not perfectly like you would, the worst thing you can do IMHO is to go and make their bed up "right." The child learns that they aren't living up to your expectations and that you'll just come around and fix it anyway. That, again, defeats motivation for initiative and independence.