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Why can't she like Polly Pocket and other froo froo stuff? - Page 5

post #81 of 186
She clearly has the right to parent however she wants, and I have the right to think it's ridiculous - and the DCP has the right to not think it's cool to run around taking toys out of a little girl's hands. (Toys which, FTR don't seem to be dominated by the crass commercialism you're talking about. While the OP mentioned Polly Pockets and a couple of princess wash cloths, it seems like the mom has more of an issue with the dress up clothing - but only certain kinds.)

I also think the mother is being disrespectful of this little girl's natural gravitation to certain things (and, not I'm NOT saying that girls inherently want to play dress up in princess clothes - I'm saying that THIS girl seems to be naturally gravitating towards them.) As well, I think what her brother is allowed or not allowed to do is completely relevant in this case - because it demonstrates the double standard underwhich the mother is operating, and under which she wants the DCP to operate.

Would you think we should respect the mother's parenting choice if she didn't want her son playing with baby dolls or her daughter dressing as a firefighter? Would you think the DCP should be obligated to enforce those values in her home, even though she didn't understand them?
post #82 of 186
>> Her place is to do everything within reason to help the children be raised with the same principals that the parents are raising them.<<

that's the thing. is it within reason to expect a person to do extra work (policing every toy a kid picks up, applying different rules, dealing w/ multaple inevitable tantrums when wanted toys are removed which would take at least an hour or two extra spent with just that one child per day) for no extra pay? i don't think so.

perhaps the mom in the thread needs to be more honest with herself about her standards and how to meet them. velochic, you seem to have been very upfront w/ yourself about what you feel you and your children require and have decided not to use daycare because it is your belief that daycare cannot meet the needs you see. looks to work well for you.

the situation is different for people who must work outside the home and use daycare weather they would like to or not. i have btdt and must say that when circumstances make it truly impossible to have what is wanted or borderline needed (my kid won't die if he plays w/ Disney toys but it is sub optimal) then the whole family must stick together and figure out how to make things as good as they can be. the world does not owe me or my son the time, work, and attention it takes to meet all of my desires at all times. that's not what i pay daycare for. i pay them to make sure he's stimulated, not depressed, and still alive when i get off work. i can go so far as to choose a place that will meet the bulk of my ideological wants (we wouldn't use catholic school as we're pagan i would prerfer a place that offered healthier meals) but in a group situation i'm not paying for all my specific wants to be met at all times. that's what SAHM's and private nanny's are for.

one benefit of this set up is that my 3yo is already acquainted with the idea that things are different in different places and that we have ideals as a family. he will learn that the rest of the world doesn't always agree w/ mom and he must learn how to negotiate that. why would i want to pay someone to help teach that lesson? it defeats the purpose. he will need to learn that trusted people who care for and about him have very different ideals sometimes. every choice is a trade off. SAHMs can control their kids environment more readily and that's perfectly acceptable. that's one of the benefits. one of the benefits of daycare though is early experience living and playing in group environments, a safe exposure to the wider world.

that said, it does ruffle my feathers some of the stuff he comes home doing. we just have to deal.
post #83 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal View Post
If the mother was amish, or muslim, or mormon, would we disrespect the mother's wishes for her daughter then?

I would not be willing to enforce different rules for different genders in my home, regardless of the source of those rules. If someone wants their religious beliefs enforced (as opposed to respected), then they should probably find a provider who shares those beliefs. So, I would be willing to refrain from encouraging certain types of play, but I would not be willing to forbid it.
post #84 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
I would not be willing to enforce different rules for different genders in my home, regardless of the source of those rules. If someone wants their religious beliefs enforced (as opposed to respected), then they should probably find a provider who shares those beliefs. So, I would be willing to refrain from encouraging certain types of play, but I would not be willing to forbid it.
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post #85 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal View Post
Stop focusing on the son, and focus on the issue before us. Does this mother have a right to have her preferences respected. I don't see respect here, I see disdain for a mother that is questionable on the basis of how she presents.
It all depends, I never once mentioned the son in my posts, to me it is a simple question of poor choice with high expectations. It is my choice how to raise my child, and it is up to other parents to decide how to raise theirs. Who am I to tell other kids in daycare to stop wearing certain things and to stop playing with certain dolls?

Mind you, I'm speaking from a perspective of DC provider (I want to open one some day ). If I didn't have dress code when I opened up my daycare, then you can't demand from me to tell other parents how to dress their kids!

If you didn't bother to ask about toy policies when you signed up - then sorry, you can't demand from me to eliminate a bunch of stuff, just because you don't like it.

Nor can you demand me following your child around and telling her "ts ts ts.. your mom doesn't want you to play with those toys, there is your stuff in that corner". How does that make sense? It will take me all day long diverting a child from the froo froo stuff, and lets face it, it won't attract her to the toys YOU want your kid to play with.

If it was a religious matter - I would hope the parent would discuss the limits right up front, and I could tell her that I am not able to live up to those expectations, but to demand those changes after the kid is in?!

My religion has nothing to do with how OTHER parents raise their kids. If I want catholic principles to be taught to my kid - I will send them to the catholic school or hs. I will not be demanding public school to read Bible to my child.
post #86 of 186
Can someone show me exactly where this mother asked that things be taken out of her daughter's hands?
post #87 of 186
I think Velochic is probably right that people would be more likely to agree with the mom if she were the OP. Because the mom would undoubtedly do a better job of conveying her point of view and making it sound reasonable. For instance, where the OP said the mom wanted her to discourage her daughter from playing with the girly stuff, the mom might have said that she had noticed the DCP tended to automatically steer the girls toward certain toys, and that she had asked her to try not to do that. (I'm NOT saying I think the OP actually does that.)

It sounds like this mother's attitude is a lot like mine. I don't have an opinion about whether her requests to the DCP are appropriate, but I do feel like she's probably being misrepresented on this thread. For instance, I seriously doubt she wants the DCP to grab girly toys out of her daughter's hand. There are plenty of subtle, gentle ways to try to get a kid more interested in certain toys than in others, and I imagine that's the kind of approach the mom is looking for.

And I totally get why the mom is less bothered by her son wearing girly stuff. I doubt she really cares if either of her kids occasionally puts on a tiara or a tutu. What she probably wants to avoid is having her kids get the message that a) it's important to look pretty, and b) looking pretty means wearing tacky pink sparkly stuff. No matter how much pink sparkly stuff her boy wears as a toddler, the fact is he's just not very likely to get that message growing up in this society. Whereas it may be an uphill battle to keep her daughter from absorbing it. She probably just wants to keep the indoctrination to a minimum.
post #88 of 186
as to the gender issues i do think it's a little confused that the boy has access to all the toys he wants w/o characters on them but the girl, in an attempt to avoid her being disadvantaged later in life by confining to preset gender roles is being placed in the least favored position and the most limited one.

like i said though, it's not abusive or anything, just seems like a strange, counterintuitive call to make.

it seems to me vital for children to explore gender roles early on. my son LOVES makeup but plays w/ it less and less. guess he got whatever he wanted out of the experience. as an adult i have pearls and pretty panties and power tools. i arrived at that place b/c i had access to all options. some women i know live VERy "girly" lives but because they expiramented w/ all options as kids know they are not bound to a paper doll template of womanhood.
post #89 of 186
I still see the issues I bring up being disregarded. "men's clothes" and "why can't she like froo froo stuff?"

Oh well, I give up. It was my mistake to bring up religion, as that isn't the issue, it was simply my way of bringing up how we all want our ways of parenting our children respected by those around us. My MIL most definitely takes my wishes into account whenever she watches our son. I don't ask difficult things, and she does her best.
post #90 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
Would you think the DCP should be obligated to enforce those values in her home, even though she didn't understand them?

It's not just the OP's home, it's a place of business, and the mother in question is a paying customer. If someone in this transaction should be calling the shots, it should be the mother.

Also we should take into account that the toys in question most likely belonged to the OP's child, making it more likely that she is steering girls towards them because if they were ok for her daughter, they should be ok for everyone. Feelings of "my family does it this way in my home" seem to be more prevalant than "this is how I run my busiiness".
post #91 of 186
Quote:
I think Velochic is probably right that people would be more likely to agree with the mom if she were the OP. Because the mom would undoubtedly do a better job of conveying her point of view and making it sound reasonable. For instance, where the OP said the mom wanted her to discourage her daughter from playing with the girly stuff, the mom might have said that she had noticed the DCP tended to automatically steer the girls toward certain toys, and that she had asked her to try not to do that. (I'm NOT saying I think the OP actually does that.)

It sounds like this mother's attitude is a lot like mine. I don't have an opinion about whether her requests to the DCP are appropriate, but I do feel like she's probably being misrepresented on this thread. For instance, I seriously doubt she wants the DCP to grab girly toys out of her daughter's hand. There are plenty of subtle, gentle ways to try to get a kid more interested in certain toys than in others, and I imagine that's the kind of approach the mom is looking for.

And I totally get why the mom is less bothered by her son wearing girly stuff. I doubt she really cares if either of her kids occasionally puts on a tiara or a tutu. What she probably wants to avoid is having her kids get the message that a) it's important to look pretty, and b) looking pretty means wearing tacky pink sparkly stuff. No matter how much pink sparkly stuff her boy wears as a toddler, the fact is he's just not very likely to get that message growing up in this society. Whereas it may be an uphill battle to keep her daughter from absorbing it. She probably just wants to keep the indoctrination to a minimum.
Oh daffodil I LOVE you, thank you for taking the words right out of my brain and expressing them so much more eloquently than it seems I have been able to. I think focusing on the differences between the son and the daughter isn't the point, and NO ONE said the mother was asking the DCP to forbid toys, JUST ENCOURAGE the OTHER stuff. If it were me, I would have my son encouraged to play with dolls, and my daughter cars. I think it's helpful in this society that is SO gender stratified.
post #92 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffodil View Post
I think Velochic is probably right that people would be more likely to agree with the mom if she were the OP. Because the mom would undoubtedly do a better job of conveying her point of view and making it sound reasonable.
I think that is mostly true. However, I'm not sure that most posters would agree with the mom so much as sympathize with her. I think most people would agree that you really can't dictate that much with a daycare provider, and that if she wanted a daycare experience with no characters and no frilly dress-up, she should look into Waldorf.

I, on the other hand, think that Nextcommercial sounds like a wonderful daycare provider, and I'd leave my kids with her anytime.
post #93 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
Mom says "We just hate girly high maintenance things". "It's shallow, and not what we are about. Look at how I dress". (She wears men's clothes)
It is no more shallow than boy stuff. and it may not be what she is about but it is certainly what her little girl is about. and her complete lack of this stuff may well be why her d is so fascinated with it. I know a fair number of boys who get absolutely obsessed with my dds Polly Pockets and sparkely dresses. I mean. . . SPARKLES!!!!! come on, who isn't a little bit mesmerized by sparkely things? She should be happy that her dd is able to be exposed to things at daycare and she doesn't have to mess with them. This way her dd can find some sort of balance without the mom having to be troubled with the high maintenance (huh?) nature of them.

Quote:
I don't want to hijack nextcommercial's thread, but let me explain where I am coming from and perhaps put some different perspective on it. Before I do, I'll state once again that I do believe it's nextcommercial's obligation as a paid care provider to do everything in her power (not buy anything, mind you) to conform to the parent's wishes for their children. It's not her place to decide if the mother is being too controlling or her ideas are weird. Her place is to do everything within reason to help the children be raised with the same principals that the parents are raising them.
That is not her job. Her job is running a daycare and doing what is best for the daycare. if that clashed with some families values they are free to ask for change. the daycare provider is perfectly free to make a judgment call about what they are willing to do so long as she is honest. if it is not suitable to the parents they are free to go else where. also as long as the daycare provider is being honest about what will and will not happen (for example saying "sure we will put the pollys away" and then not doing it is not cool. saying "you are asking too much, that is everyones favorite toy, sorry" is perfectly fine.) they need not feel obligated to change anything. No one is forcing them to leave their children there. group daycare means being part of a group. In my home we watched sesame street after lunch and before nap. One parent said "i don't want my child watching." so i asked if they were going to come take them somewhere during that hour. that was their option. i wasn't going to wrangle one child away from the Tv when everyone else was watching. not to mention I had stuff to do during that hour like clean up lunch, change diapers, make sure the beds were ready for nap etc. if a parent said "I don't want my child to take a nap" then I told they needed to find a daycare that didn't do naps because here everyone napped. There was no way to get 4 kids down for a nap while one was up. there was no way to supervise the one while i was putting the rest to bed. Its fine that they had those wishes but it simply wasn't going to work in my daycare. and I felt no obligation to accommodate them. I guess this could be seen as being bad for business but you lose one person so you can serve the rest better. We own a retail business. some patrons are profit suckers. we really don't mind losing those every now and then. Sure they buy something but they are so high maintenance that we actually end up in the whole by the time they are gone. Some customers are just not worth your time. Same with daycare. the thing with home day care is one customer making you miserable and making demands to be accommodated could effect your ability to care for even your own child as you see fit. And even when i had 4 other 2 year olds at my house things were still done on my dds schedule and to our values. I would rather sacrifice the paltry income that daycare brought in than sacrifice her needs.


and nextcommercial, i was not comparing you to McDs. of course not. It was just looking for an obvious analogy. You are obviously a very compassionate and concerned daycare provider.
post #94 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by meganeilis View Post
It's not just the OP's home, it's a place of business, and the mother in question is a paying customer. If someone in this transaction should be calling the shots, it should be the mother.

Also we should take into account that the toys in question most likely belonged to the OP's child, making it more likely that she is steering girls towards them because if they were ok for her daughter, they should be ok for everyone. Feelings of "my family does it this way in my home" seem to be more prevalant than "this is how I run my busiiness".
As a place of business, the business can choose how they run their business and then accept the consequence of that choice as evident by their patrons staying or going. The DCP has multiple customers, all of whom have a vision of ideal and those visions may very well be in conflict.

The reality is, when we place our children in the care of others, they likely will not do everything precisely as we wish. Compromise is often necessary (obviously not around safety).

Assuming that these children will attend school (given that the mom works), they will likely encounter overly-gendered ideas and representations. This is an opportunity for mom to navigate this when her daughter is open, and could provide opportunities for discussion. I think in that spirit, the OP could try working with the mom to find a way to reinforce the values of the mom in the context of a place where other kids are wearing "froo froo" clothes as their day-to-day attire. I'm sure that if there were no princess dress up clothes another parent would inquire .

Velochic - that's a horrible spot you find yourself in with the school. Have you brought them articles? Literature from whatever health authority exists where you are? Asked them to measure conduct issues before the introduction of this diet versus after (comparative analysis). Grades? Can't you just see the boing after the glycemic load hits, and all the sleepy post-lunch kids!? They could also look at PE performance pre and post (as a proxy for actually weighing the kids, which is problematic). Is there a veg or fruit anywhere on the menu? I would also pose it to them as a business problem - that all evidence indicates that it's predictable that the kids will be negatively affected health wise by such a diet, and it could affect their performance, thereby making the school less desirable in the future.
post #95 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post
So yeah, I think that people who don't live our lives haven't a clue about why we do the things we do, but usually we have good reasons for it. I'd probably say that Nextcommercial is a loving, caring person and THAT is what is most important to these parents. But why do you have to take the bad with the good just because someone else is judging you and saying "you're unreasonable and we don't do it like that so tough titties." This school of dd's is the only one of it's kind. So, what are we doing since they told US "tough titties!"... we're paying that $4 a day and still sending a sack lunch. But it would be really nice if someone would stop long enough to say, "Hey, they must have a good reason... let's listen to them before we judge them."
I see a big difference between food issues and which dress up clothes and toys the little girl plays with.
post #96 of 186
Quote:
If the mother was amish, or muslim, or mormon, would we disrespect the mother's wishes for her daughter then?

I wouldn't in my home because I'm a Christian and would be up front about that from the beginning. If you don't want to have me as your daycare provider because my religious views differ from yours, that is fine, but I am not willing to bend my religion to accomodiate someone elses. That isn't to say that I won't be respectful, and if I have a Muslim or Jewish friend over for dinner I'm not making them a big ham dinner. I'm not going to be callous or rude, but I'm also not willing to compromise my religious principles to accomadate someone elses, NOR do I wish someone to do that for me.
post #97 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal View Post
If the mother was amish, or muslim, or mormon, would we disrespect the mother's wishes for her daughter then?
I can't speak about other religions but the Amish who live plain chose to live separately from the rest of society. Not all the time-many go to McDonalds and shop at WalMart FE-but they chose not to be part of the dominant culture so I don't think this is a good analogy.

I've used daycare too and I do know about not having everything one wants. My kids' school is far from perfect-they are learning a religion that I don't practice. I'm okay with it though.

I am lucky to have more options but even if one is able to homeschool and not use daycare isn't it likely that someone is going to have the wrong toy(s) in their house? Even people who believe strongly in non-commercialism sometimes make exceptions and may have a few "commercial" or inappropriate toys lying around. Or their child may have commercial clothing that the parent has decided to allow.

I really believe in being tolerant of all lifestyles and to me that includes people who let their kids play with the wrong toys. As long as a wide range of toys are provided. I'm not against putting things away sometime but there's only so much one can do. I do think it can get to the point where protecting people from popular culture can just get too unweildy and would infringe on other's rights.

If someone has a zero-tolerance policy towards warplay and they go to the park and see kids playing badguys do they have the right to ask the kids to stop? In some cases I think that would be okay but not in all.
post #98 of 186
What if the mother came in and said she didn't want her daughter to play with cars and trains and only wanted her to play with dolls and tea sets? I bet there'd be more judging about that. I see expecting her daughter to only play with gender neutral or stereotypically boy toys to be just as controlling.

And I wear "men's" clothes, mainly things I've lifted off my husband, and I don't wear makeup. I was a tomboy growing up and never played with girl toys. But I didn't expect to decide for my daughter what her interests should be or make her be more like me. She is her own person and has her own personality and gets to have whatever interests she wants. This is a big deal for me and it isn't something I can remain neutral about, any more than I could remain neutral about someone who was spanking or shaming a child. I don't like any kind of overt controlling behavior over children. I think a parent's job is to help a child find himself or herself, not to try to mold a child into what they want. I recognize that I am judgmental and if it were me I'd probably tell her that maybe my daycare wasn't a good match for her child if those are her expectations.

I have to assume that someone with religious beliefs that clashed with the way I live and the way a daycare i was running worked would choose a different daycare situation. I'm not religious - if someone wanted any kind of religious setting they'd be better off with their kids being somewhere else. But I have no plans to become a child care provider so this is a moot point.
post #99 of 186
Quote:
If someone has a zero-tolerance policy towards warplay and they go to the park and see kids playing badguys do they have the right to ask the kids to stop? In some cases I think that would be okay but not in all.
But this analogy doesn't work in this situation. What does work is, if I send my kid to day care, and express my wishes that I do not want my child engaging in war play, and ask you to discourage it (or even to remove war toys from the toy selection), do you comply? Or do you ask "what can't her child like guns and swords and other warplay stuff?"

I see the OP doing the latter, not the former, which is why I have issue with it.
post #100 of 186
Yes, because all of us girls grow up after wearing pink sparkles and now we are sure to coordinate our spit up with our pink tutus and sparkle tiaras.
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