What Effect Has Feminism Had on Family?

[paula_bear]

I am starting a new thread to continue our discussion/debate about the effects that feminism, the sexual revolution, etc. have had on the family. This is really just my opinion, supported with whatever research I have come across, and my own observations in my own life as well as society in general. I welcome any and all opinions on the subject.

My contentions are:
* Putting massive numbers of children in daycare has resulted in many social problems. Children really need (preferably, IMHO) their mother or another trusted, reliable, consistant caregiver to give them lots of love and attention. No one cares for a child quite as well as his/her mother, I think.
* While adding women to the workforce has resulted in greater financial independence for women, more career choices for women, the ability to postpone (or avoid altogether) childbearing until the woman has established her career, a higher standard of living, etc., it has also created the following difficulties: the higher standard of living can make it much more difficult for the family to make the "sacrifices" which enable a mother to stay at home to raise her family. Because we "made room" for women in the workforce, the overall earning power of men has decreased, making it extremely difficult for a family to survive on one income alone. Our society has failed to meet the need for quality daycare for all children.
* The sexual revolution lead to more women having premarital sex than ever before. Men, not women, seem to have benefited the most from this. This had damaging effects on the family because the greater availability of sex made it easier for your average husband to cheat on his wife. Just take a look at our divorce rates. (When I first heard this, I nearly died! I consider myself a feminist and I found this appalling. Well, someone thought it was significant enough to write a book about it called, "What Our Mothers Didn't Tell Us." I need to check w/ a friend for the author, will get back w/ that info.)
* Now that women are frequently employed for pay outside the home, it has made the occupation of housewife, or the PC version homemaker, even less desirable and appreciated. How many times have you received that blank stare when you answer the question, "So, what do you DO?" with, "I'm a [whatever you call yourself to describe the hundreds of things you DO in any given day]." ?????? Or the condescending, "Oh, how nice." [end of conversation - how could your "work" possibly merit further discussion...]

I can't really think of anything else right now. I'll pass the ball on to someone else. I look forward to reading what others think.

Let me say again that I support every woman's right for freedom and self-determination. I just feel that society has perpetuated a selfishness in women and has encouraged women to value their careers over their families. I believe this has had and continues to have devastating consequences for our families as well as our society as a whole.

[peggy]

I agree paula. I also think it has caused a divide between women as well. We begin to beleive that our way is the only way. If we work outside the home we feel defensive and lash out at SAHM's and tell them they're boring and unfullfilled. If we stay at home we get defensive and lash out too. Calling WOHM's selfish, and less than perfect mother's. Mean while the men are laughing all the way to the bank!!!
The women's movement was supposed to make it possible for women to have choices, instead it made us believe we should have it all. We should have meaningful careers, well cared for children, beautiful homes, independence and an interesting love life. No wonder we are tired and confused and lashing out at each other.
Iam in no way saying that we should remain barefoot and pregnant, but I think we are deluding ourselves if we think that nothing suffers when we "have it all"

peggy

[pie]

Capitalism has a much greater influence on drawing women outside the home than does feminism. Feminism is a force that in part protects the rights of women both in and outside the home. I find these perspectives worthy but very middle class. I will do some research. I find it rather presumtuous of you to assume that most American women work because they WANT too. And what do you make of the welfare system being designed to force single mothers back to work, thus forcing their children into daycare?

And so if they WANT to work, if they have an intriguing career that moves and shakes and shapes the world we live in? What do you make of the many Christian women ministers and charity workers that spend countless hours outside the home?

What are you saying about the fantastic working mothers who work for the AP related field, like women who work for say, Mothering Magazine???

Not every working mother is by proxy non-AP. Most are. Again, this is more a reflection on SOCIETY and its influences on us than on feminism. Nearly every last feminist I know is a breastfeeding co-sleeping non-vaxing baby-slinging freak like me. Even if she DOES work.

What does this thread say to the working mothers here, members of this community? That they are LESS than us that stay home? I stay home. I love it. But I am a feminist!!!

Again, I do not believe it is FEMINISM that is leading to the demise of our ability to properly nurture our young but indeed a capitilistic society that values product over people. Think about it for me.

[pie]

Now that women are frequently employed for pay outside the home, it has made the occupation of housewife, or the PC version homemaker, even less desirable and appreciated. How many times have you received that blank stare when you answer the question, "So, what do you DO?" with, "I'm a [whatever you call yourself to describe the hundreds of things you DO in any given day]." ?????? Or the condescending, "Oh, how nice." [end of conversation - how could your "work" possibly merit further discussion...]

In all respect, I find THIS attitude condescending. No, working women are not always at home all day. Some are not home all night, though, working night shifts so they can be home w their kids in the day. And MANY women come home to face all the tasks of housekeeping and childrearing that WE SAHMS have ALL DAY to get done. I find it very competitive and discerning that you would imply that only SAHMS have SAHM responsibility. Again, this shows that you are assuming that the female work force is entirely middle and upper middle class when indeed, nothing could be farther from the truth.

THis is not a personal attack on you Paula Bear, or NM, or Peggy, in the least. It is simply a matter of challenging your statement. I feel VERY strongly about this issue and may come across kinda like a bull in a china shop but PLEASE know I am not attacking you personally.

[peggy]

mamapie,
You are proving my point. You are taking this as a SAHM vs WOHM issue. It is not. I was saying We All suffer.
Yes, Capitalism has many negative effects on society, but we were not talking about that. We were talking about the effects of feminism.

I believe women should be treated equal. I believe they should be paid equally. I believe they should have all the choices available to them as men do. I do not how ever believe they should buy into the "Bring Home the Bacon..Fry it Up in A Pan" mentality. It puts all the responsibilty on women and none on men.
Feminism meant to make us equal..it fell short.

Feminism is middle class. Do you think the lower income single Mom's feel feminisn has rescued them from anything?

peggy

[paula_bear]

Originally posted by mamapie
Capitalism has a much greater influence on drawing women outside the home than does feminism. <snip> I find it rather presumtuous of you to assume that most American women work because they WANT to. And what do you make of the welfare system being designed to force single mothers back to work, thus forcing their children into daycare?

Very good points. Did you read my comments in the other thread, Nurturing Magazine? I did not say that most women work because they want to. I mentioned that since women entered the workforce en masse, the average wage has actually gone down (after factoring in inflation) and most households have little choice but to send kids to daycare so that both parents can contribute toward keeping the family afloat. I agree that the so-called welfare reform does not adequately deal with the importance of the mother-child bond, but (go ahead and slam me for this one) I can see where politically these programs are popular because if middle class moms need to go out and work (and pay taxes...) to help support their families, why should poor women get to stay at home?

And so if they WANT to work, if they have an intriguing career that moves and shakes and shapes the world we live in? What do you make of the many Christian women ministers and charity workers that spend countless hours outside the home?

What are you saying about the fantastic working mothers who work for the AP related field, like women who work for say, Mothering Magazine???

I am not judging individual women who choose or must return to work. I value every woman's right to choose what best fits her situation. A woman with passion certainly has the right to pursue her calling. I never judged any woman as bad for leaving her kids to go out and work. However, in many of the occupations you gave as examples above, one could do these activities with children around at least part of the time. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't Mothering one of the top ten child-friendly workplaces in this country?

I still believe that it is possible to follow one's calling without having to spend 50+ hours a week away from one's children, especially when they are young. Our careers will be there when our children outgrow the need for our undivided attention, but lost childhoods cannot be recaptured. My contention is that in the past 30+ years, motherhood has been downgraded to an occupation that can be adequately performed by a basically untrained worker receiving little more than minimum wage. And personally, I think our children are worth more than that and I think that the mothers who are in the postion to do so and choose to stay at home with their children are doing their families and society a great service.

What does this thread say to the working mothers here, members of this community? That they are LESS than us that stay home? I stay home. I love it. But I am a feminist!!!

I never said or infered that. Where did you get that idea? I feel very fortunate that my husband supports and encourages me in our decision for me to stay at home. I feel grateful that he is able to provide for us without necessitating my early return to paid employment. I also consider myself a feminist.

Again, I do not believe it is FEMINISM that is leading to the demise of our ability to properly nurture our young but indeed a capitilistic society that values product over people. Think about it for me.

This is a very valid point that I had not previously considered. However, this country was built on the foundations of capitalism, but it is only in the past few decades that so many women throughout society (meaning all socio-economic classes) have left the home to pursue paid employment outside the home. Whether this is a result of capitalism, feminism, or whatever, what I would like to discuss is the ramifications of this phenomenon (sp?) and how it has had an impact on the family unit (micro) and society as a whole (macro).

I expect that yours will not be the last adversarial response. I just feel that no one wants to take a serious look at these issues. It seems to me that society is in complete denial that growing up without the benefit of a mother readily available to him/her does, in fact, have a negative impact on a child a great percentage of the time. I do not mean to pass judgement on any one in particular, I am speaking in general. I do not think that women should remain at home, or that women who work are "bad." But no matter what the reasons behind a woman leaving her child in someone else's care for a large percentage of his/her waking ours, and no matter how high the quality of the daycare, this DOES have an adverse effect on a child. Just my opinion.

[srain]

I would just like to say that feminism offers far more choices than limitations. Working-class women have ALWAYS held jobs. They paid less than men's jobs, and many jobs were unavailable to women. Providing more women the option of working EXPANDS their options, and even if their families choose to put their children in day care and that is seen as a negative consequence, the alternative situation [limited choices for women] is far worse.

I think that living in a society where gender is not as important a definer of roles is a net gain, even if it does mean more kids are in day care. [And yes, I feel strongly about parents raising their own children, but that's another thread.]

I also have noticed that no one in this thread has mentioned the ability of a FATHER to care for his children while their mother works- why do so many people believe the only choice is between mom working and day care? A logical extension of most branches of feminism is allowing BOTH sexes to take on roles once dnied to them.

[peggy]

That is exactly why I said feminism has fallen short. Until men also see staying home and caring for their children as an actual option, we are still left to do everything. Until staying home and caring for your own children is seen as a valuable contribution to society by both sexes..we can't truly make any progress as women or a society.

peggy

[daylily]

Feminism is about a lot more than career choices. Early feminists fought because women could not vote, own property, seek a divorce, or do anything without the permission of a husband or father.

The way we birth is a feminist issue. Paternalistic, mostly male OBs want women to be submissive and obedient during childbirth. They sedate us with drugs and use interventions we don't want. When you demand the birth you want, you are a feminist.

Choosing to breastfeed is a feminist action. It says "I am proud of my woman's body. I am capable of nourishing my child." When you breastfeed, you reject society's conventions that women must be modestly covered at all times and that breasts are the sex toys of men. When you breastfeed, you reject the male invented chemical breastmild substitutes.

I consider myself a feminist because of these issues. I agree with Peggy that modern feminism has pitted SAHMs and WOHMs against eachother. I hate it that my choice gets so little respect. It is mainly men who respect that I am a SAHM and women who make insulting and condescending comments.

[dfoy]

It seems to me that we had a thread very similar to this not long ago that turned into quite a heated debate and turned very adversarial (sp?). At the time I was advocating for mothers to support each other no matter what their choices were, SAHM, WAHM, or WOHM. We are all (at least I think so here at this board) doing what we think is best for our own families.

I am a teacher and though I work about a 40 hour week, I do have about 4 weeks off during the school year (Thanksgiving, winter break, spring break, and those "banking" holidays). I also have about 10 weeks off in the summer. I do have to continue my education during these breaks in order to recertify and keep current but this does allow me more family time than most working full time moms. I know that many other working full time moms have it really hard.

I agree with mamapie that many working women do both jobs. I know I do. My dh works many more hours than I do so the meal planning, food purchasing, cooking and cleaning as well as taking care of the baby until he gets home falls on me. I think about how much harder that would be if I didn't get home until after 5 pm every night.

Even though I know that I work because I have to, many SAHMs on the previous thread have been quite critical of my "choice". Many replies were centered around the issue that I really didn't "have" to work if I would just make some sacrifices that they had made. I still believe and want to make the point that no one knows another's circumstances well enough to make that judgement. I could just as easily pass judgement on others here who are SAHMs but constantly complain about their dh's! I certainly hear a lot of that!

That is why I advocate so adamantly for support of each other as mothers. I think everyone here is doing the best job they know how to do with the resources that they have.

[pie]

Donna is right on. You claim that I am turning this into a working mom vs. SAHM issue but you guys are the ones w the issues about working mothers children and no advice on how to amend the economy so fewer women have to work. I will reply more later as i am not feeling well now.

[paula_bear]

Originally posted by dfoy
That is why I advocate so adamantly for support of each other as mothers. I think everyone here is doing the best job they know how to do with the resources that they have.

I agree wholeheartedly. I didn't start this thread to insult anyone or judge anyone's choices. What I really wanted to discuss is that in the past 40 or so years, more women than ever from all walks of life have sought paid work outside the home. Now whether this is a result of feminism or other factors, what I would like to focus on is, how has this effected the family unit?

I do not want us to go back to the way things were. But I think that we as women and as a society could make some improvements to the way things stand at present. What started out as a choice has become, sadly enough, a necessity for many families. Average wages have not kept pace with the rise in the cost of living, and many couples simply could not manage on one income. Factor in the high divorce rate and all the single moms trying so hard to make ends meet, and we have a great number of children being raised by other caregivers. I would like us to take an honest look at that, without pointing fingers, assigning blame, or trying to make anyone feel guilty. I just feel that we cannot move ahead and forge new solutions until we are willing to at least recognize the problem.

I also agree that fathers are wonderful caregivers. Peggy made a valid point too, that until that is seriously considered as a viable option, we haven't reached a true eqality.

I also want to point out that women working outside the home still perform most of the traditional tasks assigned to "our sex" such as tending to the children, keeping the laundry from piling up, putting the meals on the table and cleaning up afterward, cleaning the house, etc. Men have taken on much more than they did before, but I think women still carry more than their fair share. We wanted the best of both worlds, but to me it seems that we were given more than one person can handle without getting burned out. JMHO. I don't know how working women manage - I really do admire them. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed as a SAHM.

I would like us to help each other with this issue. Please, let's not let this turn into us against them - there is only US! But if we can't talk about these things, how can we create solutions that work for everyone?

I also want to say that perhaps I worded my original question inappropriately. I do not mean to attack feminism. I just couldn't come up with a more suitable term to describe the changes that have taken place in our society. I think that the benefits greatly outweigh any negative consequences, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps to improve the situation if we can.

One of the improvements I feel is necessary is a stronger family leave policy. We will probably never acheive what they have in Sweden, because our birth rate hasn't declined too much. We have to demand that our government respect the importance of families and concentrate more resources to help us. Someone already mentioned how our tax code discriminates against the family. I think that each parent should have at least some paid leave after having or adopting a child. When I moved back to PA from NJ, I was appalled to learn that State Disability does not cover pregnancy and the early postpartum period. People here only get paid leave if their company provides it!

Anyway, I am very open minded (sometimes to the point of being wishy-washy, I think) and willing to consider other points of view and any solutions brought to the table. I just ask others whose first impulse is to react to try to see things from a different perspective and respect other opinions here.

Thanks,
Paula

[kama'aina mama]

daylily, you are my hero. The wind beneath my wings. A candle in the wind. I could go on and on. Thank you for saying all that so well!

srain also makes the point that I think needs to be the next wave of feminism; true equality. We need to stop holding men to different standards than we do ourselves. We need to empower everyone to make good choices for themselves.

Feminism is not about jobs, at least it is not just about jobs. It is about the myriad ways that women are marginalized or discounted by our society and what has been done and still needs doing to remedy those ills. Like the fact that men are used as the 'medical norm' so many medications that women need have not been adequately studied for their different effects on womens bodies. Like the fact that women caring for young children alone are the largest and fastest growing catagory of people living in poverty. Like the fact that 'no fault divorce' was supposed to help women get out of bad and dangerous marriages and has, instead, made it easier for men to shed their families like a snake shedding it's skin, leaving them in poverty while he goes merrily on his way. THESE are feminist issues and I can't see how addressing them can do anything but improve the family life of everyone involved.

Edited to say: While I was typing the above a bunch of stuff got posted. Maybe we need to ditch this thread and start a new one with a better statement of intent. Maybe one that leaves the word "feminism" out of it.

[paula_bear]

Originally posted by kama'aina mama
Maybe we need to ditch this thread and start a new one with a better statement of intent. Maybe one that leaves the word "feminism" out of it.

Good idea. I started the thread, can I edit it to change the title? Do you have any suggestions? See, I told you I'm open-minded, LOL!

[glh]

"What Our Mothers Didn't Tell Us"

The book was written by Danielle Crittenden. She made some valid points in her book, but one of her main theories was that women should get married at a young age before they start a career, have kids and stay home, then when the children were older go to work. Well, I don't know how getting married younger is going to help with all the problems discussed on this thread. For one thing that is when a husband is going to make the least amount of money. That is what women of my mother's generation did and many of them ended up divorced in mid-life without a career to fall back on.

I have been a part-time working mother, a work-at-home mother, a full-time working mother, and a stay-at-home mom at different times during my almost 18 years as a mom. All these situations had advantages and disadvantage, but being a full-time working mother was very hard for me. Other people are energized by working full-time and may be better mothers because of it. Let's support each other in our choices, the so-called "mommy wars" have been going on since I can remember and we don't seem to be getting past the insults and judgments. Also like me, many of us do not stay in the same situation during our whole mothering career, no matter how we had it all planned.

If anyone wants the book mentioned above, PM me and I will be happy to send it to you.

[pie]

Paula, the subject line of this thread is "What Effect Has Feminism Had On The Family?" Yet you want me to overlook the fact that we disagree on the REASON women are seeking work outisde the home to discuss the effects of it?

Maybe a few women of my generation work outside the home because of feminism. More likely they learned from the mistakes of their mothers and realize that feminism is more than proving you can do everything a man can do and more. It is really about being the best you can be as a woman. THis includes being a mother.

Does anyone here crunch numbers well? I truly believe that it is inflation that is drawing women outside the home to work. I think the non-feminist SAHM's attitude is that working moms are all attorneys and journalists and that their biggest concern in life is messing their hairdo when they bump it on the glass ceiling.

In reality most working moms work as office help, factory workers, retail workers, maids, bus drivers, etc and their biggest concern is getting DINNER on the table and paying the rent.

In the original posts by the first few posters on this thread there was the implication that working moms are judgemental of SAHMs and while this is true I actually find that SAHMs are much more judgemental blaming all the ills of society on families that are unconventional and on working moms. Sorry, that is how I see your views and to me calling feminists and working moms judgemental is the pot calling the kettle black.

Feminism DID NOT FALL SHORT OF MAKING US EQUAL. It has a long way to go. If you think it is the wrong way, do you have any suggestions? Feminism is responsible for a lot more than Ms. magazind and the Gloria Steinem is no longer her voice.

Feminists are out there fighting for worker protection, for equal oppurtunity, for providing birth control to those who need it and more. The working class women I know are not opposed to it and its ideas, but are opposed to say someone like Pat Robertson and HIS ideas.

Of course many many women to not wish to work, but many are forced to because the main breadwinner is not around and many single women are keeping their out-of-wed-lock children, thus having to support them. Our particular state automatically takes the child support out of the fathers paycheck to give to the mother if she has sole custody. I think that is a good idea, but all this has contributed an effect of the family.

NM did you know that the average welfare mom is a divorced mother of two children? That most working mothers do not HAVE out of wedlock children? Most working moms are MARRIED. Where do you think the "main breadwinner" went? I think that frequently he is an abusive fool out spending all the money on strippers and booze.
And I have no idea what automatically deducted child support has to do w the demise of the american family. And I hate to tell you but I truly believe that alternative families are as viable as the nuclear family.

If you want to discuss the effects of two income families on the children of America fine. Do it. But start a new thread that is not so anti feminism if you want me to join in the convo.

[pie]

Just saw your post up there. However, the implications are really getting to me and I am stepping out of this conversation,

[peggy]

I was really hoping we could actually discuss feminism.This issue is so much more than SAHM and WOHM
I keep pointing out that for us to keep fighting over which is best is ridiculous.
Has anyone actually read what I said? Or do you just assume you know what I'm saying after the first line? I'm not against feminism in it's true form. I just feel the point was lost somewhere. Feminism needs to be re-thought and revived. Maybe I am coming from a different place than some of you. I was a teen in the 70's, bra burning and "you've come a long way baby" is what I grew up with. Everything I read back then made me feel to be a true feminist you had to hate men, never get married, never act feminine, never be tied to children etc. I agree some things have been accomplished. We do have many more oppurtunities, but so many things haven''t..We have such a long way to go...

peggy

[sleepies]

i think daycare can be very positive!

i am a stay home mom
by choice

but i see NOTHING wrong with daycare at alllllll.

it teaches kids to share...and to get along...and to follow directions...and to engage in play with other children...teaches them how to behave in a group.

my mom is 65 years old and her mother always worked.

i dont think it is any "new thing" for mothers to work


i believe women are Individuals! first and foremost!

we are human and we have rights to our own lives

[pie]

Peggy, we appear to agree on this. If a new thread is opened I would love to discuss this with you.

sleepies you are right... women have always worked. My grandma had too because they were so very poor.

However daycare in the long run is not alright. Kids need their families. Ideally we could bring our kids to work in slings when they are little provided we do not work around dangerous stuff.