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Debate and inform me PLEASE: Are we still affected by Christian Patriarchy? - Page 3

post #41 of 98
please keep posting, i am finding this extremely interesting!

ruthla- what is it about wool and linen makes it wrong to wear them together? is this something that is still done? when i read that example it reminded me of the "never wear white after labor day and before memorial day" rule... is it similar to that, just a sign of respect? or is there more to it?
post #42 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog View Post
I killed it dead! :
I thought I had with my musings on matriarchal bisexuality...
post #43 of 98
Thread Starter 
OMG.... where did this thread go..... to space and beyond.....:

I understand my experience is different than any one else's, yet similar because we all live in America.... did not know Judeo-Christian offended anyone, that is the phrasing I hear and didn't know it was politically incorrect. I am not going to talk about patriarchy in the east, I have no experience of it.

I grew up in the Church and do not agree that patriarchy and oppression can not be blamed on Christianity.
1. Women are blamed for the "fall"
2. Pain in childbirth is a "curse"
3. Women's sexuality is "shameful" only holy virgin could give birth to the savior, nuns have to be chaste
4. All aspects of the trinity are referred to as male

This creeps into people's pysche, and women are treated as less than and in extreme cases with disgust. It has influenced prevalent secular thinking, too. I am confused how women, even if you are Christian and defending your faith, do not see the undertones and influences that subconsciously tell women they are less valuable.
post #44 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourgrtkidos View Post
I am confused how women, even if you are Christian and defending your faith, do not see the undertones and influences that subconsciously tell women they are less valuable.
Well, for starters, like several of us have commented, I do see patriarchy.

But I see it everywhere. I don't see the point in scapegoating Christianity (or Judaism for that matter) for something that is caused by and perpetuated by and influenced by:

-biology
-virtually every cultural tradition on the planet
-politics
-historical factors
-virtually every religion on the planet (see: cultural tradition)

Yes we are in a largely patriarchal culture. Yes, we are in a largely Christian culture. This does not mean that patriarchy is caused by Christianity. It does not mean that either "Christian" or "Judeo-Christian" is a accurate or fair way to describe the patriarchal aspects of our culture.

You haven't asked a religious question. You've asked a cultural question, presumed your answer, and then presumed to blame that answer on "Judeo-Christian culture" (whatever that means).

Your not being familiar with the East or with the patriarchal traditions of non-Christian aspects of culture does nto negate their importance or unfluence.

So, yeah, I think I'm outta here. Just not interested in validating the idea that every societal ill can be blamed solely on Christianity. Especially the ones that predate Christianity by thousand of years.
post #45 of 98
The reality is, though, that the U.S. was founded on Christian principles, so this idea that the OP is somehow "scapegoating" Christianity is a little bit silly, IMO.
post #46 of 98
Warning ... this is off-topic to the OP ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Orchid View Post
ruthla- what is it about wool and linen makes it wrong to wear them together? is this something that is still done? when i read that example it reminded me of the "never wear white after labor day and before memorial day" rule... is it similar to that, just a sign of respect? or is there more to it?

Not Ruthla, but in brief, what makes it wrong for Jews to wear wool and linen together is that Jews are commanded to not wear them together in the Torah. Period, end of sentence. It is a khok, a commandment for which no rational explanation can be found beyond the Divine imperative. And it's not wrong for anyone else. Only for Jews.



Yes, it's still done. The rules of shatnez are followed, and if you buy clothing in some areas of NYC you can find a "shatnez tested" label sewn inside, and some tailors in NYC will also do shatnez testing (checking the fabric for wool and linen) if you aren't sure about it. A lot of designer clothing is just plain not kosher.

Overview of the mitzva of shatnez.

Shatnez Testers of America website.
post #47 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post
I thought I had with my musings on matriarchal bisexuality...
Hmm could be, when I read that post I was like "I think that sound was all of MDC gasping and fanning itself, all at once!"
post #48 of 98
*
post #49 of 98
Yeah I think it's another thread. Point me to it and I'll give you my commentary there, rather than annoying the poor OP further.
post #50 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourgrtkidos View Post
I grew up in the Church and do not agree that patriarchy and oppression can not be blamed on Christianity.
1. Women are blamed for the "fall"
2. Pain in childbirth is a "curse"
3. Women's sexuality is "shameful" only holy virgin could give birth to the savior, nuns have to be chaste
4. All aspects of the trinity are referred to as male

This creeps into people's pysche, and women are treated as less than and in extreme cases with disgust.
It's an interpretive choice by the contemporary Church(es) to latch on to these aspects of Christianity. There are counter-texts and counter-traditions aplenty. You could also say, "Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman, man had nothing to do with him," (a quote from Sojourner Truth) and that could be the dominant interpretation.

There are people who argue that the tradition of nuns celibacy is a method of avoiding compulsory heterosexuality. The problem isn't that nuns are celibate--it's that they don't get to create canon law.

In Judaism we have similar counter-traditions--mystical interpretations of God that include feminine aspects, for example. The reason that we don't have a dominant feminist interpretation is that men hold all the power of interpretation!

It's not the texts that are the problem, I think, but who gets to interpret them.
post #51 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post
I have some thoughts there...and I don't think it's an omission from lack of considering women, I think it's an omission based on ideas about defining sex, creating clear-cut catagories, and here we go! patriarchy.

To expand that thought, I think all those multiply-wived desert families had lots of wives seeking all kinds of comfort from each other when it wasn't their turn with the patriarch. I think midwifery and birth-help and labor companionship ARE inherently sexual--but woman-to-woman. I think that to the writers of the Bible, lesbianism was a woman's mystery that did not negatively affect the social order, and in fact enhanced it.

(preparing to be flamed in a zillion different ways : )
post #52 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post
Ahem...still awaiting your opinion...ahem....

yeah, I figure if I get a chance to piss of the religous communities and the LGBT communities (ETA: and the UC-ers, and the Bradley "husband-coached birth" people") all at once, why not go for it?

Hm, probabl shoulda' started a different thread...
LOL......

On another subject:
It is funny and amazing to me that people can not discuss something, without getting their "panties in a wad"
For Gods sake, I asked to be INFORMED, I put up NO PRETENSE of knowing much of anything about this subject and poised the question from MY EXPERIENCE, and NEVER said I had THE answer........ IMHO, their are many truths because everyone's experience has been different,
Geesh, "put on your big girl underwear" stop throwing tantrums and leaving the thread just because others do not agree with everything you say..... That IS what a discussion is all about, different OPINIONS!

I ASKED TO BE INFORMED: so, what IS the question I should be asking? In your opinion, since I keep beng told my OP is INVALID?
post #53 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain optimism View Post

In Judaism we have similar counter-traditions--mystical interpretations of God that include feminine aspects, for example. The reason that we don't have a dominant feminist interpretation is that men hold all the power of interpretation!

It's not the texts that are the problem, I think, but who gets to interpret them.
Yes, I get this.......
post #54 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post
I have some thoughts there...and I don't think it's an omission from lack of considering women, I think it's an omission based on ideas about defining sex, creating clear-cut catagories, and here we go! patriarchy.

To expand that thought, I think all those multiply-wived desert families had lots of wives seeking all kinds of comfort from each other when it wasn't their turn with the patriarch. I think midwifery and birth-help and labor companionship ARE inherently sexual--but woman-to-woman. I think that to the writers of the Bible, lesbianism was a woman's mystery that did not negatively affect the social order, and in fact enhanced it.

(preparing to be flamed in a zillion different ways : )
I actually really get this too, I have decided this would be an easier way to live. I see how the working order of a household would work better and easier with many wives, and to tell you the truth I'd like the female company......

I don't see how the writers of the bible thought women's mysteries or lesbianism enhanced the social order tough.
post #55 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourgrtkidos View Post
I don't see how the writers of the bible thought women's mysteries or lesbianism enhanced the social order tough.
Keep 'em busy with those Lifetime specials, and making placenta-prints and they won't get designs on usurping make power.
post #56 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourgrtkidos View Post
Geesh, "put on your big girl underwear" stop throwing tantrums and leaving the thread just because others do not agree with everything you say..... That IS what a discussion is all about, different OPINIONS!

I ASKED TO BE INFORMED: so, what IS the question I should be asking? In your opinion, since I keep beng told my OP is INVALID?
Can we keep my panties out of this please? I don't even wear the darned things.

I just don't enjoy the "yes it is/no it isn't/yes it is/no it isn't" type of discussion. I don't want to spend a lot of time trying to show that patriarchy is biological and cultural, not religious. I don't want to spend a lot of time trying to show how Christianity and Judaism are not anti-women. It is just nt interesting to me.

On a personal note, my reluctance doesn't come from annoyance with you, as you seem to think it does, but form my own life: I'm an ex-Orthodox Jew, now a Catholic. I don't feel confident debating Catholicism yet--I'm to much of a noob. And I don't feel totally comfy discussing Judaism either since a--there are lots of Jewish women on this board who are currently practicing and b--I've felt the flames before for being a bit too straightforward on my thouhts about some aspects of Judaism.

So, where it's seemly for me to speak, I'm incompetant and uncomfortable, and where I'm competant, it is a bit unseemly.

Srry to get long-winded aobut my personal history, but you seem to think I have a problem with you. I don't. I just have some personal weirdness that prevents me from participating furhter in some aspects of this thread. Figured it was polite to say so instead of just disappearing.
post #57 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post
Can we keep my panties out of this please? I don't even wear the darned things.

.... you seem to think I have a problem with you. I don't. I just have some personal weirdness that prevents me from participating furhter in some aspects of this thread. Figured it was polite to say so instead of just disappearing.
Thank you for saying so. I was taking it personally; I should not have and apologize. I should know better than to start these discussions, they always end up in wierd "tones" that get taken badly.......
Hope you have a great day.
post #58 of 98
:
post #59 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourgrtkidos View Post

These authors seem to think that there are a few individual men that see themselves as superior to women but that in general, women are now elavated as equals and not oppressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourgrtkidos View Post

I am wondering, if I live with my head in the sand and have missed the revolution, because this is not my experience.:

I will never feel that women are equal until the ERA passes, we have an equal number of women in congress, have had at least one female president, and have seen womens sports achieve the same status as mens sports. I will not feel that women are equal until we have abolished the words bitch and whore being used to refer to women. I will not feel we have achieved equality until women are no longer being raped as a spoil of war in any country. And seriously, can anyone really think we have achieved equality when so many devalue stay at home moms?
post #60 of 98
I'm not sure if this is pertinent, but I love the quote from Ann Lee, the female founder of the Shakers, saying, "As long as we have all male gods in heaven, we will have all male gods on earth."

I don't think Christianity or any other religion is to blame for patriarchy (it's too widespread and deeply ingrained) but I DO think Christianity feeds into it and reinforces it in a significant way.

Just for the record, I'm speaking as a Christian feminist.
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