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Multiplication Tables - Gone? - Page 5

post #81 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
I disagree. Of all the things I've had to memorise in my life (like the times tables, the structures of amino acids, etc), even partial recall helps me. And I only have partial recall because I knew them well when I did memorise them. I might not remember 8x5, but I remember 9x5, and minus 5. It allows me to do the maths in my head where I couldn't multiply 9x5 without a pen and paper. I remember that glycine's the simplest aa. I remember tryptophan is funky, and proline bonds weirdly and cysteine has a sulphur in it. They're all useful things that I only know because I had to memorise the whole kit and kaboodle at one point. If I'd only had to recognise them I'd remember nothing.
You disagree with what? The point of my poll?

It was previously stated that everyone can learn and memorize the entire multiplication table and retain it. Unless of course you have a learning disability. I am pointing out that even if it is taught, many people do not retain this information.

I agree with you that knowing part of it is helpful. That is how I function. I am responding to those who think everyone can learn and retain the entire thing.
post #82 of 118
Well... I'll never get why "not knowing" is being defended here.
I'll be sure my kids are "in the knowing" section though.
post #83 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
Fine you have a "majority." A slim majority. And I don't believe in anyway that your slim majority (at this moment) equals the statement that was made earlier.
Ummm, a "slim" majority has a ratio of substantially less than 2 to 1. A slim majority would be more like 53-47.

This is all getting a bit silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
My whole point is..many many people and the majority of the people I know do not retain this information.
But that isn't all you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
My original point being, most kids I know are never able to memorize the times tables. Teaching them how math works is more important than making them sit there and memorize something they are going to forget as soon as they memorize it anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
I am not saying people should not memorize the multiplication tables, what I am saying however is that in my experience, that information is not retained by most people.
Can we now agree that most people who learned their tables retain them and that most people can learn them?
post #84 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
That might explain people like my 14 year old DD who is in advanced math, a TAG student.. but was never taught the multiplication tables.

However it does not explain what I am talking about. People like me who WERE taught this information but forgot it once the test was over.
I have two things to respond to this...

The impression that I have is that before it was all about rote memorization (your era?), and now it's all about concepts (your daughter's era). Mathematics have never found balance here between the two, and without the balance you still end up with mediocre math education.

I don't mean to make you feel bad about TAG or anything, but math instruction is seriously behind. And what American schools deem high level courses are not all that high when compared with other places.

I was an average students (Bs, and Cs) when I was back "there", and even struggling with speaking different language I managed 98% in my Calc class without studying at home whatsoever (vast majority of the class ended up with Ds). Did I mention that I wasn't a star student back at home? Yet I graduated on high honor roll, because I had no problems memorizing material. Other students didn't seem to know how to commit something to memory (I soooo should start another thread on this topic hehh).

I think you are starting to feel defensive on this topic, and I don't mean to bash anyone really.
post #85 of 118
My reading of this thread is that there have been lots of mistakes made in the teaching of mathematics in the last fifty years, which goes back to my beginning in school.

When I was in fourth grade, they threw out the old arithmetic books and put in the "New Math" which was an exercise in philosophy because it was suggested by a philosopher. This is why engineers rebelled everywhere and men as retired USAF John Saxon published his math textbook series embraced by homeschooler everywhere and banned by the LAUSD as being too simplistic.

It is important to learn the basics. To memorize the times tables, to understand them, yes, but to memorize first, because understanding comes when you learn them and master the times tables. They are fun, they are magical, and they are a joy to learn, but one must learn them.
post #86 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees View Post
Ummm, a "slim" majority has a ratio of substantially less than 2 to 1. A slim majority would be more like 53-47.

This is all getting a bit silly.

But that isn't all you said.





Can we now agree that most people who learned their tables retain them and that most people can learn them?

Umm No we cannot agree to that. I think a very large percentage of people do not retain this information. I also said most people I know
do not retain it. I did not say most people in the freaking world.

Yes this is getting silly. You are nit picking my every word.

I do not agree that most people who learned them retained the information. I will only give you that after about 16 hours of a poll 67.2% of the people on MDC that have voted on the poll retained it. That is still not most people in my opinion.
post #87 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
I have two things to respond to this...

The impression that I have is that before it was all about rote memorization (your era?), and now it's all about concepts (your daughter's era). Mathematics have never found balance here between the two, and without the balance you still end up with mediocre math education.

I don't mean to make you feel bad about TAG or anything, but math instruction is seriously behind. And what American schools deem high level courses are not all that high when compared with other places.

I was an average students (Bs, and Cs) when I was back "there", and even struggling with speaking different language I managed 98% in my Calc class without studying at home whatsoever (vast majority of the class ended up with Ds). Did I mention that I wasn't a star student back at home? Yet I graduated on high honor roll, because I had no problems memorizing material. Other students didn't seem to know how to commit something to memory (I soooo should start another thread on this topic hehh).

I think you are starting to feel defensive on this topic, and I don't mean to bash anyone really.
Honestly, TAG is just a label around here that means a child is at a higher level than the rest. Yes the education in the US is mediocre. When we moved to Oregon from Cali I was under the impression that the schools were better, but they were not. They were WORSE. And I went to a school assembly. 45 students received honor roll. 22 of those students received a 4.0. The principal was gushing about how smart these students were. I did not see that. I saw a school that was not teaching anything to these students which is why they were getting such high grades. THEY ALREADY KNEW IT! My daughter included. She was bored to death in 6th grade math. She was supposed to be in Algebra but the teacher kicked all the 6th grade students out of his class. Not because they couldn't do the algebra, but they didn't have the discipline or maturity that the 7th and 8th graders had. I was really POed and the school wouldn't do crap. I fought and entire year to get her doing TAG work and they just keep babbling "we don't have funding for TAG." It's just a label.. nothing more.

I have to go get my son.. however...I have said my point over and over again. I wont bother re-stating it.

And applejuice.. copying multiplication tables down over and over again IS BORING! No wonder no one retains this information.
post #88 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
Well... I'll never get why "not knowing" is being defended here.
I'll be sure my kids are "in the knowing" section though.
Sigh.. you cannot force people to retain information. It's not like a computer where you can push save and there it is forever. Memorization just does not stick with some people.
post #89 of 118
Quote:
And applejuice.. copying multiplication tables down over and over again IS BORING! No wonder no one retains this information.
Some do. I know it is boring. When I was in school we had to memorize things from the cathechism every week all through eight years of religious school...some were better at it than others, I know, but it does not mean it should not be a way, ONE WAY to learn.

I feel sorry that your DD got kicked out of the TAG program. Here we call it the GATE program. That is why parents throw up their arms and simply homeschool their children and/or hire a tutor for things like algebra that the parents did not learn well themselves the first time around.

I did that.

math is not everyone's forte'. It should be, because it is an international language of sorts and very logical.
post #90 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
Sigh.. you cannot force people to retain information. It's not like a computer where you can push save and there it is forever. Memorization just does not stick with some people.
Absolutely, I just don't want the schools using it as an excuse to skip teaching math basics, including math facts, and leave out majority of kids who are able to benefit from it.
post #91 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Some do. I know it is boring. When I was in school we had to memorize things from the cathechism every week all through eight years of religious school...some were better at it than others, I know, but it does not mean it should not be a way, ONE WAY to learn.

I feel sorry that your DD got kicked out of the TAG program. Here we call it the GATE program. That is why parents throw up their arms and simply homeschool their children and/or hire a tutor for things like algebra that the parents did not learn well themselves the first time around.

I did that.

math is not everyone's forte'. It should be, because it is an international language of sorts and very logical.
She wasn't kicked out of TAG. She was kicked out of Pre-Algebra in the 6th grade. She took it in 7th, Algebra in 8th and is supposed to be taking Integrated 2 in 9th. Whatever that is.

As for GATE, we are from Cali. We moved to Oregon when DD was in 6th grade. I was always told that Cali had the worse schools in the nation. WRONG! The schools here are MUCH MUCH worse than the ones down there.

We were in the North Bay for what that is worth. I know the schools in the central valley still suck bad.

Oh as for TAG. there is no program.. it doesn't exist. They label them and that is the end of it. :
post #92 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
Absolutely, I just don't want the schools using it as an excuse to skip teaching math basics, including math facts, and leave out majority of kids who are able to benefit from it.
Yes but then they fail kids who can't memorize them but are perfectly capable of doing the math.
post #93 of 118
I am Sorry i misread your post. Those labels and programs are often worthless. Why would they bother to test the children and then label the children that way if nothing is going to be done?

BTW, California has THE LARGEST textbook market in the nation, so if California is buying a book, then the rest of the nation is going to buy the same book, whether it is good or not.

Ten years ago, my DS1 and DS2 were taught mathematics as "Integrated Math" in which they learned algebra, geometry, trig and calculus as a three year unit. Then when my two sons left school, the program ended and they went back to the traditional method.

After buying all of those books and re-training the math teachers and entire math departments in the new method, it was dropped. All that money and time were wasted, and my boys are confused about math.
post #94 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
Yes but then they fail kids who can't memorize them but are perfectly capable of doing the math.
They wouldn't fail a kid if they had trouble with long term memory (there are things in place for kids with learning disabilities). If one doesn't have problem with long term memory - it is not an unreasonable to ask a child to memorize ten math facts in one week. If instruction is right - the learned fatcs will be reinforced all through the third grade and will stick for life.

Kids need to learn (as part of schooling process) how to memorize things, even if it not as exciting as the rest of the stuff they do in class, it will make them more powerful mathematician, and develops their brain pathways.
post #95 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
They wouldn't fail a kid if they had trouble with long term memory (there are things in place for kids with learning disabilities). If one doesn't have problem with long term memory - it is not an unreasonable to ask a child to memorize ten math facts in one week. If instruction is right - the learned fatcs will be reinforced all through the third grade and will stick for life.

Kids need to learn (as part of schooling process) how to memorize things, even if it not as exciting as the rest of the stuff they do in class, it will make them more powerful mathematician, and develops their brain pathways.
People without learning disabilities can fail to memorize "math" facts or spelling words.

Hell I can remember things that happened in my day to day life all the way back to 13 months. But I will forget spelling words and multiplication tables right after the test.

DH is the opposite. He can't remember crap from his day to day life. But he can remember how to spell words, his multiplication tables and what not.

His memory works differently than mine. I don't think it is a learning disability to be different.
post #96 of 118
My oldest son learned multiplication tables 1 through 12, starting in 2nd grade and going through 6th grade (mostly in 5th and 6th). I learned all of them in 4th grade, so different approach, same result.

I do think they are important, as are some of the mnemonic tricks for remembering them.
post #97 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
People without learning disabilities can fail to memorize "math" facts or spelling words.
If you are unable to memorize ten facts in one week - I really do think you have learning disability.

I have worked in a school system for four years (as a paraprofessional, special education teacher, and a math teacher), and have never met anyone "unable" to remember math facts, unless they had serious documented problems with short or long term memory.

Spelling abides by different rules and has a great number of exceptions to remember (especially in English language heh). On the other hand, there is a finite number of math facts, and they don't change, nor do they have exceptions.
post #98 of 118
Sorry, one more thing to add to my last post...
Only other reason, aside from LD, for someone not to know their math facts - is poor math program.
post #99 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
If you are unable to memorize ten facts in one week - I really do think you have learning disability.
I am not unable to memorize ten facts in one week. I am unable to retain this information after the test. I am positive I am not alone.

How positive are you really that your students retain this information and just haven't found ways to work around it?
post #100 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
I am not unable to memorize ten facts in one week. I am unable to retain this information after the test. I am positive I am not alone.

How positive are you really that your students retain this information and just haven't found ways to work around it?
I believe the fact that you don't remember math facts after the test is a result of poor math instruction.

I'm confident that kids I have worked with got it because of rapid recall factor, and because we worked on it for a year. Every morning we started out with 3 minutes of math facts, and I have seen drastic improvement from September to May (you have to do so many problems in a minute, and the number of problems kids were able to do went up drastically, in a timed situation there is no time for addition). Since we have done it for a year straight (every single day, except for holidays, and special occasions I guess), I'm fairly certain that it's not just "for a test" thing. It was graded only on a few occasions, I did it because I felt it would speed up their work processing and would allow for fewer mistakes (it was a shame that not one single kid earned 100% on the pretest that consisted of four basic operations in the begining of the year).

It is a heated debate in the district, because elementary schools adopted Everyday Math (which doesn't believe memorizing math facts), and kids come to us making mistakes in basic multiplication problems, so 6th grade took it upon themselves to remedy the situation, and as a whole grade we decided to spend first three minutes of every math lesson on math facts.

P.S. I don't think this is how it should be taught though, I believe by 6th grade it should come naturally.
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