People who get a deal are so unappreciative

[SublimeBirthGirl]

I tend to be really flexible with finances. I want women to benefit from a good childbirth class, and when I was attending births I felt the same way about having a trained labor support person. I think I'm going to get more hardnosed about money though.

The only student of mine who didn't finish paying me what she owed, I attended her birth basically for free ($25 to cover my gas), and discounted her class costs as well because she missed the last class, even though my policy is no refund after a certain point. She never paid me the last $75, and just had her SECOND baby so obviously it's not gonna happen.

I'm teaching a class now, and a woman called me having a rough time financially. I let her take the class at my cost, which is a very steep discount. I figured I was teaching anyway, she might as well be there and I felt bad for her because of her situation. She's been late to class every week til today, and today she was a no-call/no-show.

I'm going to stop being nice about this stuff. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon?

[tlcdoula]

Unfortunately I have. Not in all cases, but in most those that get a discount or free services just do not value those services as much as those who pay full price. I used to do lots and lots of free births and seemed to get stomped on over and over again, and so in general I do not do them anymore. Instead I will help people find a means of paying for my services on their own. Whether that is helping them to find the finances, helping them find a way to fundraise, etc but I do not give my services away for free anymore.

I also teach hospital classes and found that those who get to take the classes for free via the hospital scholarship program tend to be late or be no shows. In comparison - those who pay are on time and do not generally skip their classes. Also those who miss class and paid will call ahead of time where those that don't pay will "forget" to call.

I have to say that it is very sad though because not everyone is like this. In fact about 2 1/2 yrs ago I decided I was NOT taking anymore free clients and then a teen came along. She begged me to take her, e-mailed me several times, called several times, and finally I gave in. I didn't want to take her because I had been burned so many times and was burnt out from those situations but this teen mother was FANTASTIC!!!! In the end what was supposed to be a free birth was so appreciated that at her postpartum she paid me $100. I felt horrible for taking it because I knew she saved that money and really struggled to get it together, but there was no way she would not let me refuse her.

Hugs to you - I have also been there!

[DoomaYula]

I don't teach classes, but I did get burned a few times when I was getting my certifying births and not charging much. Once a client's dh called me like 5 days AFTER she'd had the baby. I'd stayed home from a family weekend trip to San Diego to be on call for her and I was so annoyed that SHE DIDN'T EVEN CALL ME HERSELF! Gah. Well, apparently she'd gone into labor during her baby shower, and our local hospital only allow 3 people in the room, and because her mother and sisters were with her at the shower... well I still wish she would have called me herself. Her dh told me she ended up with an epidural, an episiotomy, and a vacuum extraction.

[Spring Sun]

Yes, unfortunately, the people looking for a deal or needing a discount are often the people who turn into the biggest problems.
On a positive note, I had ds while still in school, and my midwife gave me $1000 off the $3000 birth. I appreciated it tremendously, and stayed friends with her afterwards, so not every one who needs a deal is going to be bad, it just makes you more mad when someone gets a deal and then does not appreciate it in the very least.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

I attended one birth while I was thinking about certifying for $150. It was a looooooooooooong labor - I was with mom and dad for 24 hours, having to leave my then-20 month old daughter with my ILs overnight for 2 nights in a row for the first time (not that she minded but it was a little hard on me!). It was a great birth, FUN though tiring, and they gave me an extra $100 along with a really nice thank-you note. So you're right, it's not everybody.

[mwherbs]

yes- you have said it- the most work for the least amount of money- happens frequently-- from when I have taught classes, through attending births

[Veritaserum]

Yes, I've noticed it, too. I do still discount for some, but I let them come up with the amount they feel they can pay, knowing my regular price. I've done payment plans for several people, too.

[pamamidwife]

I was just having this conversation with my apprentice not too long ago. I find that when I do low-cost or free births two things happen: there seems to be a general lack of commitment to homebirth with a route of having a very high-needs client - and the second thing is my resentment because of this.

I have decided that I cannot be resentful if it is me that sets the rule that they can have a free or very low-cost birth. It's not THEM that is to blame - it's me. It's my issue with my own boundaries.

So, I have stopped doing free or very low-cost births unless I am sure there is an absolute necessity for it. I've had low-income families that have paid my entire fee - it can be done. I feel like a genuine commitment to get the fee paid is something that I appreciate.

[UrbanMomma]

I am not a birth professional, but a client of a fabulous MW, who TRULY appreciates the discount she gave me on my homebirth she'll be attending next month.
She has been fabulous and so understanding of my very difficult financial situation and I am so very appreciative of her (and all of you ladies who do reduced/free services!)
I am not done paying her, but will have our agreed upon amount paid before the baby arrives and I plan on paying the rest of her fee with my tax return next year even though she keeps telling me no.
Its a shame that some of you have been, I guess, taken advantage of for your kindness.

[Maggi315]

I have also had similar experiences. What I decided to do from now on is to barter. If someone is truly needy (and I have been truly needy!) then i want them to still have their homebirth. And I am willing to work with that. I came up with a list of things I would barter for, things my family wants or needs. I read a study a few years ago that said that people who get something for nothing tend to be unappreciative. But those who work for it, tend to view it more seriously.

Sad it has to be that way.

[tammyswanson]

It's a shame that people take advantage of you like that, but I'm not surprised. I always pay my debts, if I can't afford something I don't get it, kwim? Others are not that way. They'll rip you off without thinking twice. We are trying to sell a shack (a really crappy house) and we've been trying for 2 years, we lowered the price to like 9000 bucks, and we get people offering 4000 for it! What an insult, sure it's a dump but it's got all hook ups and the value is in the land, near town, etc.

The only thing the econ teacher I had taught us was (he was drunk most of the time) was if you try to sell goods or services too cheap, people will want to pay nothing or less than nothing for them...it's crazy but true!

I hate seeing people like you being taken advantage of.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

Barter is a really good idea.

[Mindi22]

I've discovered this same phenomenon with my chiropractic clients - but usually it's not the pregnant ones. I have a hardship rate in my office that many of my pregnant clients need because they are currently down to one income in the family, or they will be soon, and they are just trying to make ends meet. I would never deny anyone care based on whether or not they can pay, but I have found that those who pay something, appreciate it much more than those who get a free ride for whatever reason.

I have used the barter idea in my office with some success, but it can be hard sometimes to figure out the exact value translation between services, especially if you're not working with a professional who charges $x amount for something. Legally for tax purposes, you do have to keep track of bartering as well.

I think there is something to be said for placing a value on your services, even if it's not monetary. Free tends to equal worthless, which obviously isn't the case for your services.

[azjen43]

Just curious, what are some types of things you've bartered for?

[mwherbs]

sewing for my kids when they were younger- although I can sew very well this gal could too and she did a great job-- I have also traded for an old "milk" fridge - I just needed a fridge and they had one ; ), cord wood in places where it is cold enough- labor of different kinds-- so at times it was sliding fee scale that was paid via work or trade- I don't even know where to begin with a sliding scale now-- in the far past I used the sliding fee scale that the Texas Association of Midwives published in their newsletter-
Pat Thom also years ago talked about the way that she worked trades was to credit people their hourly wage - so then she knew how many hours of work someone needed to do to equal her fee--

[StormySar]

I notice if a couple isn't able to pay *something* for a class, they aren't *usually* going to value it as much. That being said, I make it a point to make it known that I work with anyones financial situation, and though sometimes I might feel like i'm being taken advantage by everyone, I still offer many options because occasionally you come across the couples who really want your class, really truley cannot afford it, and will appreciate the heck out of a discount or special arrangement (which will benefit them and their baby). If you close your doors to everyone, you might miss that couple.

I had one couple last year who couldn't afford my classes, but they really seemed like she wanted the classes. We invited them into our home and spoke to them about what my classes cover, what they think they can afford, and discussed options. We decided we'd barter - in a unusual arrangement - but they came over to our home before their class and would cook us and them dinner. We'd sit around the table and eat together as a family, I was able to encourage her to eat healthy meals and show her a few things in the kitchen, and we enjoyed a nice time talking and getting to know each other before classes. They were a young couple, and this arrangement worked out really well. Having dinner cooked for my family by someone other than myself I have to admit was very nice.

On a few occasions I have invited some moms into my home just to talk to them and calm their fears. In many cases they were too close to their due tdate to attempt starting a class series, they were single and very young, so I'd invite them over, give them a book to borrow (Sheila Kitzingers), show some births on TV, let them ask their questions and air their concerns. This might turn into a several hour session but I never charged for it. I enjoyed the company and the opportunity to help!

I can completely understand the need to charge if you have to do this for a living, however. My business has always been a sort of a "hobby" that I do to help my husbands income, but have never had to depend on it for survival. I suppose in that case, if you're being taken advantage of a lot or start spending more time with students wh don't pay vs. time with your family, you might want to restrict that to a point.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

For me it's less about the money, and more about wanting THEM to value the class and my time, and their own birth experience.

[Veritaserum]

Originally Posted by SublimeBirthGirl

For me it's less about the money, and more about wanting THEM to value the class and my time, and their own birth experience.

ITA. I want them to be fully vested in their experience, to commit to doing what they can to improve their birth experience.

[pamamidwife]

well i think therein lies the problem: when we have expectations of OTHERS i honestly believe we'll almost always be disappointed. we cannot control how someone else lives their life, births their babies, or "values our services". we can only control and deal with our OWN expectations and reactions.

I think that this thread is valuable in seeing that we're still doing things for free with expectations attached. When that's the case, we'll surely be disappointed. You know?

[Snowdrift]

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