Give me info on debunking 'manipulation'

[amitymama]

I have an acquaintance who showed me this horrible article about how much kids manipulate us, how temper tantrums have to be 'nipped in the bud' so they don't turn into brats, blah blah blah blah. I just responded by saying that 'manipulation' is a subjective term and that I don't believe that children (at least young children) are capable of manipulating, they are just testing boundaries, looking for love and attention, etc.. and she wants to read more about why I feel this way.

Does anyone have any links or articles they can suggest about this issue?

[DevaMajka]

Well, I like that it says this

He may also have observed your own manipulative behavior, like breaking promises to him or acting in an insincere or devious way yourself.

And it also talks about reasons for a child being manipulative, such as trying to avoid embarrassment, etc. Though they do mention "being selfish" as a reason. hmmm. But if you take away all the negative talk about kids, the steps themselves don't seem too horribly bad.

What I'm not getting, is that I don't see anything about younger kids. I see one mention of a 3yo throwing a tantrum to get a toy in a store.
Is this something the aquaintance has mentioned before?

Very young children don't manipulate. They learn that certain things they do (cry, whine, etc) work to communicate their needs/desires. And they use them.

It's much too early to think any more. lol. Hopefully you get some good answers!

[hubris]

Here's the the thing: humans are manipulative. We do things in order to communicate with other humans, with the express purpose of getting what we want.

But so what?

The problem is when people see all manipulation as pathological, as somehow wrong/bad/disordered. "Manipulation" in a passive-aggressive sense isn't healthy, and because the word is so often used that way, in a psycho-babble way, people now have a knee-jerk reaction to the word.

You might just say to somebody who passes along such *helpful* parenting advice, "I think the author fails to understand that there are different kinds of manipulation. The ways in which children get what they need from their parents is not wrong, it's age-appropriate communication. Parents can help children to gradually grow into other ways of communicating by first making sure that their needs are met, and then helping to guide the children toward other ways of communicating their needs."

The other big misconception is the idea that only the basic needs (food, clothing, shelter) are needs. Our society is very dismissive of comfort-related needs. I might point out to the anti-"manipulation" folks that it is healthy and normal for a child to need/want her parent's attention, and that a parent who dismisses that is ignorant of child development, and negligent.

[DevaMajka]

This is cool
http://naturalmomstalkradio.com/blog...ls-of-thought/
it has a link to a cartoon by Hathor

I like what Hubris said "But so what?" lol

[starry_mama]

http://www.naturalchild.org/advice/q09.html Not an article, more of a question/answer, but I love it.

[amitymama]

Originally Posted by hubris

Here's the the thing: humans are manipulative. We do things in order to communicate with other humans, with the express purpose of getting what we want.

But so what?

The problem is when people see all manipulation as pathological, as somehow wrong/bad/disordered. "Manipulation" in a passive-aggressive sense isn't healthy, and because the word is so often used that way, in a psycho-babble way, people now have a knee-jerk reaction to the word.

You might just say to somebody who passes along such *helpful* parenting advice, "I think the author fails to understand that there are different kinds of manipulation. The ways in which children get what they need from their parents is not wrong, it's age-appropriate communication. Parents can help children to gradually grow into other ways of communicating by first making sure that their needs are met, and then helping to guide the children toward other ways of communicating their needs."

The other big misconception is the idea that only the basic needs (food, clothing, shelter) are needs. Our society is very dismissive of comfort-related needs. I might point out to the anti-"manipulation" folks that it is healthy and normal for a child to need/want her parent's attention, and that a parent who dismisses that is ignorant of child development, and negligent.

Thank you, that is EXACTLY the kind of answer I was looking for.

[hubris]

No problem.

Another thing I thought of is that some people seem to expect that parents should be able to teach their children "mature" skills with short, quick little lessons. Kid "misbehaves," parent acts swiftly, kid immediately learns the "right" way to act and never ever acts up again. Talk about unrealistic expectations. Two-year-olds are two-year-olds. It will take them 28 years to be 30 years old. We cannot expect 30-year-old behaviors from them just because we lectured them or gave them time out or something.

We can be nurturing and enjoy their (SLOW) transition to adulthood, or we can nag them mercilessly to grow up and be constantly frustrated that they're still children, doing child-like things.

And FWIW, many/most 30-year-olds I know don't consistently act as mature as they seem to expect toddlers and preschoolers to act. I know they must be doing it just to manipulate people and get their way, they must be doing it just to get attention, because they *know* it's wrong.

[mightymoo]

My daughter definitely manipulates. However, I don't think she uses her emotions to do it. When she's upset, she's genuinely upset. Generally, she's manipulative when she doesn't get upset - rather if she doesn't get her way, she usually gets upset, unless she can see a way to manipulate the situation to her favor.

For example - the other day at the pool, I brought these rubber rocket things called toypedos. DD wanted one of the ones DS had (they are all different colors). I told her she could ask him to trade, but he said no. She was very unhappy she couldn't get the one she wanted from him. I watched her little gears grind as she then immediately wanted to go in the big pool (no toys are allowed in the big pool). DS promptly dropped his toys, we went in the big pool and when we came back, DD made sure to immediately claim the colors she wanted for herself. I would call this manipulative. However, as long as she's doing it within "the rules" of acceptable behavior, I didn't have a problem with it - DS was not upset, she did not push him, hurt him or grab a toy from him, etc.