Originally Posted by Breathe
Ahem . . . [dummy entering the room] . . . would one of you have time/energy to jot down a quick tutorial on why it is you take so much C? And why the formulation is so critical? Do you or your dcs have health issues you're working on, or this all in the name of prevention? We have some health issues and we take loads-o-supplements, but I've never thought too much about C . . .
I don't know how much is in the archives. I think much of what we discussed in the past is related to pertussis.
To find out why we discuss that, do an advanced search and put into the subject pertussis AND ascorbate and look at that.
|MT, I've not come across you before, so I'm not sure what your background is -- you seem like you must be a naturopath or a supplement guru! Would you mind filling me in?
... Me? no. Just a nutter.
The key to really good health isn't so much vitamins as minerals, but vitamin C is crucial to minerals so it comes higher on my list than the others.
My order of priority is Vitamin C + minerals, then the rest of the vitamins. Preferably in organic food, but because of the reality below, we have to use supplements at times:
|Daily Mail, March 5, 2001
FRUIT and vegetables are not as good for us as they were 50 years ago according to a scientific study. Modem farming methods mean that the amount of essential minerals In the food we eat has been reduced alarmingly. There is up to 75 per cent less calcium and 93 per cent less copper . In fruit and vegetables, the study says. Runner beans which used to contain a significant amount of sodium - vital for the working of the nerves and muscles - now have almost no traces of it at all.
The levels of other important minerals such as iron, phosphorous, potassium and magnesium have also plummeted. Nutritionist David Thomas said he was 'astonished' by his flndlngs. 'Minerals have been recognised as being very important to our physiology, but the general public has no idea that there has been this dramatic decline in the levels of such elements in our food,' he said. His research allowed that broccoli has 75 per cent less calcium, which is essential for building healthy body and teeth. Carrots have 75 per cent less magnesium, which protects against heart attacks, asthma and kidney stones.
Spinach, famous as a good source of iron, was found to have 60 per C less iron than it did 50 years ago. Mr Thomas said he believed the reduction in the mineral content in food was a result of modern farm methods which use massive amounts of fertiliser on the soil. The fertilisers encourage ph growth, but this Is at the expense of the minerals which are Important for good health. Mr Thomas said: 'We are made up of these substances. If they're deficient then the body cannot cope as well as It would otherwise.'
He based his conclusions on data from The Composition of Foods, a comprehensive study of the content of all major foods dating back to 1940. By comparing figures over a 50-year period he was able to plot certain trends. A similar analysis, comparing data from 1930 and 1980, was published in the British Food Journal in 1997. It compared 20 vegetables and found levels of calcium, iron and other minerals had declined significantly.
Professor Tim Lang, of the renowned Centre for Food Policy at Thames Valley University, said the results revealed an important trend which needed to be exposed. 'These are big percentages,' he said. 'The nature of production is altering what we are eating. Plant breeders have been trying to develop tomatoes and carrots and fruit that look nice, resist disease and can withstand being shipped halfway around the world.
'They have been less concerned about the minerals in the food. 'We are dying prematurely of coronary heart disease and cancer and we are being told to cut down on fat and eat more fruit and vegetables. But at the same time they are changing the content of what we are eating.' Mr Thomas runs a company called Trace Minerals UK, based in Sussex, which distributes a mineral supplement called ConcenTrace.
Professor Lang said that despite his commercial interest, Mr Thomas had carried out a legitimate piece of research.
|I *thought* I was pretty savvy when it comes to supplements, but I am suddenly feeling very dumm.
If this is too simple for this thread, redirect me and I'll search further. THX!
Okay, so you want a vitamin C 101.
Here's a tome for you. There may be URL duplication, but I'm too tired to figure it out.
It depends what you are looking at Vitamin C for.
Vitamin C is NOT just a vitamin, to be considered at 60mg a day to "prevent" scurvy. That is a load of bunk.
Vitamin C does many things. Here are just a few.
Collagen: It's the "foundation stone" for the development of every piece of collagen in your body, and think how many that is. In other words, every cell wall you possess.
Iron absorption. Without vitamin C, you might as well not eat iron.
Toxin Neutralisation: According to old medical literature works really well for diphtheria, whooping cough, Tetanus, spider bites snake bites and polio (Along with a couple other things) , though the action for polio may not have anything to do with the polio, but everything to do with toxic co-factors.
And a whole lot of other stuff... here is some basic starting points and other guff,... so that you can research it yourself.
This guy has some things wrong, but in general the gist is okay...http://science.howstuffworks.com/vit....htm/printable
IMMUNE FUNCTION CHANGES IN DOWNHILL RUNNING SUBJECTS FOLLOWING ASCORBIC ACID SUPPLEMENTATION (PDF)http://www.isei.de/Literature/abstr2001.pdf
A narrow view, and dictionary swallower:http://www.nap.edu/books/0309069351/html/95.html
The Healing Factor, Vitamin C against Disease, by Irwin Stone, Perigree Books, NY, 1982, ISBN 0-399-50763-7. Nearly 50 pages are medical references.
Vitamin C, Nature's Miraculous Healing Missile by Dr Glen Dettman, Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Dr Ian Dettman. 1993, Pub: Frederick Todd, Melbourne.
Perhaps the most scientific and scholastic (and hugely expensive) trilogy I own is a 3 volume set called "Vitamin C" By C. Alan B Clemetson (who was a medical professor...) Pub 1989, CRC Press. ISBN numbers. Volume 1 0-8493-4841-2, Volume 2 0-8493-4842-0, Volume 3: 0-8493-4842-9.
For a lifetime of clinical application with results unobtainable with any other methods, then "Medical Pioneer of the 20th Century by Archie Kalokerinos is compulsory reading.Pub: 2000.Biological Therpies Publishing Pty Ltd, ISBN 0-646-40852-6
A doctor who does cancer research in Auckland Medical school, who cured his leukemia with Vitamin C and iscadore (because he didn't have insurance to have conventional treatment immediately) looked at the role of Vitamin C in the immune system, in particular, macrophages. He found that macrophages were vitamin C dependant, and literally ran out of gas, once the Vitamin C was no longer present. When presented with more, they started up again. He sent me a letter saying that based on his research, which was never published of course, he would have to upgrade the basic RDA of Vitamin C to 1,000 mgs a day - solely on the basis of macrophage activity, but that he did not know if any other part of the immune system was also Vitamin C dependant.
I suspect other parts are, which is why for me a basic dose of 5,000 mgs for me, fulfills my biochemical individuality. But only under normal circumstances. When I get sick, my needs climbs rapidly.
The next area we have to consider are other functions of Vitamin C which were not part of this study, since the laboratory only looked at one thing, which is like looking at one leaf on a huge tree and thinking that might represent the A - Z's of the issue.
I have so many brilliant studies on Vitamin C it is hard to know where to start. But let me just discuss three. In the Journal of International Academy of Prevention of Medicine, 1978, Volume 5, Pages 54-59, Drs Fukumi Morishige and Akira Murata, detailed a study in which they divided people who had to have blood transfusions into two groups. No patients received immunoglobin...This study went from 1967 - 1976. Over 9 years, one group who received blood received between 2,000 - 6,000 mgs of Vitamin C a day, after transfusions . The second group received 1 gram or less. The rate of Hepatitis B in the first group was 0.2% and in the second group was 7%, and the study was halted, because the Japanese Medical ethics people considered that it was essential that all patients were given high doses of vitamin C following transfusions.
The study concluded that Vitamin C given in large amounts has a significant prophylactic effect against post-transfusion hepatitis, especially type B.
Now, think of all the USA people who could have escaped Hepatitis B if the American medical people had known about that.
The second one is a study on the effect of ascorbic Acid in the treatment of Tetanus. This was bulished in the Bangladesh Medical Research Council Bulletin, June 1984, Volume X, No. 1. Authors K. Jahan et al. They did two concurrent studies. One using chicken which were divided into four groups of 15 birds each. Birds in group one got 5 nanograms of strychnine sulphate only, group two got 30 mgs Vitramin C 10 minutes before the same dose of strychnine. Group 3 got 10 nanograms of strychnine, and group four again, 30 mgs Vitamin C then 10 nanograms of strychnine.
the patients with tetanus were divided into three groups. On, aged 1 - 12 years, who received 1000 mg Vit C in addition to conventioal antitetanus therapy, which the control group received. The second group was 13 - 30 years, and they also got 1,000 mg of Vit C in addition to conventional treatment. Why on earth they used such a low dose for the older ones, goodness only knows, because a bigger body needs a bigger dose. But, never mind. the results were that the conventional group of 1 - 12 yr olds had a 74.2 percent mortality rate - the 12 - 30 year olds had a 67.8% mortality rate. In the Vitamin C treated group, the 1 - 12 yr group have 0% mortality, and the 13 - 30 yr group had a 37 % mortality.
The results of the chicken study. In group one, the wings of all birds stretched, Some walked on toes, others kept jumping and could not walk.
Group 2 - no symptoms.
Groups 3 Extensor paralysis of legs, opisthotonus, and severe convulsions. All but three died.
Group 4. Extensor paralysis in 3 chicks. No neurological symptoms in others. The affected birds recovered in about 30 minutes after the appearance of the symptoms.
I have discussed these two studies with "experts" here, who have read little or nothing on Vitamin C, and their response to the Japanese one was silence. The unfortunate and unguarded response to the Bangladesh was was laughter and the comment "What would they know, there..."
the third study is Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 1997; 51: 479 - 485, page 479 - 485. called "Dietary Vitamin C and bone mineral density in post menopausal women in Washington State, USA. Suzanne G Leveille, et al.
Quote. "Conclusion: there was no evidence that vitamin C from the diet was associated with BMD, although long term use of vitamin C supplement was associated with a higher BMD in the early postmenopausal years and among never users of oestrogen."
So obviously, vitamin C has an influence here, as well, though they made no attempt to figure it out.
To try to bring a whole lot of thoughts together here, bearing in mind it has taken Clemetson 3 volumes to do that, the body has many uses for vitamin C. I know I would not be in one piece today without it.
One is detoxification. Vitamin C can be used to great effect in any toxin mediated diseases - according to the early medical literature, and clinical trials on humans. It can also be used to good effect on venoms of many kinds.
I will give you two examples, which happened on seperate occasions, to children in my care, both involving other people's boys. Both boys were highly allergic to bees. We were way out in the country, about 2 hours from the nearest acute medical facility. And the car of this child's mother had broken down. I never travel anywhere with children, without a first aid kit. Even today. and it always has sodium ascorbate (Vit C) powder in it. The first little boy, called Andre, was 4. He got stung, and his mother went hysterical, (even though I scraped away the sting with a knife blade straight away), because according to his medical alert bracelet, he now had 20 minutes to live. Someone fled for help to the nearest telephone, which was that long away. During that time, I pumped that child with Vitamin C, until he was more than full. I also used ledum tincture, not because I know it works, becuase I don't - but becuase it made me feel better. Anyway. The father arrived, having broken every speed limit in the world, and his front fender, expecting to find a corpse. What he found was a little boy who now had a dose of Montezumas revenge, and had been to the "loo" three times. A good sign, that I was way over his maximum dose. But when there is toxin there, I ignore the C-stix. I don't know how much the body is using, so I just pour it in, then back off slightly when the diarrhoea starts. So, four hours after the sting, he was at A & E, with his parents been given the third degree for ostensibly previously "lying", even though it was there in their records from the last occasion. Andre's parents continued the Vitamin C treatment using urinary spill-over to gauge his needs until the swelling had gone.
The second occasion was a boy of 11. He got stung about 5 years later in similar circumstances, except there was a car that worked, but was a little less co-operative than Andre. I could only get 10 1,000 Acerola flavoured tablets into him in the first hour, before he rebelled. He had a slightly longer "critical" time of just over an hour, according to his mother. They got to the hospital three hours after the sting, and were discharged without treatment, but two hours after that, the boy started having bronchospasm, so the mother rang me to ask "why it hadn't worked", to which I replied, becuase his body has used it up, and he wouldn't take any more. The mother tested his urine, and there was no spill-over. The child refused to take more, and landed up in hospital for conventional treatment.
So that's our only personal experience of Vitamin C with Bee stings in highly allergic children.
But there was an interesting other case I was involved with, which involved a hospital bun-fight. A little girl we knew, had contracted Kawasaki Disease. This is an interesting disease, which no-one "knows" how it starts. They "think" it might be dust-mites. They haven't identified the culprit either. I have my own theories on how and why it started, but won't go into that here. But again, I consulted Archie, who had treated Kawasaki disease with Vitamin C with good results. He faxed me over a swag of stuff. So I went to hospital with it all. The parents were desperate, because this little girl was going down-hill, and had been for nearly a week.
I arrived un-noticed, and the parents being reluctant to try Vitamin C without the paediatrician's permission, we made an appointment. They wanted me to go with them, being mouse-type people. Well, the first thing that happened was the paediatrician recognised me, and went into a tirade about how dare they darken his chambers with such a cretin as myself. I applied court tactics, and just started asking him questions. Which he couldn't answer. I asked him what he knew about Vitamin C treatment of Kawasaki Disease, and he knew nothing. The father dialled Archie's number on his mobile, by arrangement, and he refused to talk to him. I left the literature with him, which according to the nurse, was flung in the skip. He point blank refused to even consider the issue. His paradigm, authority and knowledge had been challenged, and he didn't want a bar of it..
I told the parents what to do, but they were too scared to start that day. The next day, she was worse, and skin was starting to peel, so they rang Archie to confirm everything and started the treatment without permission. Within 6 hours, the temperature had gone, and their biggest problem was one little girl trying to rip out lines. They were discharged two days later. The peeling only extended to the edge of the finger-tips.
The case was written up, hailing the virtues of the gamma globulin which had been used in the first 5 of the 8 day stay. Even though the parents had not given permission for the case to be published, unless the Vitamin C doses and times, which they had written into the hospital clinical records themselves, were included in the study. They were not. Of course.
Now, lets look at Vitamin C itself. For me, Vitamin C does not work very well, alone. I need to take other vitamins with it. I have to take Vitamin A. (By the way, vitamin C is very useful to help clear symptoms of vitamin A toxicity is someone has been stupid enough to overdose)I also need magnesium, and zinc. Vitamin F is made more effective when plenty of vitamin C is taken. Pantothenic Acid is more effective with Vitamin C. So is B15, para-aminobenzoic Acid, B6, B2, B1,Vitamin E, Calcium.
So we are talking about a very complicated biochemical network of action, which will vary from individual to individual.
The only time Vitamin C can and should be taken in isolation IMO is under conditions of acute illness, or where toxin from a sting or bite is an issue. Or, of course, scurvy.
Actually, scurvy would be a very instructive and interesting study for anyone, after all, death by scurvy is essentially the total breakdown of collagen throughout the whole body.
The issue of Vitamin C and other vitamins is not one that can be tested, or utilised in normal conditions, in laboratories in isolation (i.e. Vitamin c on its own). And it certainly cannot be evaluated for acurate action in a test-tube away from the immune system of the body.
For those interested in Vitamin in general, try to find an out of print book called "Mental and Elemental Nutrients" by Carl C. Pfeiffer, Ph.D., M.D. Printed 1975, ISBN 0-87983-114-6.
For all that this is 27 years old, this book is absolutely fascinating. You would like to think that the medical professions knowledge of Vitamins has improved since then, but IMO, the reductionist method of looking at one thing down a microscope is sending the word "knowledge" into disrepute.
For those who want to udnerstand more about the concept of different doses for different people - I don't know a more recent book, because this one was enough for me. It is called "Biochemical Individuality, the Basis for the Genetotrophic Concept" by Roger J. Williams. Who is a doctor. Pub 1979, ISBN 0-292-70022-9, John Wiley and Sons, USA. This was a man way before his time.
If you are lucky enough to track down all these books, read and understand at least the overall gist of them (Clemetson's are hard work!), then you will probably know more about the subject of Vitamin C, its functions, symbiotic relationships, various functions, and how it interacts in a complex web of multifunctioning in the body, than the researchers of the study mentioned.
For while Vitamin C is called a vitamin, IMO, it is not just a vitamin. It is a detoxification agent, anti-viral, antibacterial (different modus operandi to anti-viral function), a key player in many different functions, such as bone density, anti-stroke, anti-heart attack.
In an article on Influenza I posted here eons ago, there was a short extract on some studies which did show benefit in clinical use which read:
"Might malnutrition be a factor? I looked in vain to find anything in any of the clippings about the use of non- patented medicine in this year’s publicity. Apart from one reference to eating good food I could find nothing. Dr Lance Jennings goes on about how serious influenza is, but nowhere do I see any mention of his study (mentioned in North and South, June 1996) “conducted at the University of Wisconsin in 1988 which demonstrated that a daily dose of 2000 mg of vitamin C reduces the severity of a cold by one half, and alleviates influenza symptoms.”
Nor is it mentioned that a recent review (Paed Infect Dis J, 1997;16: 836-7) of three vitamin C studies found huge decreases (³80%) in pneumonia in people who took vitamin C as opposed to those who didn’t, and mentioned Sabin’s findings that no cases of pneumonia were found in monkeys with adequate vitamin C.
This would seem very important, since the focus of the medical people’s loving-kindness seems to have been the elderly. So why doesn’t Lance Jennings tell them that zinc is vital for colds (and the flu)? The last time he mentioned that was in the Sunday Star Times, 7/7/96. Since vitamin C is his interest, why doesn’t he tell the group most at risk from the flu that they could not only lessen the severity of, if not prevent, both flu and pneumonia by taking supplements, but that vitamin C would increase their iron absorption (Nutrition Reviews Vol. 45, No 7 July 1987) and greatly enhance the Th1 cellular immunity which is all important in fighting the flu (Paed Inf Dis J, 1999;18: 283-290). Vitamin C and E supplementation also reduces the risk of cataracts by at least 50% (Canadian study, mentioned in Time, 6/4/92). Vitamin C reduces coronary mortality by 50% in comparison with those who don’t take it (BMJ Volume 314, 1 March 1997), vitamin E significantly improves cell mediated immune responses in the elderly (JAMA, May 7, 1997, Vol. 277, No 17:1380-1386), a high level of vitamin C means you have a far lower chance of having a stroke (BMJ, Volume 310, pg. 1563-6), men with a history of cardiac disease who were given beta carotene supplements of 50 mg every other day suffered half as many heart attacks, strokes and deaths as those popping placebo pills (Harvard study 22,000 male physicians Time, 6/4/92), and that supplementation with vitamin E reduces the pathogenesis of arthritis, diabetes and systemic lupus erythematosus (Am J Clin Nutr, 1993; 57: 650-656, Metab Clin Exp 1990;39:1278-1284)…."
And this is just scratching the surface of conditions which I , Clemetson and others have described which all benefit from Vitamin C.
Vitamin C can't be patented, and is of no financial value to pharmaceutical companies. And I'm sorry to say, that is what drives the majority of conventional doctors, who do not know where to look to find the information which could possible cause them to rethink their attitudes, for the sake of their patients.
These sites might help you understand why (Don't know if all the URLs will work though:http://www.orthomed.com/index.htmhttp://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/index.htmhttp://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...1.htm#appendixhttp://www.orthomed.com/klenner.htmhttp://doctoryourself.com/cathcart_thirdface.htmlhttp://www.internetwks.com/pauling/hoffer.htmlhttp://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html#FISHEShttp://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html#FREDhttp://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html#NULLhttp://www.autism.com/ari/editorials/vitaminc.html
and just to get that old hoary about kidney stones out the way:http://archinte.ama-assn.org/issues/.../ioi80289.html
New insights into the physiology and pharmacology of vitamin Chttp://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-164/issue-3/0353.htmhttp://nurses.medscape.com/reuters/p...07clin009.htmlhttp://www.*********/p/vitc.html
Dr Cathcart http://www.mall-net.com/cathcart/
Vit C Foundation http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/
Klenner paper http://www.orthomed.com/klenner.htm
Dr Pittman http://www.he.net/~center/
Ascorbate Web http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/
Linus Pauling site http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/
C for Yourself http://www.CforYourself.com/