No Cry Sleep Solution Support Thread.... - Page 24

[Louisep]

Originally Posted by terrainthailand

I would think that using Pantley's 3-step approach to getting him to settle himself would be of great benefit here. It is not fun, but if you could try getting your DS to get used to falling asleep out of your arms, it might help him to go back to sleep when he wakes up and isn't hungry or anything. We haven't made it much past step 1, but I think it has been a big help. What I did was bounce or nurse DD until she was asleep and then rather than waiting until she was in deep sleep, I would immediately put her down, she would rouse a bit (which was what I wanted) and then I would "shhhush" her and pat her bottom. The first few days were rough, I had to keep picking her up and putting her back down. But it really did start to work. It helped me to put her down on her side, the butt was available for patting and it kept her from jerking or flailing around much when I set her down.

Let us know how you make out!!

Just starting to do this and it's going well so far. Well in the sense that I'm putting him down before he is in deep sleep, he rouses slightly, and then goes back to sleep without me having to pick him up again. However, I've only been doing this when I put him to sleep the first time at night.

It seems like it's something easier to do if they sleep in their own crib? Does your DD sleep in her own bed? Are you using this method when she wakes at night?

[100%mom]

My baby was sleeping in a playpen next to our bed until I moved it out into the living room a couple nights ago. The first night it took an hour of nursing, laying him down, crying, picking him back up to comfort him, nursing, laying him back down before he gave up and went to sleep when I layed him down. Each time I layed him down sleepy but awake. That first night he fell asleep at 10, then he woke to nurse at 12:30, 3:30, and 5:30. Then last night he was sleeping by 9 and didn't wake up til 2:30!!!! Then again at 5:30. So I'm hoping that wasn't a one night thing.

[terrainthailand]

Hey, haven't checked here in a bit. as DD had a rough week last (due to teething? growth spurt?).

Just starting to do this and it's going well so far. Well in the sense that I'm putting him down before he is in deep sleep, he rouses slightly, and then goes back to sleep without me having to pick him up again. . . It seems like it's something easier to do if they sleep in their own crib? Does your DD sleep in her own bed? Are you using this method when she wakes at night?

I'm glad it is giving you some success. Being able to transfer DD after nursing her to sleep was the best thing I got out of this. We've been working on step 2 now, getting her to fall asleep out of arms. It is taking longer, but I think I am starting to see some progress.

To answer your questions, she sleeps in her crib until I go to bed, usually, I have used this to transfer her to the family bed too though. Like you, I usually only use this approach for the start of the night (and naps). In the middle of the night I have been just using nursing and the PPO (which we have a lot of success with).

It isn't necessarily NCSS, but I am gently trying to cut out a couple of her night feedings to see if that makes any difference. Instead of just giving the breast, I've been waking myself up and trying to soothe her back to sleep in other ways. I've been doing this for two nights now, and so far, not so bad as I expected. It has been taking about 10 minutes for her to fall back to sleep with me rubbing her back and shusshing. About 3 minutes of that is crying (but not the crazy desperate kind) and the rest is just kind of complaining noises). I'm really hoping to see some success from this.

[LuluMama8]

Help with PPO

So I have spent the last few days reading each and every one of these 24 pages looking for help with sleep issues for my 3 1/2 month old DD. First of all, I am so sad there are so many mamas, babies, and dads getting so little sleep. Second, I am so moved and impressed by your perseverance to work with your LOs to get everyone some sleep.

I am not in the desperate situation of many in this thread as my DD sleeps very well through the night (8-9 hours since she was 8 weeks old; I am very grateful for this, don't get me wrong) in an amby baby hammock right next to me. The problems are she is starting to wake up every 20 minutes or so for a couple hours when we put her down at night, she is having horrid short, erratic naps, and she is super addicted to nursing to sleep (which often takes an hour or so). I spend a lot of my day trying to help her get to sleep with nursing or the sling and then a lot of time keeping her asleep. I just started using techniques from NCSS (actually no cry nap solutions) including sitting with her throughout naps to try to lenghten them either with rocking her hammock if she moves a little or picking her up and nursing her if she wakes up and is crying and am trying desperately to use the PPO so she is not attached to my breast for hours every day. I LOVE breastfeeding her, but I don't want that to be the ONLY way she can get to sleep (if she falls asleep in the sling, she has to stay there, I can't move from sling to hammock or she'll wake up and her sling naps are short).

So my questions to all of you are:
- Tell me more about how exactly you did PPO, how your LO responded, and how long it took to get results? (I have used Cartesia's advice from earlier in the thread to start when she is not yet asleep and to repeat every 15-30seconds but I do it 15-30 times [my nipples are getting really sore] and she instantly looks for the nipple again even with the chin holding and just keeps falling more and more asleep oblivious to my PPOs but still wanting to suck until she is asleep enough to eventually let me PPO and put her down fast asleep. It feels like it's not working at all differently from when I used to let her suck until she was fast asleep and then slip my nipple out and put her down)

-Also, related to the PPO, I find that if I try to immediately rock or shush or bounce her she very quickly wakes up and I have added 30 minutes or more to getting her to sleep. What exactly do people do immediately after the PPO?

-Besides wearing the baby (as I mentioned above, I can't transfer her asleep from carrier to bed), what other ways besides nursing have people successfully used to get their nursing-addicted babies to sleep?

I know this is a long post, but I could really use your helpwith these rather specific issues. Thanks!

[terrainthailand]

Hi LuluMama8 - I wanted to give you some feedback, though the "suck to sleep" association hasn't really been our issue, so I hope that someone else will respond to you as well!

1. PPO not working/feels the same as removing nipple once she is asleep. I totally hear you on this one, but I think if you persevere, you will eventually get results. How long? Probably varies a lot by kiddo. I still have times when I have to do PPO 7-10 times in a row, but the majority of the time my LO will pop off when she is full, roll away, and fall asleep. I think it is important to be persistent, that is, don't wait too long between attempts. Don't give her the chance to fall completely asleep, keep giving her the opportunity to fall asleep without the nipple in her mouth. Hang in there!! It is so worth it to see your baby's back!

2. What do you do right after PPO? We worked diligently on the first step of NCSS's 3 step approach to getting the baby to fall asleep out of arms. We haven't really progressed much past step 1, but I think it is because I am so satisfied. For me, when PPO works, my LO comes of the breast, sighs, rolls a bit (unless in my arms), and is asleep. I then transfer her to the crib (or bed) right away. When she stirs, I shhh/pat butt to sleep. It works amazingly! Now, if after PPO she opened her eyes, or otherwise indicated she wasn't asleep yet, I would pop the breast right back in there and never allow her to become completely awake. If the breast isn't working, then I would bounce to sleep or whatever would work. I know, there is nothing more frustrating than having your LO asleep and then "ruining it" and having to spend an additional 30 minutes getting back to that place.

3. Getting to sleep without nursing? For the first 4 months of my LO's life she would NOT nurse to sleep. I usually bounced her to sleep in my arms after nursing, it is pretty much like wearing her to sleep, except it is much easier to transfer her to a bed - or just sit down and read a book if the transfer isn't going to happen. It worked, but I don't really recommend it, because as baby gets bigger, bedtime gets harder. Right now what I am doing (sort of a spin off of the latter steps in the NCSS 3 step plan mentioned above) is laying down in bed with LO, nursing until almost asleep, and then laying there and soothing, re-offering the breast, etc until she falls asleep next to me. The first week it took an hour every night... there were some tears, but not many, and I was always there, and always re-offering the breast. The second week the time starting coming down and last night it only took 15 minutes!!! She nursed until content, popped off, rolled back and forth for a couple of minutes and then closed her eyes.. AMAZING!!! That night.. she only woke 2 times. Even more amazing.

Hope any of that can be helpful to you!!

[LuluMama8]

Thanks a lot, Terra, for your detailed response. I have stopped the PPOs for now since my nipples were just getting way too sore and I've had problems with infections in the past so I didn't want them to get too beat up. What I do instead is take out the nipple when she's drowsy but not asleep, she wakes up and looks around for the nipple, and I put her down in her hammock and rock/sway/shush for 15-20 minutes and she usually falls asleep! If at any point she starts crying I pick her up and nurse her until she's fast asleep. Some naps she really just wants to nurse the whole nap and so I let her maybe once a day do that. The other naps she's either in the sling (once a twice a day), in her hammock, or in bed with me. I cannot seem to lengthen her naps at all (they are usually 45 minutes) with any of Pantley's methods although I have been consistently trying and, for now, I've decided to let it go and just let her follow the sleep schedule she desires.

[CookAMH]

Joining in here, too tired to read up now. Starting Phase one tonight with 6.5mo DS. Had a successful gentle removal of the paci earlier tonight! He had been waking up an hour after going down, as if from a nap, but hasn't tonight. We put him in a sposie tonight.

Anyone have a better night sleeper in sposies compared to CD? We figure, if this is the case with him, one dipe a night or one pack a month is worth the $10.

[Cartesia]

Lulu Mama -

Sounds like your solution of transferring to the Amby while she is drowsy is a good idea.

You know, the other thing to keep in mind is that all the sleep stuff changes so much over the course of a year so something might suddenly start working that never worked before and vice versa.

When my DS was your daughter's age, he would only nap in the sling while BOUNCING THE ENTIRE TIME...no joke.....OR, attached to my nipple and nursing the entire time. At around 5 months he finally started napping in the Amby and for a long time that worked beautifully. Then, at 10 months, he stopped wanting to nap in the Amby and what works now at 11 months is bouncing him until he is mostly asleep (takes 5-10 minutes) and then laying him down alone on a twin mattress with a safety gate around it.

Also, not to scare you, but night time sleep does seem to change around 4 months and you might not be able to count on the great nights you are having now. My LO slept wonderfully until 4 months and then it was another story completely....at 10 months it started getting better and now at 11 months we are just starting to get 5 & 6 hour chunks again...on a good night...and I fully expect it will change again when his molars start coming in....

So, I know it is important to try to work with sleep associations and all of that and at the same time, some of theses things just change with time. I think there is a fine balance between encouraging change and just trying to go with the flow.

You'll get through it. It is so hard but it really does go by fast, esp. after the first 6 months....

[justKate]

CookAMH, we do prefer sposies for night time. Never managed to get through a night leak-free in a CD.


So can anyone help me with my NCSS issue? We PPO pretty well--she doesn't object much (usually) and often rolls away from me afterwards. The problem is nightwaking--I don't wake up enough to look at the clock and write anything down to really identify her sleep patterns. All I know is that she wakes 5-6 times each night and nurses back to sleep, ending with the PPO.

Also, does anyone feel like NCSS is geared more towards keeping the baby asleep rather than getting the baby to sleep? What does Ms. Pantley suggest for sleep fighters who will nurse until they're full and then scream?

Sorry if it sounds cynical, I'm just at wit's end here....

[annemoonstar]

Ok, I'm in contemplation mode with the NCSS. I have read most of the book and have tried some of the techniques here and there. This is our current situation...any advice with how to get started from here would be great!

DS doesn't usually fight going to sleep. We have a relatively predictable routine--say night night to DH, aunt, and dog, change into a sleep diaper (I too have been using sposies--we had constant leaks with CD, and last time I tried to put a big bulky sleep CD on DS he screamed until I changed him!), and PJ's. Then we look at some books, tell a "story" about our day, turn down the lights, walk, rock, and sing a lullaby, then lie down to nurse.

I have been doing PPO for a long time and sometimes it works amazingly (he rolls over and is asleep), other times I need to shush and pat his bottom, other times he roots, whines and moves around (with eyes closed) and I will need to do the PPO for 6, 7, 8 times, usually by that time he has essentially nursed to sleep. Then there is the recent behavior, where he seems like he is very close to being asleep (eyes closed, body relaxed). I remove the nipple, and he immediately rolls over, pops up and is crawling away (sleepy, disoriented crawling--but in motion nonetheless!). So then we start over. He always nurses lying next to me (not in arms).

The whole night time process from saying night-night to being asleep can take anywhere from 15-45 minutes, but usually its the shorter time frame. He starts off the night on a futon next to our bed (surrounded on all sides so he can't get out). After the first waking when we get in bed, he comes in bed with us.

So the bigger problem is staying asleep. He almost always wakes at least once between his bed time (between 6:30-7:30) and our bed time (usually between 9:30-10). But sometimes he wakes 4 times in that same time period...always requiring being nursed back down. I do PPO every time during these wakings since I am still awake and can be intentional about it. Sometimes he just sucks for a minute, then I can pull out and be on my way. Other times he actually will eat again and it will be more like 15 minutes before he is out enough for me to leave.

I always nurse him again when he comes to bed with us and again do PPO. Usually this is an easy one since I am right there and he just snuggles up and goes to sleep. The night wakings between that time and morning vary hugely. Some nights he might only wake twice. Other nights (like last night), it's every hour. During these wakings I almost always have to nurse him and almost always I fall back asleep immediately so don't PPO. And sometimes I'll wake an hour or so later and he is still nursing--I don't know if he has been nursing the whole time, or has re-latched when he wakes. I have not had the motivation or energy to write down all of these wakings so this is all just a guesstimate.

So here are the interventions I have been contemplating. Any thoughts/advice on which to try first or not to attempt?

1. Try to transition him to sleeping more of the night on the futon. If I have to come down to him to get him back to sleep, maybe I can be more consistent with finding other ways (other than nursing) to get him back to sleep. Plus, maybe he would wake less if not sleeping right next to me (although the first part of the night would suggest this isn't the case).

2. Intentially try to identify the times he is actually nursing to eat vs. for comfort. Nurse him during those times, but have DH take him to walk for all other wakings (won't go over well with DH, but he says he wants to help).

3. Re-arrange our routine so that we nurse and then I walk/rock him all the way to sleep. He does not transition well from arms to bed though, so I'm not sure this will work.

4. Wait it out. I've been really unsure about whether or not to intervene since everyone tells me this is a normal sleep regression age (he will be 9 months next week) and since his sleep patterns are so inconsistent it's hard to know what the main issue is. On the other hand, I WOH so really need to find a way to get more consistent sleep...

Any other thoughts/suggestions?

Thank you oh wise mamas!

[Birdie B.]

subbing - I am just now reading the NCSS for my 13 month old who was an excellent sleeper until a couple months ago! I am desperate for a longer stretch of sleep at night!

[sarahz5]

Annemoonstar - I can relate to so much of what you said! Here's what I have learned, and I wouldn't have wanted to hear it at 9 months anymore than you probably will... some breastfed babies wake up more because they are looking for the milk. I know it's all anecdotal, but so many of my friends' babies started sleeping when they weaned.

I am committed to nursing for at least two years, but at about 15 minutes I started gently nightweaning. I cannot tell you the difference it made. I went from pulling my hair out over 6-8 wakings a night to dealing with only 2-3 wakings per night at the most. Now he is down to 1-2 wakings, and sometimes the first one doesn't come until 5 am or so. If I ever lose consistency and start letting him nurse at night again, he reverts right back and wakes up more often.

I have also found a big difference when my DH puts him to sleep instead of me. If I nurse him downstairs, and DH takes him up and puts him to bed, he is a lot more likely to sleep soundly through the night. I don't know why it matters, but I guess if he nurses RIGHT before sleep, even though I make sure he doesn't fall asleep nursing, he has it right on the tip of his brain when he wakes up.

I wouldn't feel comfortable nightweaning at 9 months, but it's something that you can consider for the near future. I've mentioned this on a different thread, but the way I did it was to keep track of when he nursed and how long for a few nights. Then, instead of waiting for him to wake up, I would try to get him to dream feed about half an hour before his earliest usual wakeup. That way, he wasn't likely to wake up, because he was satiated. And so on for the rest of the usual nursing sessions. The first night, I nursed him the same amount of time he nursed the previous nights. After that, I cut down each nursing session by 2 minutes, until he no longer needed that session. I read about this in a book, and the reason they suggest this method is (a) it breaks the association between breastfeeding and waking up; and (b) even if the baby doesn't physiologically need food at night, it's hungry because it is accustomed to eating during the night and it hasn't adjusted its daytime intake to account for not eating. So if you do it gradually, the baby will eat more during the day to make up for it, and the habit will be gently broken.

Anyway, I know other things work for other people, but that's what worked for me! My son went down to sleep easily, and was even easy to get back to sleep after he woke up, so I know I am lucky in that respect - but he just CONSTANTLY woke up! Sounds like you are dealing with something similar. Good luck - I hope you find something that works for you!

[Kempnich]

I know this was a looong time ago that you posted this, but I'm just wondering what you ended up doing. I feel like I'm reading what I would post. My Eva fights sleep like crazy! After two weeks, she is just now letting me rock her to sleep without screaming. She usually nurses to sleep, but because I did that, she started fighting nursing, too. Anyway, she wakes up a couple of times at night, but that's no big deal. Her naps are what kill me. It takes me forever to get her to sleep and then she only sleeps a little bit and wakes up tired. I try to put her back to sleep, but that has worker twice in the past two weeks. Anyway, just wondering what you did. Thanks!