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toddlers, seizures, & Depakote  

post #1 of 45
Thread Starter 
I am trying to decide whether to listen to the neurologist and put my three-year-old daughter on Depakote, try the Ketogenic diet, or see another doctor – or do all three.

Sorry for wordiness (I cannot remember the exact ages or events since I was told, repeatedly, there is nothing to worry about; and I wanted to believe that.)…

I noticed my daughter having tremors in her hands when she was a baby. I mentioned them several times to the ped who said it was nothing to worry about since it is rarely a problem if they are on both sides of the body and she is doing fine otherwise.

Between eighteen months and 2.5 years my daughter had ‘episodes’ that seemed to have no cause. She rolled around, thrashed, banged into things with no concern. She was ‘checked out’. Afterwards she would lie limp in my arms and whimper. They could happen day or night and with no regularity. I thought they were seizures and spoke with the ped several times. He said they lasted too long to be seizures and were probably night terrors – no answer about the daytime episodes. In May I took her to a behavioral psychologist since she had so many behaviors indicating aspergers syndrome. The BP said these episodes can be common in people w/AS and since they’ve stopped she probably found another way to cope with the unseen triggers.

My daughter stares and spaces out for short periods. Once again I was told it was nothing. The stares and tremors are subtle – my husband and the ped never saw anything. I felt like I was crazy.

She spoke at a year but stopped all language from 12-18 months. She started ST and DT (her fine motor skills were great but she has tons of sensory issues – hypo) Her DT noticed the tremors were also in her legs.

Last month I demanded an EEG. (I know I waited too long.) The results showed significant & obvious abnormalities on the left side - seizures (epilepsy). I contacted my son’s neurologist at University of Chicago who said he couldn’t see my daughter until 2008. On Friday before July 4th I faxed the EEG results to him anyway and to Mayo Clinic – The Neurologist from UOC called and told us to be there July 5th. That day he wanted to start her on drugs. I explained my concern about the drugs and asked that we do more tests to have a better understanding of the seizures. He suggested an extended EEG and an MRI. We had the 24 hour EEG this week and as expected she was having many generalized seizures day and night. The MRI is scheduled for next week. I was given a script for Depakote and told to start her on it last night – I haven’t yet. Our appointment at Mayo is scheduled for Sept. 25th. I called this morning to try to have it bumped up.

I was given the following reasons for the need for Depakote:
When in school she will miss direction, etc. because of the seizures – I was fine w/this. I’ll home school and repeat myself all day if needed.

Her sleep will be disturbed and inadequate and cause learning and behavioral problems– Also does not seem like a good enough reason to risk the side effects of the drugs.

Her seizures will increase in frequency and severity. Possibly causing long term damage (there may be some already since she's probably been seizing her entire life) And even if they do not worsen, long-term frequent seizures as she is having can still cause brain damage. THIS is the reason I am considering the Depakote.

I know Depakote has been used for over twenty-five years but I am concerned, not only with the possibility of liver or pancreas failure but also changes in her personality. I realize the tests were not done on toddlers but it has been used frequently ‘off-label’ for kids over nine. I’m guessing all Neurologists will have a drug of choice. Has anyone used Depakote on a toddler?
I’ve mentioned the Ketogenic diet to two doctors who were strongly against it. First because it is difficult – and I said I didn’t care. But also because, according to them, it is ineffective in many cases and dangerous in it’s own right. Has anyone used the diet w/o trying drugs first?

I’d appreciate any information. Any experience with drugs, the diet or even suggestions for neurologists. Thank you!
post #2 of 45
Hi,

I work with a student who has had seizures since birth. He has been on almost every med out there and Depakote has worked well for him for years with the least side effects of all the meds. Last year, he began to have more seizures even with the Depakote and since his parents were reluctant to up his meds, they began the Ketogenic diet. It allowed him to reduce his Depakote level in HALF!!!! Right now he is having bad night seizures and has had to add some Keppra to his meds but until a month or two ago, the diet alone made the most enormous difference. In his behavior, auditory processing, motor skills, etc. all got so much better when the drug dose was down and the diet was controlling the seizures. I believe he can have 24 net carbs per day. They are a little flexible when he is doing well and very strict if he is having seizures. But he went months without a single seizure on the diet.

So I highly recommend it, to hell if it's hard! Lots of us have to do diets that are hard. It's not really different than a child with a lot of allergies (like me as a child). It is not dangerous if under the care of a dr. who is on board. And if it doesn't work, you'll know and can try other things. But if it does not work on its own, I would test how low a dose of meds you can use. What this boys parents did was to get his seizures under control with meds first and then add the diet, and then slowly reduce the meds until he was starting to have seizure activity again. Then they knew that he needed the dose just higher than that.
post #3 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsam
Her seizures will increase in frequency and severity. Possibly causing long term damage (there may be some already since she's probably been seizing her entire life) And even if they do not worsen, long-term frequent seizures as she is having can still cause brain damage. THIS is the reason I am considering the Depakote.
This would be enough for me to medicate. Actually, this is all it took for DS's dad and I to decide to medicate. Our team was pretty clear on this point, so we started DS on the pheno. You could start on the meds and then introduce the diet, and change drs. if you like. I think that it's pretty important to stop all seizure activity, as soon as you can.

post #4 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FancyD View Post
This would be enough for me to medicate. Actually, this is all it took for DS's dad and I to decide to medicate. Our team was pretty clear on this point, so we started DS on the pheno. You could start on the meds and then introduce the diet, and change drs. if you like. I think that it's pretty important to stop all seizure activity, as soon as you can.

Thank you. I wasn't sure if the doctor's stmts. about increasing frequency and intensity were accurate but it sounds like you were given the same info. I had the prescription filled this evening.

How old was your son when you medicated him? Has he been on the same drug and how long? My daughter just turned three. The prescription says do not give to children under three because they are at increased risk of liver failure.
post #5 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PikkuMyy View Post
Hi,
What this boys parents did was to get his seizures under control with meds first and then add the diet, and then slowly reduce the meds until he was starting to have seizure activity again. Then they knew that he needed the dose just higher than that.

This makes sense. For some crazy reason I am more frightened of the drugs than the seizures. (Maybe I am in denial.) I could always start the meds then find a doctor that w/b willing to include the diet. I should probably make some diet changes anyway since we are vegetarians and all the fruits and veggies may not be the best for her.
Thank you for your response.
post #6 of 45
I would ask your neuro why they rx'd Depakote, though. I've heard that it can be hard on the liver...

http://professionals.epilepsy.com/me..._children.html

DS will probably be switched to Frisium next week, as phenobarb doesn't do anything for abscence seizures. I'm in Canada, though, and the system here is quite different.
post #7 of 45
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE=FancyD;8732330]I would ask your neuro why they rx'd Depakote, though. I've heard that it can be hard on the liver...

The doctor said he likes Depakote because it has been used for many years and the side effects are known. (Although I've read it hasn't been used for long on such small children.) He said the risk of liver failure is 1/10,000 and that this failure is more common in children with compounding health issues. He did not mention failure of the pancreas although I've read it is also a possibility. That is one of the reasons I was trying to see another Neurologist to see if another drug is recommended
post #8 of 45
If you can get a second opinion, do it. It can't hurt. I know that I read a ton and ask 50,000 questions regarding my son's health. Any specialist (esp. a pediatric specialist!) worth their salt will happily answer any question you have.

post #9 of 45
Our doc told us the same story about seizures increasing in frequency and duration. DS has been on Lamictal (lamotrigine) since he was 3. When we have an issue getting a refill (idiot doctors) and miss a couple doses, he still has seizures so I know its working. We have seen very little side effects.
post #10 of 45
active toddler, so I may have to come back to this in stages.

What you said about being more afraid of the drugs than the seizures being a form of denial...YES. That is what it is, and you're a strong person for recognizing that. I think as AP, MDC moms, we'd rather do anything than put our children on something unknown and artificial...not to mention a drug with potential side effects. So yes, being so afraid of the drug when your daughter is experiencing that many seizures is unreasonable. Understandable (!), but unreasonable.

If you want to try the diet, I'd get the seizures under control first with meds, then wait a while (a couple of months) to make sure the seizures are under control. THEN I'd intruduce the diet. If you introduce it too soon, and seizure activity changes, you won't know if it's the med or the diet that is causing problems. That could mean experimenting with med increases or a med change, and that's not a good way to go.

Both of my sons with epilepsy have used Depakote. Now, before I tell you our experience, please know that our sons seem to be unusually prone to getting med side effects, and they've been on 6+ epilepsy drugs. With depakote, they experienced pretty good seizure control for a while (it's difficult to control our boys' seizures). They also lost a lot of their hair (a rare side effect...it got extremely thin and whispy), and their blood lost a lot of its ability to clot (another rare side effect, and one not even recognized by the makers of Depakote). Because of these things, we chose to move on to a new medication. Moving to a new seizure med is common, and drugs that are free of side effects for a most kids (like trileptal) will give some kids weird side effects (see the recent post about the mom with a child on trileptal). You don't really know how a child is going to do on a drug, which is why doctors are usually pretty quick to try a different drug if one is causing unpleasant side effects or not doing an effective job of controlling seizures.

As for side effects, espeically liver and organ involvement....these things are VERY rare, and really are most common in kids that have other big problems going on. If you're concerned about these side effects, and your dr. should be (even though they're rare), there are things you can do. You can titrate slowly onto a drug (less important with Depakote, but you still can), and you can go in for weekly or monthly blood work to test organ health until you and your doctor feel you know your daughter is processing the medication well. You'll want to be in for blood work every few months or so to check the levels of the meds in her system (to see if they're within a therapeutic dose or if they need to be raised/lowered), so why not check her organ systems at the same time and see if everything's okay there? At the beginning, though, you probably want to come in monthly (or whatever is suggested by your doctor, if he/she wants to make sure there isn't any liver/pancreas involvement).

Other side effects to look for, that are also unacceptable, are big changes in mood, language (or interaction), sleep, etc. You don't have to live with side effects. Don't be afraid to stand up and demand a change. And if Depakote doesn't sit well with you, ask about other drugs. Your daughter is just starting out with seizure medications, and thankfully she (and you) have A LOT of options when it comes to meds. If this one doesn't work for you, there are others. All of them have potential side effects, true, but the frequency of the side effects is so rare compared to the immense good that these drugs do.

If it helps at all, my sons are now on Felbatol and Lamictal, both of which have pretty extreme and scary side effect disclaimers. We use these medications because we tried all the safer ones, and our sons didn't respond to them for more than a few months (again, our family is just about the worst case scenario when it comes to seizures and side effects, , so don't let our experience scare you). For us, the side effects are a much smaller concern than the seizures. Still, we went up on these medications slowly (titration schedules were very slow and gradual in their increase) and we did a lot of bloodwork at the beginning to make sure everything was going well. Three years in, we don't worry at all about the side effects. These are the drugs that are working for our boys, seemingly without side effects, and we're just *so* thankful to have found something that works.

I'd try Depakote. If you notice any side effects that you don't like, or alarm you, or make living with your daughter difficult (behavior, sleep changes, etc.), then switch. And yes, by all means, eventually try the diet...just take it slowly, because with seizure control you need to be able to isolate which treatments, or which changes, are causing increases or decreases in seizures.

PM me if I can be of any help. I'm sorry you're dealing with this, and I'm sorry your daughter is having a hard time. I'm sure you're reeling right now, but it really will get MUCH easier in time.

ETA: Our boys were 1.5 when they started on Depakote. They were on it until just after their second birthday (twins). Before that they were on trileptal, topamax, and keppra for seizure control (plus some other more extreme drugs for infantile spasms, a type of seizure that you don't need to worry about at your daughter's age).
post #11 of 45
If you're uncomfortable starting the Depakote you should call the neurologist and ask why that's what she was prescribed. That might make you feel better to hear from them why they prescribed that one.

Either way I would start some kind of seizure medication. The seizures need to be stopped and they're obviously affecting her developmentally.

My ds has a generalized seizure disorder and we have seen HUGE improvements since starting Lamictal. He is only 11 months but he had a lot of "autistic like" behavior, as well as many developmental delays before starting the seizure meds. Now, the autistic like behaviors are mostly all gone and he's starting to catch up developmentally. And that's from only being on seizure meds for 3 weeks.

I also have an appt. at Mayo, on September 27th!
post #12 of 45
my3peanuts~ so glad to hear things are going so well for your son!!! And your siggy quote is so applicable to your situation with your doctors....you ought to have in engraved on coffee mugs and give it to them as "thank you" gifts!
post #13 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BensMom View Post
Our doc told us the same story about seizures increasing in frequency and duration. DS has been on Lamictal (lamotrigine) since he was 3. When we have an issue getting a refill (idiot doctors) and miss a couple doses, he still has seizures so I know its working. We have seen very little side effects.
Thank you. I'm looking into other meds and appreciate the info.
BTW..I saw Ben's alphabet video the other day. Very creative.
post #14 of 45
Thread Starter 
RedOakMomma,
Thank you for all the information. I had read postings regarding your sons' seizures prior to posting my question. It is frightening without all the additonal complications I can't imagine the health issues you are dealing with. You sound like an incredibly strong and educated parent.
Thanks,
post #15 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by my3peanuts View Post
My ds has a generalized seizure disorder and we have seen HUGE improvements since starting Lamictal. He is only 11 months but he had a lot of "autistic like" behavior, as well as many developmental delays before starting the seizure meds. Now, the autistic like behaviors are mostly all gone and he's starting to catch up developmentally. And that's from only being on seizure meds for 3 weeks.

I also have an appt. at Mayo, on September 27th!
The neurologist said Maggie's 'autistic like' behavior is probably linked to the seizures. (Our neurologist's son has autism and bi-polar issues so he seems to understand autism and epilepsy.)

Have you been to Mayo before?
post #16 of 45
My concern with depakote would also be the obesity risk, which can lead to other health problems besides the liver damage risk you already know about.

I worked with people with various seizure disorders and saw various changes with different medications in one particular patient. She literally went from a size 8 to a size 24 and back with depakote and then a switch to topamax.
I don't know what other meds are available since I no longer work in that field, but I think you should find out everything you can about the side effects of each medication you consider.
post #17 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsam View Post
The neurologist said Maggie's 'autistic like' behavior is probably linked to the seizures. (Our neurologist's son has autism and bi-polar issues so he seems to understand autism and epilepsy.)

Have you been to Mayo before?
No, I haven't been there before. Have you?
post #18 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by my3peanuts View Post
No, I haven't been there before. Have you?
No. We have a friend with epilepsy - started when he was in his thirties. He's been going to Mayo for fifteen years and is really impressed with the doctors and the process.

Mayo called today and said I would be hearing from them next week regarding tests that will be scheduled. (They were not aware we had the extended EEG this week and will be having an MRI next week.)

We're going to Minnesota - I think they have other campuses.
post #19 of 45
I think what RedOakMama said is important about getting the seizures under control with meds first and then backing off as you have the diet going. It is very important to get the seizures stopped ASAP.

As for the fruits and veggies, you could easily lower her carb intake without the ketogenic diet to start. Do some research to know which veggies are high in carbs (like carrots, potatoes, and other root veggies) and which are low (bell peppers and celery, broccoli, snow peas, sprouts) and which fruits are high (apples, grapes, etc.) and which are low (berries). Also keep an eye on her grain intake. Also look at upping the fat content as that helps the seizures as well. For example, my student wanted to eat some dried strawberries but he'd already had a lot of carbs. So his mom said he could have some as long as he had some protein or fat with it. And when his seizures were really bad, he was eating spoonfuls of coconut oil during the day and at night, sweetened with stevia.

The child I work with eats a lot of meat and cheese, the fruits and veggies that are low carb, low carb hummus, high fat yogurt, olives, and low carb pasta (made of soy) . It is not even close to being vegan (although he drinks unsweetened soy and almond milk). There really isn't any way to even be vegetarian, I think, on the Ketogenic diet. But even as a vegan, I'd put my child on it if it would help the quality of life, and just try to keep the meat to a minimum and well source it.
post #20 of 45
Thread Starter 
PikkuMyy, Good advice about the diet. I was thinking today of ways I can lower carbs and increase fats. (I had gestational diabetes and was pulling out all my old carb charts for fruits and veggies.) As RedOakMomma suggested, I agree it w/b best not to make extreme diet changes right away so we can tell how the Depakote is working. We are LO vegetarians not vegan. Even so, I will add meat to her diet if it will help.

I should add...I started her on the Depakote today. I agree the most important thing is to stop the seizures. I was trying to find the 'best' drug but realize that is not realistic. From your stories I see it is more of a ‘trial and error’ or ‘best fit’ process. We are keeping our Sept.25th appt. with the second neuro to get their opinions and have a follow-up appt with the current neuro Oct. 2nd.

Thanks again for all the input. It is so hard to medicate a child. I think just writing all this out and hearing your stories forced me out of my 'denial' and into reality. It also made me realize how foolish I was to listen to my pediatrician who kept saying all was fine; once again wanting to believe she was ok even if it meant ignoring my intuition. I'm also glad to hear how well all your children are doing on their medications. my3peanuts, I am encouraged about your son's change in his 'autistic behaviors' and hope similar changes occur in Maggie.

Another question…Our neuro said at this age 85% of his medicated patients stop having seizures within two years and 70% of those stop taking drugs. I know statistics don’t mean much but was wondering if any of you were given similar hope for a future without medication.

Thanks again!
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