Consequence for 10yo Stepson

[AlmostAPpropriate]

Ok, so what would you suggest. My Step son is 10. When he was here last we went to the library and I let him check out 2 books to read while he was with us. The night before he left he asked me if he could take them (he was going to his nana's house the next week) and I said no. I explained that I couldnt let him take them out of town because they have to be returned etc... I offered him some of my books (harry potter) to take.

The next am I saw him with them and reminded them that they have to stay. And, yup, you guessed it when I took the books back they were missing. Call up nana and yep, he had them. He came over today and I asked him if he brought the books back. Nope. He said Nana is supposed to be mailing them. Not true, I just got off the phone with Nana. I told him that I would talk to his dad about it when they got home because I didnt want to spoil their fishing trip but that he knows that I asked him to leave the books here. What gets me is he seems totally unconcerned, he lied, took what didnt belogn to him, lost it, and doesnt seem to care. He even came back later and said "I thought my dad said I could take them". Which is likely not true because his dad would i never let him take library books on a trip. So i doubt he asked or if he did he purposely misled his dad. In either case I had already been very clear about his not taking them.

This is one of a pattern of sneaky behaivior from him. I am not really angry but I want to make clear to him that we dont do things this way here.

[mamaduck]

Its hard to judge a pattern of behavior based on one incident. My inclination based on what you have said, is that for some reason having those books were really important to him. I would try to get to the bottom of why it was so important, and process with him a better way to handle it next time. The reason a kid does something like this is so important, and often provides you with the best way to approach solving the problem.

That said -- I think he should pay the fine, or pay to replace the books, and I wouldn't let him use my library card again.

[chfriend]

My family is somewhat fanatical about reading. It wouldn't be a question about whether it was okay to take the book you were reading with you when you went to your grandparents. I'm curious about his needing to ask for your permission to do this. Was it checked out on your card?

Does he have his own library card? If not, it seems like the next time he's with you, you want to ask him to get his own card. That way, you won't be in the position of having to "let" him get some reading material. He'll just get some like the rest of the family.

Since he left the books at his grandparents, I'd suggest to him that he call his grandparents and ask them to mail them back so they can be returned to the library.

I wonder if acknowledging his growing independence might stop some of the sneakiness. If he doesn't have to ask permission to have reading material, he wouldn't need to sneak it with him, right?

[ThreeBeans]

He needs to pay for the missing books, and I agree some consequence needs to be set for lying. It isn't always about 'finding the reason'. A 10 year old is old enough to understand that lying is inherently wrong and causes a person to be distrusted.

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Originally Posted by chfriend

Does he have his own library card? If not, it seems like the next time he's with you, you want to ask him to get his own card. That way, you won't be in the position of having to "let" him get some reading material. He'll just get some like the rest of the family.

I wouldn't let him get his own card, because he needs his parents to be responsible for the card and the books. Not too many 10 year olds have that much money. Those fines can be really steep.

Since he left the books at his grandparents, I'd suggest to him that he call his grandparents and ask them to mail them back so they can be returned to the library.

This along with making him pay the fines is what I would do.

[chfriend]

I'll be able to formulate an opinion on lying and sneaking when I understand why a ten year old is asking his stepmother for permission to check out books and take them to his next destination to read them.

I can't imagine a 10 year old not having their own library card. My 6 year old has one.

[AlmostAPpropriate]

His reason, Im sure, was that he wanted to keep reading them. Its a series that he likes and they were books he hadnt read before.

I didnt let him take them specifically because of what did happen. He lost them. It was too much responsibility to think he could keep track of them when taking them home, to his Nana's, back home, then back here. Because of a careless attitude at his biomoms when it comes to "things" we keep things we provide here. For ex. Biomom has replaced gameboy 5x in one year. We do not have funds for that kind of thing.

Nana has not seen books since he left. I will ask biomom is she has seen but dont expect much.

Its not the losing of them. If I had given permission to take them and he lost them then I would say, oops, you can help pay for the books and forget it. It was the deception that I dislike. He has a habit of taking what he wants, despite being told not to, and then lying or trying to say DH said, or nana said, or whatever.... Ex. He borrowed gameboy from my nephew for the day. (they dont see each other very often) when I took him home that afternoon he asked if he could keep it longer. I asked him, well, what did XX say? "He said it was fine". That sounded odd since nephew has only one gameboy and couldnt be sure when he would see DSS next. I said, well let me call him and ask. "oh, never mind, I dont want to". I went ahead and called, was told "no way, i said he could use it today, I come over and get it later". I equate that to stealing, told biomom about it and was told "oh, well, see his is broken and Im sure he just wanted to play longer". And your point is?? that makes it ok to steal?

[AlmostAPpropriate]

[QUOTE=chfriend;8719804]I'll be able to formulate an opinion on lying and sneaking when I understand why a ten year old is asking his stepmother for permission to check out books and take them to his next destination to read them."QUOTE]

My 3 yr old has a library card, and I did get DSS his own card on that last trip. But I am the signee on the card, responsible for paying. He is not under our supervision most of the time. When he is here he can check out as many books as he wants.

[chfriend]

AP,

If he's got a card and can check out as many books as he wants, where does the phrasing that you "let him check out 2 books to read while he was with us" come from?

What would have happened if you had said, "It's a big responsibility to take the library books to your grandparents, but I know you are up to it. Do you want me to mention that you have them to your grandparents so they can remind you to bring them back home (assuming he thinks of your house as home) or do have another way to remind yourself?"

I'm wondering how many houses is he spending the summer in. His moms, yours and grandparents? Are the three households coordinating to make sure that his stuff makes it on each leg of his journey or is he entirely responsible for that himself?

[mamaduck]

His reason doesn't make it okay. His reason gives you the understanding necessary to coach him on what he could have done instead. So -- if the reason was that he was still reading them and enjoying them, you could suggest that next time he renew them and keep them at home until he returns, or whatever.

Understanding the reason, from his point of view, also makes it easier to be connected to him and have a relationship with him. Doesn't mean there are not problems to solve and things to deal with. Does mean that you are able to walk in his shoes, see things from his perspective, and treat him with empathy and understanding.

So in approach him, I would absolutely start by acknowleging his POV. "I understand you wanted to keep reading those books. I understand that you like those books a lot, and I'm so glad to see you enjoy reading so much. However, there is now a problem between you and me, because you were not honest with me. I need to know how you are going to deal with that problem. And there is also a problem of overdue books, and we need to figure out how you will solve that problem as well."

[AlmostAPpropriate]

Originally Posted by chfriend

AP,

If he's got a card and can check out as many books as he wants, where does the phrasing that you "let him check out 2 books to read while he was with us" come from?

He chose 2 books, if he had chosen 10 I would've said I let him check out 10. As far as the "let" yes, if he had wanted to check out 50, I woul've said that's too many. So to be technical, he can check out as many as he wants within reason.

"It's a big responsibility to take the library books to your grandparents, but I know you are up to it. Do you want me to mention that you have them to your grandparents so they can remind you to bring them back home (assuming he thinks of your house as home) or do have another way to remind yourself?"

He does not think of this as "home" so I dont call it home. I think it's offensive to try to MAKE him think of this as home or create equal feelings of devotion to his dad and this house when we've only been part of his life for 2 years. DSS is very clear about where he calls home and I respect that.

I'm wondering how many houses is he spending the summer in. His moms, yours and grandparents? Are the three households coordinating to make sure that his stuff makes it on each leg of his journey or is he entirely responsible for that himself?

Getting the follow thru on things like this is difficult with biomom, she has a lot on her mind and keeping track of his things is just not a priority. We prefer to not set up circumstances that will lead to conflict.

[SkiMama36]

Originally Posted by chfriend

AP,

If he's got a card and can check out as many books as he wants, where does the phrasing that you "let him check out 2 books to read while he was with us" come from?

What would have happened if you had said, "It's a big responsibility to take the library books to your grandparents, but I know you are up to it. Do you want me to mention that you have them to your grandparents so they can remind you to bring them back home (assuming he thinks of your house as home) or do have another way to remind yourself?"

I'm wondering how many houses is he spending the summer in. His moms, yours and grandparents? Are the three households coordinating to make sure that his stuff makes it on each leg of his journey or is he entirely responsible for that himself?

Oh, give me a break. : The child lied. Period. She is trying to figure out (with the dad) an appropriate consquence for LYING. Just because the child really wants an item, whether to borrow or what have you, does not give them free license to lie to a parent figure (and yes, we as step-parents are parental figures).

While you are trying to figure the "whys" of lying, make sure there are boundaries set as to the "when it happens". While you can make sure you discuss why the child felt the need to lie to you, make sure they understand that lying is not acceptable behavior regardless of who's house it happened at.

My experienced 2 cents worth.

[mamaduck]

The consequence of lying (and being caught) is that people are mistrustful after that. Higher levels of supervision are likely to ensue.

I wouldn't argue that lying is inherently wrong or that lying to an authority figure is more hurtful than lying to anyone else. I wouldn't moralize it at all. I would point out the hurt and distance it creates in situations like this. I would point out that it is often counterproductive and often spirals out of control.

And I still assert that the reason is important. When I screw up, I want the people I hurt to understand my rational (even if I was wrong.) It helps the relationship to maintain that level of understanding.

[captain crunchy]

I just want to comment on the *lying* aspect of it. Don't we confuse our kids all the time about lying and the truth? Don't tell Grandmom you didn't like her casserole, it isn't nice ---- encouraging lying... shhhhhhhh it is so RUDE to comment that someone is fat, or short, or whatever...even if they are .... it isn't nice... encouraging lying... oh santa is real... wait, no he isn't (when they get to a certain age) that was just something we told you so we could have a *magical* christmas... sorry you can't have a snack "the kitchen is closed" and other such lies that many parents feel completely and totally justified in telling their kids their whole lives with a bunch of excuses as to why it is okay...

I am not saying the OP has done this with her ss, just saying it is totally understandable why some children would feel totally fine with telling a lie to meet their needs or wants...

I don't think a child who lies should be labeled *sneaky* and all this -- it is undesirable of course, and something that should be addressed in a calm, reasonable manner, and I agree with the pp that mentioned telling him how lying affected *you* not put a label on whether it is inherently "good" or "bad" ---

Also, if ss has only been in your lives for two years, I imagine seeing as he is 10, there is a whole big old back story to that and though I am not placing any blame, big transitions and such should be taken into consideration.

As for the library incident, I would have avoided the whole thing and let the kid take the books. I would have given grandparents a head's up, would have offered to call the boy before he was set to leave to remind him, would have talked about maybe a central place to leave the books while he was at grandmom's (as in, let's agree you leave them on Grandmom's dining room table when you aren't reading them so you'll remember them or whatever) and if he *still* lost them after all that, I would probably brainstorm a way he could help pay the fees, and/or how he can remember them better next time.

The kid isn't out stealing cars and knockin' over 7-11s.... he forgot some books -- yes, the dishonesty causes a bit of concern and could be a great jumping board to strengthening your relationship depending on how it is handled, but I don't think it's all over because the kid took a library book to his grandmom's house.

[mamaduck]

I wonder if it would help to shift focus away from "How to teach him a lesson about lying," to "How to teach him that it is safe and effective to be honest with us."

The whole idea of imposing a consequence for sneaking/lying behaviors is counterproductive, IMO. It teaches that if you are going to sneak and lie, do it better and don't get caught.

I would discourage my kids froming taking library books on a trip too (because I have a secret horror of loosing library books) but I do think that Chfriend is raising a good point about power. I think kids sometimes form a habit of lying when they feel powerless in general, and lying gives them a sense of control. It works for them. So my goal would be, "How can I empower him, and how can I help him learn that its possible to be powerful and honest?"

I don't think there is a quick fix. I think this child probably has some hurt that will make this a long process for him. Trust is not an easy thing, especially when mistrust has become a habit.

[AlmostAPpropriate]

I certainly dont think its "all over". But I do think his coming back to take the books (which were in the library bag near the kitchen counter) when no one was looking is sneaky. Does that make him a terrible kid, of course not.

And, no, letting him take the books was NOT AN OPTION. They were virtually guaranteed to be lost. And thats not a self-fulfiling prophecy. It is a judgment call based on his history and the availability of the other adults in his life to help him. Had he gone straight from here to his grandmothers (DH's mom) I likely would've said yes. But he went home first, both before his grandmothers and here. Why would I set him up to fail? There are little siblings at home who by his description are always messing with his stuff and a mother with a lot more on her mind than library books.

I did like mamaducks suggestions for a dialogue. Letting him know that his decision created two problems and seeing if he can help come up with solutions.

[chfriend]

I'm trying to understand. I'll give you that a step-parent is a parental figure if it's a place the child calls home. But AP says it is not his home. So, he feels like he's a visitor there. Then a visitor at his grandparents' house.

Maybe I'd understand better if AP can describe some of the other "sneaky" behavior she sees. If the child is spending the summer at a number of different people's houses, expected to follow the varying expectations and to leave behind books he's reading until the next time he visits, I guess I think it's a different situation than if I say, "Honey, I'd rather you not take the library book to church today."

Is the ss spending days at each house? weeks? Are these people he feels close to?

I agree with mamaduck that the response has to have something to do with the reason that he defied his instructions to leave behind the book he was reading.

[chfriend]

AP,

We cross posted. Given the situation you described where he is a few days here and a few days there for the summer, the consequence I would suggest is a trip to the bookstore to purchase him a big armload of books for him to keep as his.

[AlmostAPpropriate]

Chfriend, if money grew on trees around here I would love to do just that. I did offer to let him borrow books that he had previously said he wanted to read, those belonged to me and I was willing to risk their loss.

I gave two examples of what I consider sneaky or deception. This incident, the game boy incident, and numerous incidents of, oh, dad said its ok, or my grandmother, or whatever adult is not in the room, said its ok for me to... watch an R movie, eat 3 desserts, not take a shower. When confronted with the possibility of that person being asked to confirm he decides against it. I think it works at biomoms house because they (she lives with her parents) are so busy that they never cross check with each other. But that doesnt fly here.

According to his therapist, and a counselor we consulted early on when we found out about him, we can and should define for him what is acceptable here vs at his mom's house. We cant make her raise her standards for him according to our values but we certainly arent going to lower ours. FYI, I am not a hard a$$ with him. I generally let a lot go because I know he is in a tough situation. But lying, cheating, dishonesty in general goes very much against our core values.

[chfriend]

AP,

I'm not saying not to communicate that you don't appreciate him making up stories. I think that's important to communicate.

I also think it's important to communicate to him that since you are a parental figure in his life, that you see it as your responsibility to make sure that he has what he needs. And he needs reading material that he can take with him as he is passed around from place to place.

I homeschool my kids and get a lot of books for not very much money at the thrift store, MDC trading post, vegsource and half.com.

It might be a lot of fun for you and him to go to the thrift store and look for books that interest him.

What kind of things is he interested in? I'd love to look through our books and send some to you/him so he can start to build a library of his own.