Homeopathy - Good for VPD or Placebo Effect? - Page 2

[luminesce]

Originally Posted by EVC

Please rescue me from the dark pit of my ignorance: what exactly is "true homeopathy" vs. natural remedies? I often use the two interchangeably and I know that that's wrong, but what exactly is the difference????

Watch the video in the link. It is kinda funny. He talks about how he took a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping remedy during a conference and likens the dilution of some substances to a grain of rice in the solar system multiplied by a billion.

[Deborah]

I think it breaks down by materialists vs non-materialists.

I find materialism philosophically unsatisfying, so I look at the universe as being an excretion of spirit/consciousness, rather than consciousness being an epiphenomenon of matter.

For non-materialists, it isn't hard to see non-material stuff, like homeopathically prepared remedies having an effect on material stuff like bodies, because the non-material stuff created the bodies in the first place.

Incidentally, my experience is that done correctly, homeopathic stuff works very nicely and allopathic stuff doesn't (and has nasty side effects besides), but some of it must be the placebo effect , and since I really don't trust allopathic medicine, I've got to deal with the reverse placebo effect

[IrenaF]

I just don't see how it can be a placebo effect, because I use it on my children from age 1 and sometimes I see immediate change.
I was cured by homeopathy when I was 5 years old. It saved me from an operation to remove on adenoids and tonsils. After half year starting homeopathy we went to the doctor and he just couldn't believe that my tonsils were normal again and there were no adenoids. And before that we visited a few doctors (my mother wanted second opinion), and every doctor was saying that the operation should be performed as soon as possible. My mother didn't know then about homeopathy and didn't believe in it, she just wanted to give it a try it before the operation.

[IrenaF]

Originally Posted by serenitii

Watch the video in the link. It is kinda funny. He talks about how he took a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping remedy during a conference and likens the dilution of some substances to a grain of rice in the solar system multiplied by a billion.

1. In homeopathy there is no concept of "amount of remedy" . It is "dilution" that counts. You can drink whole bottle or take one sip with the same results.
2. There is no "sleeping remedy " or "remedy for cough" or "remedy for this illness" in homeopathy. Every remedy is prescribes based on patients personality and specific symptoms.

[dis]

OMG, I can't believe I've finally found people on MDC who are sensible about homeopathy!

*faints dead away*

I always figured I was the only one here feels it just fundamentally doesn't make any sense.

As to how it works on babys or kids or animals? Coincidence, people seeing what they want to see, the base substance actually being responsible for the results (a lot of the homeopathic remedies people were always trying to foist on me for teething involved sugar water - duh, of course the baby stops crying when you rub SUGAR on their gums! They're thinking 'dang, that's delicious!).

There's never been a single *properly controlled* study on animals that demonstrates it works (plenty of poorly controlled ones, which are worthless). It's magical twaddle and the placebo effect, and it boggles my mind that so many people here are so good at critical thinking about vaccines and so bad at critical thinking about homeopathy.

(this is not to discount natural remedies, which are a whole different kettle of fish - I'm refering her just to classical homeopathy with the dilutions)

[IrenaF]

Originally Posted by dis

OMG, I can't believe I've finally found people on MDC who are sensible about homeopathy!
I always figured I was the only one here feels it just fundamentally doesn't make any sense.

I am sorry for everyone that does NOT believe in homeopathy, because it is a wonderful way to treat many health problems - for kids, for animals and for adults. Even it it is a placebo, WHY is that so BAD??? Placebo - the BEST medicine that can be, because it is the body that repairs itself , without ANY side effects.
I can tell a lot of successful stories in my family about homeopathy, that eliminated the need for operation, drugs, antibiotics, steroids. And the problems have never returned. WHY IS IT BAD???

[mamakay]

Placebo - the BEST medicine that can be, because it is the body that repairs itself , without ANY side effects.

As a basic rule I agree with you. It's, at worst, completely harmless. The only qualification there is if there's something very wrong that's NOT getting better on it's own and more effective treatment is declined in favor of homeopathy.

But otherwise, it's not harmful.

[dis]

I have no problem with placebos - sometimes I swear 90% of illness is all in our heads.

What I have a problem with is people making false claims and huge profits off of selling what is basically just water.

[mamakay]

I have no problem with placebos - sometimes I swear 90% of illness is all in our heads.

And 9% more of the time...rest, nutrition, and patience will take care of it just fine. (as the effectiveness of homeopathy attests to, I think.)
The human body is amazingly good at fixing itself when it comes to minor stuff.

What I have a problem with is people making false claims and huge profits off of selling what is basically just water.

I hear ya'.

[IrenaF]

Originally Posted by mamakay

As a basic rule I agree with you. It's, at worst, completely harmless. The only qualification there is if there's something very wrong that's NOT getting better on it's own and more effective treatment is declined in favor of homeopathy.

I think if the time is critical and homeopathy is not helping immediately , every smart person will go to allopatic doctor
When I had abscess in my tooth root I went to the dentist who is also homeopath, he suggested to try homeopathy for one day only and in case it won't help, he give me antibiotics. It did helped in ONE day and I didn't need the drugs

[IrenaF]

Originally Posted by dis

I have no problem with placebos - sometimes I swear 90% of illness is all in our heads.

What I have a problem with is people making false claims and huge profits off of selling what is basically just water.

I agree to pay big money for the "just water" that cures me without any side effects And many people that suffers from different illnesses will agree

[BethanyB]

I am among the skeptics,too, although I am giving ds homeopathic teething tablets (I don't know if they are doing much). But one homeopathic product that really works is arnica-either the tablets or the gel. I used to use it on my massage clients and it really does provide relief for sore muscles and bruising. Could it be that some homeopathics work better than others?

[dis]

Did you do a test to see if it worked any better than just massage alone?

True homeopathics are just water, so no, some won't work better than others. Lots of things are labelled homeopathic when they really do have active ingredients, so they aren't really homeopathic.

[cornflake girl]

If you've ever seen a humongous goose egg literally disappear off of a baby's forehead after using arnica, you'd believe.

[grisandole]

Originally Posted by cornflake girl

If you've ever seen a humongous goose egg literally disappear off of a baby's forehead after using arnica, you'd believe.

Yep. Or curing severe excema. Or helping tremendously with a burn. Or stomach issues....

[IrenaF]

What I don't understand, if the homeopathy is JUST a placebo, WHY the usual drugs don't work as placebo???
My mother had terrible rash for few months, she went to a dermatologist, he gave her a some drug, it got worse. She wanted it to work, REALLY. Then she went to a homeopath, after 2 weeks the rush disappeared completely. So why the usual drugs didn't help, my mother believed in them ? And I know many cases when the drugs didn't help but homeopathy did.

[SneakyPie]

Originally Posted by Spy

There is nothing magical or supernatural about homeopathy . It works, and it works well, but you have to know what you're doing otherwise it's as good as wishful thinking.

There is a whole lot of allopathic medicine that doesn't have a well described or even understood mechanism of action which doesn't stop doctors from prescribing and patients from using them receiving the desired effect at least some of the time .

True homeopathy is not just using 'very diluted' stuff. There are=rules that have to be followed otherwise it is just using 'very diluted stuff' - which is used a lot in a number of alternative therapies none of which is, strictly speaking, homeopathy.

Amen sister!

I also have lots of experience working w/homeopathy and have seen its effects firsthand, and replicated as well. I take the fact that it works in infants to mean something important.

The way I see it, it does not appear to be just placebo (although I find "placebo" to be an inaccurate term that should usually be replaced with the phrase "the mysterious will of the body to heal"). I do think it is accurate to say that our advanced science has not developed tools sensitive enough to measure/understand what is happening in a body that is being affected by a homeopathic remedy. But being unable to detect/measure/explain, is not the same as a phenomenon being unreal.

BTW Rescue Remedy is not a homeopathic remedy, it is a flower essence which is a different process of manufacture and different though related philosophy.

[InfoisPower]

Originally Posted by cornflake girl
If you've ever seen a humongous goose egg literally disappear off of a baby's forehead after using arnica, you'd believe.

:

[poetesss]

When I was studying homeopathy about 7 years ago we studied some of the double blind studies in which the homeopathics did have a statistically significant effect (one famous study involved diarrhea in children). I don't have the references to these now and am not really interested in digging them up, but what also interests me in terms of proof for homeopathy's efficacy is the historical record. In the 1918 flu pandemic the allopathic death rate for the flu was close to 30% whereas the death rate amongst the homeopathic physicians (they were also MDs by the way) was close to 1%.

There are several books on homeopathy written by allopathic medical physicians. They enjoy great success in their medical practices with homeopathics even with serious conditions such as cancer. One of the doctors I studied with (not an MD, perhaps he was a chiro) Dr. Andre Saine, has an ongoing professional relationship with oncologists who refer their patients to him for homeopathic consultation.

When you actually sit down with the medical professionals who are using this modality, when you read the historical accounts of how it has been used since it was developed, and when you experience its effect in cases where it cannot be a placebo (or observation bias FTR), you will understand the powerful effect of homeopathy.

Just my opinion of course.

[Panserbjorne]

We use homeopathy almost exclusively in our house-I say almost because there are some natural remedies I use as well. There is nothing placebo about it as far as I'm concerned. Properly used it is amazing-improperly it is not. I pay an MD who is also a homeopath that uses "true" as in classical homeopathy and he works wonders-not because we are looking for things, but because they happen. Whn my mother's white count went down and stayed down because I begged her to try homeopathy even though she thought it was ridiculous it wasn't placebo effect. When ds wasn't pooping at a month old and started going on his remedy it wasn't placebo effect, when I was bleeding out of my breast with a staph infection and had a horrible weeping rash that cleared within a day of a new remedy it wasn't placebo.

IF you don't believe it, don't use it. I think it's funny how many threads there are like this.

As to the dilution of the poison in the ocean or whatever: the idea is like cures like. So using your analogy if you suffered from terrible environmental pollution, drinking the ocean water might actually have a healing effect.