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# Multiplication Tables - Gone? - Page 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Oriole I'm not sure I understand your argument. Most people don't quote Shakespear on a daily basis, most people don't speak two languages, most people don't look up how many electrons in a given atom, does that mean we need to stop teaching those things at school?
Dude.. that is because I was only stating the fact that most people don't RETAIN THIS INFORMATION. No argument. A simple statement of fact.

And just because you don't know the multiplication tables off the top of your head, does not mean you cannot do simple math without a calculator. I do it all the time.

BTW, it would make more sense, to count by 5's nine times then try to add 9, 5 times.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by aniT Dude.. that is because I was only stating the fact that most people don't RETAIN THIS INFORMATION. No argument. A simple statement of fact.
I think when you say most people you are talking about Americans. And it is not a very good reflection on our education system that fails with the very basics. Most people in civilized countries do retain this information, because education system ensures that the very basics of mathematics are covered well enough to be retained for life.

I am not suggesting that students are at fault here, I am suggesting that mathematics are in the dumps. And it takes a lot more than a "fluffy" math program with little fun bears and origami folding to bring it up to speed with the rest of the world.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by aniT BTW, it would make more sense, to count by 5's nine times then try to add 9, 5 times.
To me it makes sense just to learn it well 9x5=45, and be able to recall without going back to addition. (if you should insist on addition, unless you have trouble adding 9s, it should take less time because you would be only counting by/adding five numbers vs. nine numbers if you are working with 5s).

9, 18, 27, 36, 45

is shorter than...

5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Oriole I think when you say most people you are talking about Americans. And it is not a very good reflection on our education system that fails with the very basics.
Please give me an example of something that is a good reflection on our education system.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Oriole To me it makes sense just to learn it well 9x5=45, and be able to recall without going back to addition. (if you should insist on addition, unless you have trouble adding 9s, it should take less time because you would be only counting by/adding five numbers vs. nine numbers if you are working with 5s). 9, 18, 27, 36, 45 is shorter than... 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45
Yep it takes much longer to add nines.. even if you are adding less numbers that it does to simply count by 5's.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by aniT Please give me an example of something that is a good reflection on our education system.
Resources and possibilities, as well as certain flexibility that I didn't have growing up within a different system..
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Oriole Resources and possibilities, as well as certain flexibility that I didn't have growing up within a different system..
I have never witnessed this flexibility. All schools I have been too/my kids have attended it is basically do our way or go to hell attitude.
Some kids can't memorize them. Yet, they are very good in math. Don't make it something seh feels like a failure because she can't do fast recall.

I do think memoring them helps kids/adults later on. Speed really helps on other math. Most people do remember multiplication tables for life if they use it frequently. They will use it frequently through out their education. I sale flooring. I use math daily. My \$%@ boss frustrates me because he can't do multiplication with out a calculator. 4 boxes of tiles at 11.95.......he cannot round out to 12 and say/think 4x12= 48. I have wanted to grab him and ask him if he ever learned him multiplication tables.

I do agree that both understanding and rote drill an kill is important. With a balance of kids ability. Even if she was being taught in school the rote would have to be reinforced at home.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by aniT I have never witnessed this flexibility. All schools I have been too/my kids have attended it is basically do our way or go to hell attitude.
I think it is a matter of perspective, depends on what you compare US with. I'm speaking from the experience of living in another country and spending last year of my schooling in the US.

And no, marsupialmom, I don't think a child is a failure because they can't recall math facts, everyone has strength and weaknesses, and learning disabilities is a real thing. However, I would consider it a mark of good education system that ensures that those kids who can - do know their facts for life.
I have to say that I hate reform math with a passion. We are supplementing with Singapore.

I cannot believe that MOST Americans don't remember their multiplication or division tables. I certainly do. AniT, how do you calculate sale prices in stores when it says 30% off of a \$27 item? How do you decide how many packages of paper plates to buy for the class picnic if there will be 20 kids, 1 teacher, 6 parent helpers, 8 siblings, and the plates come in packages of 8? Do you carry a calculator with you all the time? I don't mean to be snarky, I really want to know.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by quietplease I have to say that I hate reform math with a passion. We are supplementing with Singapore. I cannot believe that MOST Americans don't remember their multiplication or division tables. I certainly do. AniT, how do you calculate sale prices in stores when it says 30% off of a \$27 item? How do you decide how many packages of paper plates to buy for the class picnic if there will be 20 kids, 1 teacher, 6 parent helpers, 8 siblings, and the plates come in packages of 8? Do you carry a calculator with you all the time? I don't mean to be snarky, I really want to know.
I guess on the percentage. 10% would be \$2.70 so I wold guess it would be around \$7 something. Apparently it is \$8.10. It really isn't important enough to me to be exact in that situation.

There is a calculator on my cell phone but I rarely use it.

Lets see the paper plates.. that is 35.... If they come in packets of 8 you would have to buy 5. Cause 8X4 is 32 therefor you would have to buy 5.

I "can" add and subtract. I can multiply and divide. You don't have to have table memorized to be able to do basic math functions. (and I have never seen a division table.) My DH seemed to think you have to have them memorized to do math too. That simply is not true.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees However, even when I look back on my own education, I don't recall ever being taught mental math techniques.
You don't need to use mental math to add without a calculator - you just need paper & pencil, and to know your times tables up through 9x9
Quote:
 Originally Posted by crayolaab You don't need to use mental math to add without a calculator - you just need paper & pencil, and to know your times tables up through 9x9
You don't need to memorize your times tables. You can figure it out. :
Quote:
 Originally Posted by aniT You don't need to memorize your times tables. You can figure it out. :
It's a heck of a lot more efficient to just remember. I know 12x12 = 144. It takes me a second. If I had to add 12+12+12+12+12+12+12+12+12+12+12+12 = 144 it would sure take a lot longer.

I studied math in college, I do math for a living... if I didn't know basic multiplicative facts my courses & job would be a whole lot harder. I'm not saying it is for everyone - ok maybe some people can't memorize - but you should at least give all students the opportunity to learn. I can't believe some of the math curricula my teacher-friends are required to use. It's really sad.

MTA: I was actually responding more to correct what I thought was a misunderstanding earlier in this thread - which was that I didn't think this comment "I used to teach accounting at a technical college and I was horrified at the vast number of students who could not calculate percentages at all, could not add two 2-digit numbers without whipping out a calculator, didn't know what a numerator/denominator was, etc." meant that the poster expected her students to be able to add 2-digit numbers in their head, but rather add them without a calculator (using paper/pen).
Quote:
 Originally Posted by aniT You don't need to memorize your times tables. You can figure it out. :
The point is not that you can't figure it out, the point is that math is about finding the most efficient solution to any problem. Multiplication is a more efficient way of solving the problem. If we are to talk concepts vs. rote memory - well here is a concept, what is faster 9 x 7 or 9+9+9+9+9+9+9?

From mathematical point of view, no problem that involves multiplication of low numbers, should require a longer route of going back to addition.

The minute you reverse to addition, you are not doing what mathematics is all about - you are not looking for the best possible solution, and as a math teacher (that I am), I want my kids to always see their options, and be able to find that best solution. Without math facts - you have only one way of solving the problem, why would you want to limit a kid with only one solution vs. providing him/her with two?

Last time I took a math course was in high school (and last time I took a rigorous math course was when I was 16). I was able to pass teacher's licensure test in MA without taking one single math course through college, and breathed through it. I'm not sure why you are defending limiting American education to lower standards... They are low as it is...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Oriole Last time I took a math course was in high school (and last time I took a rigorous math course was when I was 16). I was able to pass teacher's licensure test in MA without taking one single math course through college, and breathed through it. I'm not sure why you are defending limiting American education to lower standards... They are low as it is...
I am not. I never said I was. I never implied I was. I have stated this more than once.

I am pointing out that not everyone can retain this information, and just because you don't have your multiplication tables memorized, does NOT mean you cannot do math.

There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding that if a person does not have multiplication tables memorized they cannot figure out how many paper plates to buy or get close to what 30% of 27 is.

Not knowing multiplication tables does not equal an inability to do math. It might take me longer than you, but I can still get there, without a calculator.

And just for the record.. I would not do 9+9+9+9+9+9+9 to figure out 9x7. I know 9x5 is 45 so I would do 45+9+9 to get to 63. I do know SOME of them off the top of my head. But I did not retain most of this information.

Also, as I said, my daughter was never taught her multiplication tables but she is in advanced math. Apparently she figured out tricks on her own.

Like for her 9's. Say 9X8. You take one away from the 8 to get 7. 7+2 = 9 therefor the answer is 72.

9X6. 6-1 =5 5+4=9 the answer is 54 This only works up to 10 however. But that she figured this out on her own impressed the hell out of me.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by crayolaab You don't need to use mental math to add without a calculator - you just need paper & pencil, and to know your times tables up through 9x9
True enough, but my point was that by 2nd grade math, children in Singapore, Japan, and elsewhere are expected to be able to do 2 digit addition and subtraction mentally (and in subsequent grades add or subtract a 2 digit number to any other number). The algorithms and tricks aren't difficult to learn, and the skill is a handy one.
I was a third grade theacher for five years, and I have worked for years in elementary school.

Let me tell you that children can take up to one to three years to memorize the times tables, but UNTIL THEY DO, they cannot learn any more arithmetic. All of the arithmetic after the times tables is based on the times tables.

Think of it:

geometry
formulas
ratios
division
measurement
transferring to other number bases
fractions
percentages
decimals
exponents
fulcrums
algebraic statements

I made it fun for all of my students, but they left my class knowing all of their times tables. There are fun ways to teach the times tables, but they have to be learned.

The twos, the fives, the sixes and nines all have a fun component.

I am always sad when I sub in a sixth grade math class and no one can remember their times tables. The last one everyone seems to learn is 11x12=132.

It is easy. For all two digit numbers times eleven, take the number being multiplied by eleven:

12

1 - 2

1 + 2 = 3

put the sum of two numbers that are multiplied by eleven between the two numbers, and you have your product.

1 3 2, 132!

Try multiplying 53x11

5 - 3

5 + 3 = 8

11x53=583!

11x35=385!

I solved it! It is fun.

For numbers time eleven as, say, 99?,

11x99=?

9 + 9 = 18

drop the 8 in the middle of the 9 - 9 and "carry" the one to the 9 in the hundreds column and add the one to nine.

1+
9 - 8 - 9

11x99=1,089

Works every time.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by applejuice I was a tahird grade theacher for five years, and I have worked for years in elementary school. Let me tell you that children can take up to one to three years to memorize the times tables, but UNTIL THEY DO, they cannot learn any more arithmetic. All of the arithmetic after the times tables is based on the times tables. Think of it: division measurement transferring to other number bases percentages decimals exponents fulcrums algebraic statements I made it fun for all of my students, but they left my class knowing all of their times tables. There are fun ways to teach the times tables, but they have to be learned. I am always sad when I sub in a sixth grade math class and no one can remember their times tables. The last one everyone seems to learn is 11x12=132. It is easy. For all double digits times eleven, take the number being multiplied by eleven: 12 spread it out 1 - 2 add the two numbers 1 + 2 = 3 put the sum of two numbers that are multiplied by eleven between the two numbers, and you have your product. 1 3 2, 132! Try multiplying 53x11 5 - 3 5 + 3 = 8 11x53=583! 11x35=385! I solved it! It is fun.
so 11X134

would be

1+3+4=8 so the answer is 1,348? nope. oh you put it in the middle.. how would that work with more than 2 numbers? or does it?

gotta go to the bank. (btw..they did not teach tricks when I was in school. It was just memorize, memorize, memorize. Then if you didn't.. you had to figure a way around it.)
NO! I said that it only works with any two digit number times eleven.

as for 11x134 =

I suppose you can line it up this way and add:

0134
134
1474

I am not sure how that will look turn out once I click on the post button....

I will correct the confusing language, sorry...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by aniT I I am pointing out that not everyone can retain this information, and just because you don't have your multiplication tables memorized, does NOT mean you cannot do math.
I have agreed in many posts that learning disabilities is a real thing, however, the OP was talking about general lack of instruction on rote memorization of multiplication tables. Majority of kids CAN memorize them. Period. If they don't - it's because of poor instruction.

It comes down to this:

Can you do math without memorizing the tables? YES

Will someone be performing at higher level (finding better solutions, and working through problems faster) than you if they know their tables? YES

Do we need a curriculum that skips multiplication tables because "they are not needed to do math?" NO
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Oriole I have agreed in many posts that learning disabilities is a real thing, however, the OP was talking about general lack of instruction on rote memorization of multiplication tables. Majority of kids CAN memorize them. Period. If they don't - it's because of poor instruction. It comes down to this:Can you do math without memorizing the tables? YES Will someone be performing at higher level (finding better solutions, and working through problems faster) than you if they know their tables? YES Do we need a curriculum that skips multiplication tables because "they are not needed to do math?" NO
I do not have a learning disability.

I don't believe that the reason certain kids don't retain this information is due to poor instruction. I believe it is the individual learning style of the student.

Yes schools should teach the multiplication tables...
No schools should NOT hold back students who fail to memorize them but can still do the math problem.
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