Vaccines - Trying to decide what to do...

[luminesce]

My son is a little over 3 months old. So far, he has had not been vax'd. I'm trying to figure out what to do after seeing our Ped this past week.

I know we're not getting Hep B, Hep A, Varicella or Prevnar ever.
I'm thinking of delaying Polio until he is old enough to decide himself (since it is relatively safe)
I'm thinking of separating and delaying MMR until school age (funny thing about this one is that I was vax'd and my Rubella titers are not high enough.)
I'm on the fence now about HiB and when.
I'm on the fence now about DTaP and when.

Our ped wasn't concerned at all about us ever getting MMR, Chickenpox or HepA. He said HepB could wait until he was old enough to decide himself. He didn't mention Prevnar so I don't think he cared about that one either. He urged us to think about Hib (safe and prevents a bad disease), DTaP (because of the growing cases of Pertussis and several cases he has seen lately in unvaxed kids who ended up on respiratory support in the hospital for a while) and Polio (because it is safe and there were a few rare exposures in the US.)

The Polio can wait until he is older. The other two seem to make *some* sense to me - if only DTaP weren't the evil, awful reactionary vax... plus, I know that immunity isn't given until all the shots are given by six months. Of course, if I don't get them, then he'll be a moving target for Pertussis in that vulnerable 6-12 month window.

Argh. I really hate having to make these decisions for this itty bitty baby that I love. I'd kick myself in the rear if he got Pertussis or HiB. But, I'll kick myself in the rear if I get them and he has a reaction - or some long-term residual effect.

A few factors on the emotional side: I had what I think was invasive HiB as a six month old. I had epiglottitis and nearly died. I was poked and prodded in the hospital for a while. I also have Multiple Sclerosis and part of me wonders if all the mercury in the vax's I got could have contributed. Of course, with mercury being (supposedly) gone from the shots now I can relax a little, but I also know there is aluminum and other crap in them. We also had a cat who got an evil, fast-growing cancer (fibrosarcoma) from the adjuvent in the rabies vaccine so I know reactions to the crap they put in vaccines do happen first-hand. And lastly, all of my family is totally mainstream and have had all their kids fully vax'd on schedule with no problems.

Ugh. I'm so uncomfortable making a decision either way. I've read way too much stuff from both sides of the fence and it isn't clear to me where I fall. I think there is good evidence from both sides.

* I think that vaccines have lowered the incidence of diseases and offer protection. (I have a hard time understanding why things like Smallpox and Polio pretty much don't exist anymore other than vaccinations.)
* I think that vaccines have evil stuff in them at levels that are harmful.
* I don't trust the CDC or doctors to tell me the truth about reactions because I don't think they know themselves. The VAERS database is a joke.
* I don't think enough people are studying the effect of vaccines on our immune systems or the effect they have on natural immunity. (i.e. We're messing with Nature.)
* I don't think enough people are keeping a close eye on how vaccines affect contraction of other illnesses (in the same and different age groups that they are targeting.)

I think people on both sides of the argument fail to recognize valid points that each group has (and selectively choose studies to cite when making an argument.) And here I am (as usual) stuck in the middle with no comfortable decision in sight. Ugh.

I'm looking for personal experiences of the decision making process from anyone else who has been where I am...

[Deborah]

I'd do the research on the vax vs the disease on each of the vaxes you are considering. It is a fairly limited field, so it isn't an overwhelming amount of research.

Also research what you can do if your baby does get sick with one of these illnesses. Research what you can do to boost the immune system to prevent sickness.

When it comes to vaccines, knowledge is power. This may be why doctors do not hand out real information about vaxes. Get the insert for one of the vaxes and the official vaccine information sheet for the same vax. Compare the information offered. Is someone pushing ignorance? And concealing information? Decide for yourself.

Good luck, these are not easy decisions.

[mamadelbosque]

I'm basicly where you're at. The *only* things I'd ever consider are the DTaP and Polio vaxes - the rest they can get and no big deal really. HiB IMO isn't worth the risk. It does do a pretty good job of protecting against HIB, but really, most kids that did get it were just fine. We all obviously survived through infancy w/o a HIB shot and I know for sure that I only got polio, DT (mom refused the pertussis as it just scared her way too much), and MMR. If I could get a DT shot that didn't have mercury, I would probably seroiusly consider that oen. The pertusis bit though, just scares me (as it did my mom) way too much. I had a seizure when I was 6.5 that lasted for two days and put me in a coma for 10 - its a miracle that I'm alive today and doing just peachy fine (finally went off the meds when I found out I was preg...). So seizures run in my family at least, and pertussis just has way too many reactions along those lines. I just really don't want to risk that. And since all the DT shots have mercury, I'm skipping them.

So basicly that leaves me w/ possibly Polio. And I just don't see the risk from it. Polio cases were dissapearing long before the vax, and I personally believe people are still getting. Why don't we see them in the numbers? Because they re-classified it. Changed the very definition of polio - and renamed it meningitus. So, basicly I just really don't think it works all that well, especially not the IPV that we have in the US now (the old OPV did probably work - the only problem was that it actually caused polio in some people...). The fact that the original inventor of IPV disavowed it years later speaks volumes to me on its efficacy.

Anyhow, hope all that helps.

[alegna]

Okay. Deep breath. My first bit of advice is WAIT. Wait until you're 100% comfortable with your decision. You can always vax later. You can never take it back.

Then, as mentioned, research each and every disease and vaccine.

Why are you considering mumps and rubella? What do you know about those diseases?

good luck!

-Angela

[luminesce]

Originally Posted by alegna;

Why are you considering mumps and rubella? What do you know about those diseases?

I could probably skip this one too. I know that all three illnesses are usually benign in children but that Measles and Mumps can be more serious in adolescents and adults. My biggest worry with this one is the link to autism (and the general additives/effect of vaccines in general on the immune system.) so I figured when DS was older and his development was further along and his immune system was fully formed then I might consider giving him protection as a teen and adult. The only pro to having rubella immunity is to help prevent expsoure of pregnant women who have low titers (like me and I've refused the shot as an adult because of my own neurological disease.)

The more I think about it, I would probably lean toward just getting one for Measles. Maybe Mumps. And skipping Rubella.

I do think there is truth to the concept of "herd immunity" and to the claims that those who don't vaccinate are getting the benefit of diseases being rare but not willing to take the risk that others take to create the benefit. If everyone was afraid of vaccinations like I am - we'd probably still be dying of Smallpox.

Ultimately, I think the problem is that those of us who question vaccinations have a sincere and deep mistrust of the organizations who mandate them. If I can't trust anyone to tell me the truth then I am going to be afraid of what they are telling me to do. I think that they are afraid to acknowledge and study the real risks when it comes to reactions to vaccines because they are afraid people will stop getting them at the first sign of a problem (and the anti-vax groups would jump ALL over it.) And in that case, we honestly might be in worse trouble. But overall, that logic is ludicrous and the tactic is beginning to fail as more people lose their trust. They should be working to acknowledge and understand vaccine reactions, make the vaccinations safer and find ways to not include such neurotoxic additives (which are probably the elements responsible for most reactions.)

[luminesce]

Originally Posted by ergonyer

We all obviously survived through infancy w/o a HIB shot.

We pretty much sound the same except for HiB - and the reason I think I feel a bit differently about it is because I almost didn't survive infancy when I got epiglotittis. I also read somewhere that they think maybe some kids are more prone to getting invasive HiB infection (for reasons they don't understand.) So, I think - Could it be genetic? -- Could my son also be more prone to getting it like I was? -- Would the vaccine help prevent that?

But in the end, I can't help but feel we're all just throwing a dart because no one is working to tell us the truth about vaccine reactions or answer our questions.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by serenitii

If everyone was afraid of vaccinations like I am - we'd probably still be dying of Smallpox.

Highly unlikely. Smallpox is a particular disease. Since one is not contagious until AFTER clear symptoms are showing it could have easily been eliminated with quarantine programs. And that may well have been what eliminated it.

-Angela

[Yulia_R]

http://www.dark-truth.org/okt19-2006-2.html

this movie was an eyes' opener for my dh. In the middle of it he put it on pause and emailed the link to everyone who had kids, in the subject of the email he wrote "it'll blow your mind!". In the end of the movie he apologized to me for pushing vaccines on our first child (I was against of it). 'Never again' for our family!
I think it's a great movie to start you research with. It's an hour and a half long.
yulia.

[Yulia_R]

Originally Posted by ergonyer
We all obviously survived through infancy w/o a HIB shot.

And we still are surviving it now, aren't we. Most adults received no HIB vax and no one worries about it.

Originally Posted by serenitii

We pretty much sound the same except for HiB - and the reason I think I feel a bit differently about it is because I almost didn't survive infancy when I got epiglotittis. I also read somewhere that they think maybe some kids are more prone to getting invasive HiB infection (for reasons they don't understand.) So, I think - Could it be genetic? -- Could my son also be more prone to getting it like I was? -- Would the vaccine help prevent that?

Could it be that vaccines screwed up their immune system too much to resist the disease?..

[BeanyMama]

Originally Posted by serenitii

I think people on both sides of the argument fail to recognize valid points that each group has (and selectively choose studies to cite when making an argument.) And here I am (as usual) stuck in the middle with no comfortable decision in sight. Ugh.

I agree. dh and i were in agony trying to decide if and what and when with vaccines. it seems you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. the best thing you can do is gather all the info you can on both sides and make a decision when you feel comfortable with it. Which is what it sounds like you're doing

we ended up deciding on no vax for our kids and now I'm glad we agonized over it. Ha.

[freespirited]

Hib incidence reduced greatly parallel to rising breastfeeding rates. If your breastfeed, your child is much less likely to end up with this illness.

Personally I think most parents lean towards Dtap and Polio because they are the classic vaccines and it's easy to think your child doesn't need all the newer ones that your generation didn't have. For starters, the pertussis vax is quite ineffective. 70% max effectiveness after 3 doses. By the third dose, baby is 6 months old, which is the age they get out the danger zone for serious complications. It is also, as you know, one of the worst vaxes for adverse reactions. Tetanus is extremely rare and is preventable with proper wound care. The only deaths from tetanus are in the elderly, and there were about 2 deaths in a country of 300 million in a recent year. Diptheria is also extremely rare. The risk-to-benefit ratio unquestionable if you are look at the facts, but for many parents, there is a peace of mind they get from vaxing that figures into that equation, as though there were very little risk, short- or long-term associated with vaccinations. There is a "just in case" mentality. An "I couldn't live with myself if I didn't vax and my child got sick" mindset. I think many times the parent gives into the guilt factor. I just hope whatever you decide, you are doing it based on what you research has uncovered for you and not what your doctor thinks, because just as your doctor thinks only the dtap and polio are very necessary, my child's pedi said the opposite and brushed off the dtap and polio while pushing only the Hib and Prevnar. Really I don't see a need for polio. The polio cases your doctor may be referring to (and don't they seize an opportunity!), were NOT wild polio cases but cases of the vax polio virus that has evidently been circulating amongst people undetected even though the oral vax has been long discontinued in this country. Perhaps he is suggesting your child be vaxed for polio to protect against the vax-induced polio strain that, if it is circulating, has not been causing illness.

Research until you feel sure about vaxing or not vaxing. With not a lot of research you can become more knowledgeable than many, if not most, pedis.

[Proverbs31]

The only vaxes I have still gone back and forth about are the good old DTaP and IPOL.

DTaP simply isn't going to happen because I had a severe allergic reaction to a tetanus shot and I believe it may have been the DTaP that was causing ds' vax reactions, and he stil got whooping cough anyway. Diptheria is virually non-existant in the US and tetanus is extremely rare in children. I'm just not willing to risk another series of vaccine reactions in my future children, just for the possibility of avoiding those diseases.

IPOL is a hard one to let go of, even knowing full well that there hasn't been a case of wild polio in the US (nor most of the western hemisphere, for that matter) in decades. While I do worry about the slight chance of paralytic polio, mostly because it presents itself like any run-of-the-mill viral infection...I'm not comfortable with the unknown risks of injecting my kids with formaldehyde, sorbital, phenol, and unnecessary antibiotics. And then there is the ethical issue of being pro-life but benefiting from it by allowing them to be injected with fetal cell lines. If paralytic polio was currently circulating I might feel differently, but its not so that's what i have to work with.

[Yulia_R]

Originally Posted by Proverbs31

I'm not comfortable with the unknown risks of injecting my kids with formaldehyde, sorbital, phenol, and unnecessary antibiotics..

Aluminum
Mercury
Monosodium glucomate (MSG)
Formaldahyde
Ammonia
phenol/phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
Aborted human fetal tissue, gelatin, mouse brain, monkey kidney tissue culture and animal skin, cells and fertilized eggs

and here we go as a result of it...
http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html
vaccinated boys had a 155% greater chance of having a neurological disorder like ADHD or autism than unvaccinated boys...

[mountainsun]

[QUOTE]

We pretty much sound the same except for HiB - and the reason I think I feel a bit differently about it is because I almost didn't survive infancy when I got epiglotittis

Out of curiosity, were you bf? From what I found out researching Hib, bf reduces the risk of Hib to almost 0. BF should protect your babe.

I heard that polio was going to be taken off the schedule in the next few years because at thus point, the risk of contracting it is practically 0.

Measles is a fairly benign childhood disease as well.

Keep reading, mama. Follow your heart.

[luminesce]

Originally Posted by mountainsun

Out of curiosity, were you bf? From what I found out researching Hib, bf reduces the risk of Hib to almost 0. BF should protect your babe.
.

Unfortunately, no. My mom regrets it I think. But she was young and in a very non-supportive environment (and under a lot of stress at the time due to some things that were going on in her life.) So I'm sure being FF didn't contribute much to my immune system. Interestingly, I've also read that being BF for at least six months reduces the risk of Multiple Sclerosis - so, too bad for me... it might have helped.

I'm BF my DS (we've had a very challenging experience since I have insufficient glandular tissue and a chronic low supply.) I'm getting breast milk from a milk bank and supplementing somewhere between 4 and 8 oz a day -- but I figure I'm still giving him a pretty good amount of my own antibodies. I still sometimes worry that he isn't getting all he needs to eat. He is used to small meals and I think he is naturally a "snacker" - we nurse all day. Sometimes he falls asleep and won't even take the supplement that I have prepared even though I know I've only given him an ounce or two of my own milk (we have to do test weighs on and off.) He's gaining but pretty much the minimum acceptable amount. I wish he was one of the roly-poly chunky BF babies, but he's not and I ultimately worry that this means he isn't as nourished as well he could be and that it could make him more susceptible to illness. But -- it could be that he is just meant to be long and lean like his mama and papa were when they were kids!

[Deborah]

Some kids are light nursers.

I had a friend whose baby had to have major surgery at two or three days old due to a serious digestive problem. The surgery went well, she recovered just fine, but she was not a very enthusiastic nurser and, when the time came to start on solid food, she wasn't interested at all. Not surprisingly, she was a tiny little person. Her mom fixed a dish of solid food every day and offered it to her from 6 months to 18 months...at which point she finally decided to eat the stuff. After that she never looked back and has turned into a tall, gorgeous teenager.

Hang in there! And if your gut says don't vax, listen to it (and vice versa, too).

[mamakay]

The pros and cons of the DTaP seem pretty close to equal to me, so I don't know what to tell you there.
With Hib, there's not really a lot of the b strain floating around any more. There's still invasive Hi disease, but it's coming from strains not in the vax now. (number-wise, we're about back up to where we were before the Hib vax was introduced. I'll find a link on that if you want).
Also, not being in daycare and not being around smoke are things that reduce invasive Hib disease risk.
That said, it seems to be one of the safest vaxes, and only a couple of doses could "work" as well as the full series, if you decide to do it.

[luminesce]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Also, not being in daycare and not being around smoke are things that reduce invasive Hib disease risk.

No, I didn't mention it but I'm a WAHM, don't smoke and we really don't go out that much. DH is really our biggest route of exposure to bugs. Neither of us had been sick in a couple of years until we got a cold this year when DS was about six weeks old. DH felt the worse, I felt bad for a few days but DS just got a tiny bit sniffly and he always sounded better as soon as he nursed. Yay for BM!

[luminesce]

This is interesting:

http://www.drjaygordon.com/developme...ccoverview.asp

[mountainsun]

I'm BF my DS (we've had a very challenging experience since I have insufficient glandular tissue and a chronic low supply.) I'm getting breast milk from a milk bank and supplementing somewhere between 4 and 8 oz a day -- but I figure I'm still giving him a pretty good amount of my own antibodies

Wow! You are doing great!!

I was bf,but supp.with formula as well, according to my Mom, that's wehat the conventional wisdom was back then (mid-70s).