This isn't working!

[oceanbaby]

Disputes between ds1 and ds2 ALWAYS end in ds1 hitting ds2. I've tried letting them work it out. Ds1 hits ds2. I've tried talking them through a solution. Ds1 hits ds2.

Ds1 doesn't care. He really doesn't. He doesn't care what I have to say about it, he doesn't care about how it makes ds2 feel. He is not motivated in any way to come up with a mutual solution, because he can get what he wants by just hitting ds2. He wants ds2 to leave him alone. He hits him, ds2 crys and runs to me, and now ds1 can continue doing what he wants.

Right now they are arguing, and if I don't step in, ds1 will hurt ds2. I am so tired of this I could scream.

[movinmomma]

How about separating them for a time so they each have the toys they like best to themselves? If that isn't an option b/c ds#2 just plain wants to play with ds#1, why not motivate ds#1 by removing the toy or activity he is engaged in and unless he chooses to change his attitude, that toy/activity won't be his to play with for, say a day or so. Would that work? Good luck!

[mamazee]

I've heard three years is a hard age difference because they're not close enough to be real playmates but too close where the older one takes on a caretaking role over the younger one.

Anyway, I guess I'd say that if they can't safely play together they have to play apart. I only have one kid but that's how I've seen friends deal with that issue. I don't think it's unique at all so don't go blaming yourself for it.

[Terrilein]

Well, it seems like DS1 has found the most effective way of removing his brother from his space so that he can play/work undisturbed. I'm sure you've told him that it's not acceptable until you're blue in the face, but what other methods have you recommended to him? Have you taught your DS1 how to distract and re-direct DS2? Have you tried role playing with DS1 to show him how you would handle the situation? Work with him together on this! How about planning an hour every afternoon where he can play undisturbed while you busy DS2? Are there any code words you two can use to indicate an escalating situation? Not that your DS1 should coming running to you everytime his brother bugs him since he needs to learn to handle the situation himself (sans hitting), but if he feels he's on the verge of striking, then calling for your help might diffuse the situation. And then you need to teach DS2 to respect DS1's "me time". And if nothing works, revoke a privilege for a week and extend it if you need to until he understands that you will not tolerate this behavior.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

He wants ds2 to leave him alone. He hits him, ds2 crys and runs to me, and now ds1 can continue doing what he wants.

You chose a second child. Ds1 didn't. Could you provide for the engagement for ds2, so that ds1 doesn't have to fight to obtain space? Introverts (and even us extroverts) need space to be with ourselves without interruption and distraction from little brothers, sometimes. I imagine it is exhausting to be the playmate for ds2. It isn't ds1's job, imo.

They don't have to create a mutual solution. However, how can you facilitate one that meets their needs? Model solutions which address their needs for engagement and space. Facilitate solutions which connect with their underlying needs and give them the language to voice their needs in other ways. If it is a pattern, it can change by addressing the underlying needs.

Is there a certain time of the day which is an issue? I know ds is less able to self engage...oh, about now! If I am trying to get my needs for space concurrently, it is more challenging than if I proactively meet my needs for space earlier, facilitate his engagement in a manner that is mutually agreeable, or set him up with something self-engaging but novel or entertaining. Over time, he is becoming much more self-aware and able to ask for what he needs, rather than just imposing his needs.

I imagine most any 6 year old gets tired of a three year old being around all the time. Most adults get tired of a three year old being around all the time. : Showing each child other ways to meet their needs increases their ability to do so independently. Punishing them doesn't help them know what to do *instead*. And they are young and learning. Learning won't happen immediately, regardless of imposing "consequences".

HTH, Pat


Pat

[oceanbaby]

You chose a second child. Ds1 didn't. Could you provide for the engagement for ds2, so that ds1 doesn't have to fight to obtain space? . . .
I imagine most any 6 year old gets tired of a three year old being around all the time. Most adults get tired of a three year old being around all the time.

See, this is one area I have trouble with. I think more along the lines that this is our family. He is a part of the family, and that family includes ds2. I get tired of the kids around all the time, but I don't smack them. And even though ds1 is only 6yo, I think it is entirely appropriate to expect the same of him. He has never been hit - this behavior has never been modeled for him by his parents (although I will forever regret sending him to preschool for this reason.) He knows he shouldn't do it.

I don't agree that I need to take extraordinary measures to separate the two so that ds1 doesn't hit him. I agree that ds1 should have some space that is respected, as that is something we all need. And he gets some of that. Ds2 still naps for 2 hours during the day. Ds1 often gets time alone with me or dh. But we live in a small house, in the city, I am a SAHM and we homeschool, so yes, we are all together quite a bit.

Rather than expecting me to distract ds2 so that ds1 doesn't hit him, I think it's more appropriate to expect ds1 to behave in a non violent way.

I really don't think punishment is the answer, although I end up doing pseudo-punishments by default.

Ooops, gotta run. More later.

[Diane B]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

He is not motivated in any way to come up with a mutual solution, because he can get what he wants by just hitting ds2. He wants ds2 to leave him alone. He hits him, ds2 crys and runs to me, and now ds1 can continue doing what he wants.

DISCLAIMER: I'm the mom of an only child.

HOWEVER...my daughter's child care center teaches and uses a 6 step conflict resolution process that really seems to work, with kids as young as 2 years old. The key parts in this process that I'm missing from your post are that both children in the conflict participate in finding a solution to the problem, facilitated as needed by an adult. That would mean empowering and teaching DS2 as well, not just being the enforcer with DS1. Here's the link: http://www.kidsandconflict.com/problem_strategies.htm

It's for classrooms, but I don't see why it wouldn't work in a family as well. We have used the process in our home when a friend of Anna's comes to visit, and it's worked for us in that situation.

I have to say, my daughter's school is an amazing place - this process really works, although it's hard to trust it at first. I would say that it takes a few tries to learn, but is ultimately more satisfying to the kids than "winning" or getting their way. It's also important that the adult involved not have an opinion or an agenda about who's right. I have been surprised with my daughter and her friend at some of the resolutions they agree to - not always the ones that seem "fair' to me, but as long as they are both satisfied with the outcome, it's good.

Good luck - hope this is helpful.

[mamaduck]

Oceanbaby, Barbara Coloroso (In "Kids are Worth It") advocates using a "you hit, you sit" approach to hitting/hurting behaviors. So, basically, a time-out. (Sorry!) My kids rarely hit each other (not like what you are describing, anyway) but the handful of times that it has happened -- that is the approach I went with. For my kids, it was a very significant experience. I don't know if thats bad or good -- but it drove home the message that hurting others is very serious business. The way it went was this: The offender needs to walk away from what he is doing, and take some time out. If he needs someone to take his hand and walk him away from his work, that can be done. (He will probably need reassurance that nobody will mess with his stuff while he is taking a break.) He can come back and rejoin the family at whatever point he feels confident that he is in control and will not hit again. The child can choose where to sit, how long to stay there, etc. -- but he does need to stop what he is doing and take this time.

If time outs in any form offend you, then I apologize for suggesting it. (In other words, don't flame me!)

Also -- I do not force apologies, but I do expect my kids to check in with each other in some fashion. A gentle touch, a quick check in to ask "Are you okay?" Or whatever. Often they apologize. Sometimes they will come up with something I wouldn't think of.

Also -- a big "yes!" to what Terrilein is saying about teaching him to redirect his brother, and to approach the problem in a better way. I'd even have him role play this with you.

[BonMaman]

: my lads are 2yo and 4mo, so this topic is of keen interest to me. Sorry to not be of help. Hang in there!