Organic conversation.

[kellid]

On another site I frequent someone had this response on the topic of organics and it thuroughly depressed me. What do you all think? I am not throwing the towel, I still am not going to support unconciensious farming, however this shocks me for the health of me and my family.

My husband is a environmental chemist. He tests fish, flesh, air, soil, and water in his lab. For the most part everything they test in the way of food (organic or otherwise) comes in with the smae amount of the stuff that will kill you (PCBs and Dioxins) over time. The reason for this is becasue lead and mercury are in the air forever, it doesn't matter what you put or don't put on your soil the really really bad stuff is there regardless. Also in the matter of mass produced organic stuff (sold to major food chains and supermarkets) are usually owned by some one like Del Monte (or another large seller) and they have realized that they can charge more for organics, so half their farms are organic and the other half is not...so they spray the non-organic stuff and the air does what? carries itr over to the organic stuff. Then there are things like organic bananas ... it doesn't matter if you have had those srayed or not, you don't eat the peeling where they sprays live, they do not penatrate the peeling (remember the soil is already contaminated, hence the fruit is already affected.)

[tripleblessed]

I strongly disagree. Sure, all soil is contaminated to some degree...but organic soil is clearly much LESS contaminated! Which veggies do you want to eat from? I also believe in order to be certified organic land/soil takes years before it's able to be certified...so all soils are NOT contaminated. For example..at our farmers market someone sells blueberries that she can not say are organic because her land has not been certified...so she can just say that she only uses organic fertilizers...make sense?

another thought...we get our milk and dairy products from a certififed organic farm - raw milk. It takes years for not only the land the cows graze on to become certified but the cows themselves..I know at least a cow's mother had to be organically fed for the calve to be considered for organic products. I could go on and on but don't have the time! Don't believe it! Have you read Natural Cures by Kevin Trudeau? It is really eye opening to what actually goes on in the industry and the government..and must read..changed our lives!

[Denvergirlie]

it is unfortaunate that organics don't necessarily mean that they are free from all the "bad things".

DDT hasn't been used in the USA in ages, but it's still often in mother's breast milk, containmation of the soil. It takes some 15+ years for this stuff to break down in the soil alone. It doesn't take 15 years for soil to be "certified" organic by the goberment.

Likewise, lots of organic grops are being contanimated by GMO's, by the wind transferring pollen of GMO's to non GMO crops.

Granted, organic should afford you better and healthier food, but it is not pure, and more than likely never will be.

http://www.saveorganicfood.org/

[wannabe]

I strongly disagree too.

It's not just mercury, PCBS, etc. They're pervasive, anyway.

What about the runoff form over-use of superphosphate that poisons rivers? And who really cares if you throw away the peel of the banana - the point is they mucked up the ecosystem by spraying, not so much if you're getting a residue.

I have issues with industrial organic practices - I think you'd be better off using glyphosate to kill weeds before planting rather than taking two or three passes over the soil and tilling. That is just hell on the soil, it's really bad, and leads to things like poor water penetration, poor water rentention, poor root ball depths, etc, etc. The problem is that things that work in small farms or gardens (like leaving the weeds there in between the vegetables) don't translate to a lot of broadacre horticulture or agriculture. But there are middle grounds - like a permanent turf cover around perennial crops like trees or grapes rather than bare ground.

[pixiewytch]

I know how overwhelming it can be at times, believe me.

As PP said, I think I would rather have the soil using organic gardening methods vs. chemical methods if I had to choose. Sure, it is going to take a long, long time to reverse the pervasiveness of all these chemicals on our food but we all have to do something collectively. It is reasonable to say that maybe in our generation we won't change the soil composition or air or water quality enough but maybe we can leave something better for our children and grandchildren. I would try to see it that way.

As for organic food, you are right. There was a recent article in Mother earth news about this. Now that the corporate food chains have jumped on the organic bandwagon, they are trying to loosen organic regulations. I was disappointed to hear this too but I haven't stopped buying organic. I'm just more vigilant about what brands I buy. I don't buy del monte anymore or any big name brand of organics. I stick to the smaller family farm type of chains. Also look for the certified by oregon tilth label which has more stringent guidelines than just USDA organic. Of course these brands will probably cost more than your big brand store organic variety, but you get what you pay for, right?

As for fruits and vegetables, use a little common sense. You are right that the pesticides do not penetrate the thick skinned fruits and vegetables so much. This should be good news for those of us on a budget because we can pick and choose which organic produce to buy instead of buying it all! Fruits like berries, tomatoes, grapes, lettuce, or anything else with no skin or very thin skin is awfully susceptible to pesticides. So there you go. I don't see that as bad news at all. At least we know that some aren't as toxic as others ,right?

All in all, it sounds like your friend may be a bit pessimistic and trying to dismiss environmental causes for his or her own agenda. I could be wrong but it is the same type of rhetoric I hear from the right all the time. :

[tibdoml]

One other thing to consider, Organic foods are not just about the chemicals. It is also about healing the enviornment, crop rotation, lowering pollution, and treating animals decently, even in death for consumption.

Eating organic foods is as much about chemical free as it is about the most envornmentally friendly way to produce food.

We eat organic food for our health and for the earth's heath

[reducereuserecycle]

totally disagree-period.

[AngelBee]

:

[Katheda]

I was just at the library today reading a nutrition action newsletter and the front page story was about this. It said that most of the banned pesticides are long lastign and show up in all food products, orgnic or not, because of the "background" pollution. They also said that the cross pollution from nearby conventional farms also shows up BUT these chemicals show up at significantly less concentrations. It makes complete sense to me. The Earth is basically one very large closed system and what happens in one part fo the planet does have repercussions elsewhere.

Here is the link to the source that I read about today:

http://www.cspinet.org/nah/index.htm

[OceansEve]

I'm not surprised to hear such a thing from a chemist. Most in the scientific community hate natural living ideals and do not look for positives in such a lifestyle. After all chemists are the ones who got us into this mess, not sure I would trust one even now, probably more concerned with keeping his job options open than being honest.

[ranchchic]

Yes--as stated many times--it is true, there is still plenty of junk in organic food. However, I feel it is VERY important to support farms that are trying to preserve the earth. The earth can only handle so many chemicals before it won't be able to produce anything. Protect what you can for the future of your children and grandchildren.!

[Katheda]

Originally Posted by OceansEve

I'm not surprised to hear such a thing from a chemist. Most in the scientific community hate natural living ideals and do not look for positives in such a lifestyle. After all chemists are the ones who got us into this mess, not sure I would trust one even now, probably more concerned with keeping his job options open than being honest.

ouch,
that's kinda really insulting to someone who had her schooling in chemical enginering. Hmmm, most people that I went to school with and worked with were very much into natural living ideals. It's truely hard NOT to when you know the truth.

but, whatever bigotry floats your boat...

I wonder, do you actually know any chemists? really?

[annethcz]

Originally Posted by tibdoml

One other thing to consider, Organic foods are not just about the chemicals. It is also about healing the enviornment, crop rotation, lowering pollution, and treating animals decently, even in death for consumption.

Eating organic foods is as much about chemical free as it is about the most envornmentally friendly way to produce food.

We eat organic food for our health and for the earth's heath

This exactly. For me, buying organic is not really about the pesticides that we may or may not be ingesting. I buy organic in an effort to support sustainable farming. I do some research regarding where my food is coming from, and choose to purchase certain organic products over others, based on the company's ideals and business practices.

[Sustainer]

It's propaganda.

The fact that chemical farming causes some contamination of organic crops simply means that chemical farming should be banned and all crops should be required to be organic.

[iowaorganic]

Originally Posted by wannabe

I strongly disagree too.

It's not just mercury, PCBS, etc. They're pervasive, anyway.

What about the runoff form over-use of superphosphate that poisons rivers? And who really cares if you throw away the peel of the banana - the point is they mucked up the ecosystem by spraying, not so much if you're getting a residue.

I have issues with industrial organic practices - I think you'd be better off using glyphosate to kill weeds before planting rather than taking two or three passes over the soil and tilling. That is just hell on the soil, it's really bad, and leads to things like poor water penetration, poor water rentention, poor root ball depths, etc, etc. The problem is that things that work in small farms or gardens (like leaving the weeds there in between the vegetables) don't translate to a lot of broadacre horticulture or agriculture. But there are middle grounds - like a permanent turf cover around perennial crops like trees or grapes rather than bare ground.

jumping on soap box...

Yum yumm roundup! : Are you a farmer or an expert on soil tilth? Guessing not. But I am a farmer- an organic one and I firmly believe in tillage. Iron works. We are the only organic farmers around and our farms are the first that absorb the rain. we have minimal ponding in an area that has a lot of ponds. Also- I have never had weeds inbetween my veggies in my garden- I use a living benifitial mulch of hairy vetch. That stuff is amazing and worth its weight in gold for the roots that it can grow. Alfalfa too.

I would rather drink a little dirt in my water than drink a quart of lorsban or roundup. Geez. think. If you know how to do it- then do it yourself and quit counting on folks like me to feed you.

steps off soap box.

[OceansEve]

gool - yes I do know plenty of chemists from college and it is rare to find one without a stick in a dark place when it comes to these issues, an open minded one is hard to find, though I will admit they do exsist, the few I know oddly enough no longer work in this profession. My statement is from experience not bigotry. I have found most feel you need to bend down and kiss their ass for saving your life with all they do.

That is great you are one of the decent ones, but you can't tell me that majority of your profession does not have this mentality. I hate that you took offense, but you are among the few when there are notable flaws with the many.

iowa - I would love to hear more of your soapbox rant

[Katheda]

OceansEve,
perhaps it is a regional thing (the midwest and south east) or maybe even an "area of emphasis" thing since the most natural minded people I have met have been chemical engineers.
Of course, I also know a lot of medical doctors who are highly critical of the way that health care is practiced in this country. I've never been made to feel uncomfortable tandem nursing in public. I haven't ever had issues with my children's really delayed vax schedule (um, still putting it off ), haven't ever had issues about my son not being circumcised.

The only thing I have had issue with is lay-people trying to diagnose my kids to be on the spectrum when they aren't.

Maybe I'm just lucky and only attract the cool kids or maybe the people that you run into know to not even bother talking to hippie old me and so I've never had to deal with them. At any rate, sorry you got the short end when it came to chemist friends, really, there are a lot of way cool chemists out there, I never had to really look hard for them but that could have been just me.

and for general clarification,

Back to the original issue and article, the one that I read and posted the link to, the problem is that there are trace mounts of pesticides in ALL foods, orgaincally produced or not, due to the persistant nature of certain pesticides that have been banned for MANY years. The article that I linked to mentioned that the overall presence of pesticides is significantly smaller BUT STILL PRESENT in organic foods.

This makes sense to me, as someone who studied chemistry, that these particular chemicals would stick around for a while and would find their way into our food supply.

AT NO TIME did I explicitly say or imply that organic farming was therefore "not worth it". If I thought that way, I wouldn't be spending so much of my paycheck supporting organic farmers and organic farming practices. I merely said that I read something similar and it makes sense to me.

[snowbunny]

That quote doesn't mesh with the actual studies I've read. Time and time again, conventional produce contains more chemicals and other nasties than does organic. Organic produce has fewer chemicals, and better overall nutrition than does conventional. One study I recall analyzed the overall serum levels of a particular pesticide in children who were fed organic diets and children who were fed conventional diets. The organic-eating kids had, unsurprisingly, lower levels of pesticides in their bodies than the conventional-eating kids.

Regarding the huge agri-businesses and their organics, it just reinforces the need for consumers to mindfully purchase directly from farmers at farmers markets and farm stands or through CSAs.

[OceansEve]

That's exactly what I began wondering today gool, where on earth do you live? I think I need to visit, because everything you just mentioned are issues here! I finally found (through a friend of a friend of my sister) a doc that isn't trying to scare me into vaxing. And even he said, "please don't go telling everyone." He is afraid of the repercussions. Anyway, nothing really to say On topic sorry for taking up space

[Katheda]

Originally Posted by OceansEve

That's exactly what I began wondering today gool, where on earth do you live? I think I need to visit, because everything you just mentioned are issues here! I finally found (through a friend of a friend of my sister) a doc that isn't trying to scare me into vaxing. And even he said, "please don't go telling everyone." He is afraid of the repercussions. Anyway, nothing really to say On topic sorry for taking up space

I know it's not OT but I feel compelled to answer
Grew up in Minnesota and went to the University of Minnesota (Twin Cities campus) altough I did take my first 2 years at community college where it was the chemistry department that really was responsible for me going "natural" (shockingly, I wasn't raised per Mothering standards ). I worked for a while in the field and then married my husband, got pregnant and stopped working a paid job and moved around the country with him for his job (also ChemE) and we have lived in the Hampton Roads area of VA; the Triangle area of NC (excellent community); the Lowcountry area of SC and currently CT.

Thay all have had their strong suits. CT has been the easiest to homeschool in although there aren't nearly as many homeschoolers as SC. NC had the best medical community choices. SC has lots of good local foods that are organically grown but not certified due to expense of certification.

gotta run...