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Saved $16 but feeling a little guilty - Page 19

post #361 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrinat View Post
Well, that's not exactly what I've said. You've combined several post into one interpretation, but that's fine, we all do that from time to time. I do drive an SUV.




Now see, I don't know what you mean because what I thought MDC was about something completely different. I thought it was about being an individual, tolerance, about acceptance, about freedom to make choices that maybe ARE against the grain. A place of support, where differences are celebrated and even if we don't make the same choices on every issue, we can both still respect that we are the stewards of our children's lives and maybe, just maybe we're making the choices we feel are best. I thought it was a place that you didn't have to sign in at the door and conform to a set of rules. That you were leaving the criticism of the mainstreaming world behind and entering a domain where you could be you.

You don't know how I chose to give to the world at large, you don't know whether or not I go every day and sit and hold crack addicted babies, volunteer at a homeless shelter, work as a GAL for women and children, you just know that I chose to shop at Walmart and that I must not be as politically and socially astute as you.

But that's ok, I don't think you're bad either.
Have you read Mothering? There's a bit more to it than that. And the UA clearly has some rules regarding what can be discussed. It's not really a place where we can talk about anything at all or promote anything at all. There are topics here that really are off-limits, as you no doubt know. That's because it's a Natural Family Living Forum. Obviously some things are in the grey area, like WalMart and SUVs. Still they are somewhat controversial here due to their tendency to leave large footprints. Not to mention that WalMart isn't exactly, um, a temple of Natural Family Living. It may be many things, good or bad to you, but it's definitely not really a place you'd ever see referenced positively in Mothering Magazine.

I make no assumptions about anyone's activities outside of MDC. I am only debating the topic at hand, not whether or not you volunteer at shelters, etc. Glad to hear it if in fact you do.

I have explained why I boycott Walmart etc. as it fits in with my beliefs and frame of reference. It never occurred to me that you or anyone else *wouldn't* participate in volunteering or other efforts to better your community. That's not the topic here.
post #362 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbowbird View Post
Yes, it's a free country. You're free to drive an SUV, shop at WalMart, and do a million other things that might raise eyebrows here. The point is that the culture of MDC is somewhat alternative and so yeah, you're going to get some backlash if you sound as if you are promoting or proud of that type of thing. KWIM?
I never thought I would see people spouting the benifit of vaxes and choosing to vax or circ on here either.... but it happens. being AP and NFL is NOT a checklist, there are certain things the site tottaly bans, eg spanking and pro formula feeding etc. But it does not anywhere say you must not drive an SUV or like them, or shop at walmart etc. That is something YOU expect, but it is not something we MUST follow. This is a way of life, not a cult.
post #363 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbowbird View Post
I am not the only one here who feels this way, BigEyes. Why do you single me out?

Frankly, I think my discourse has been a lot more respectful and professional than much of the insults and snide comments that have been thrown around here. Not necessarily by you personally, but there have def. been some personal comments made. Also, I never said, nor do I feel that "all of you" (can you really speak for the whole group?) are caring or uninformed. That's a gross generalization.

There wouldn't be much point in a debate if I agreed with your viewpoint, and only agreed that we disagreed. It's just not how I feel. And while I can *respect* SOME of the viewpoints posted here, I certainly can't respect all of them, some of which have been so blatantly rude, personalized, and snarky, for want of a better word. But nowhere have I insulted anyone, called them a name, or personalized a comment to where someone would actually be insulted. I wonder why you aren't concerned about some of the really rude comments that have been made? Is that because they are coming from people who happen to agree with you?

I am not sure why you keep coming back at me and poking me with a stick, BigEyes. We've had a few go-rounds and seem to have come to the conclusion that we agree on many things. The posts you are referring to had nothing to do with anything you said, they were in response to some specific comments by another poster.
I'm not singling you out. This is a general question. Why is the opposing viewpoint not being given the same respect in general? Snide comments and pitying tones (whether imagined or not) aside, the overall tone has been that we are refusing to admit that we are wrong.

All I am saying is, why can't we just agree to disagree? I am not poking you, I am having a discussion with you and several others. However, no matter how many times we go around this particular issue, I am not buying into the whole Walmart destroys the economy thing. I have given logical reasons why I think this way. I've listened to your arguments. Both sides believe in what they are saying.

So again, why can't we just agree to disagree, without anyone making comments about who is better at natural family living or who has a right to be here? Not every comment is yours, btw, I'm just speaking about the comments from the anti-WM crowd in general. The only issue I have with you is that you keep trying to make this personal between you and me.
The only thing I know about you is that you dislike Walmart and think people who shop there don't care about poor people. That alone tells me you know nothing about me.

Let's not make this about us. There is no us.
post #364 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
I'm not singling you out.

All I am saying is, why can't we just agree to disagree?

[/I] The only thing I know about you is that you dislike Walmart and think people who shop there don't care about poor people. That alone tells me you know nothing about me.

Let's not make this about us. There is no us.
Thanks, I thought you were singling me out because you quoted me and responded to my post, so I thought you were talking to me.

If we agree to disagree, then there is really no discussion left. Which may be fine since it is getting a little long and hard to track. I do wonder though, what this thread would have been like if it had been posted on Activism for example!

I don't think that people who shop at WalMart don't care about poor people. I've said that many times. I HAVE said that I DON'T shop there because I care about poor people, but that is very different from saying that you shop there because you don't.

There's no us? Really? But I thought we had something special...

Just kidding. I really thought you were pointing your comments at me though, since you said "You" many times while quoting me. That's all.
post #365 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
But it does not anywhere say you must not drive an SUV or like them, or shop at walmart etc. That is something YOU expect, but it is not something we MUST follow. This is a way of life, not a cult.
Right, that's why I said these topics are a grey area. Very controversial. Certainly not banned, but not really too popular, either, KWIM?

I sure hope it's not a cult! Believe me, I'm not saying people who shop at WalMart are BAD. I am just saying why I think Walmart is bad, and why I prefer not to shop there. Insults taken are inferred.

For example: My neighbors shop there often. I see them unloading their blue smiley bags while we're outside playing. They are LOVELY people. I adore them. He is a beloved doctor in our community. They are wonderful, wonderful people. The kind of people you hope live next door to you, the kind of people you wish everyone could have for neighbors. Thoughtful, kind, ready to help you if you need it.

But I am never going to feel happy that they shop at WalMart! I'll never feel that it's a good choice, particularly since they are fairly well-off and could obviously shop elsewhere. BUT....I'll never think they're bad people, either. Nor will I enter into a debate about their shopping habits, unless they happen to ask my opinion or decide to jump on MDC! I'm debating this here because it's the appropriate place, and I'm not passing judgement on other areas of your life. I have no knowledge of that nor should you feel you need to share it.

I hope this clarifies things.
post #366 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelbean91 View Post
Yes, many things are *that* much lower (even $1/item adds up when you are buying weeks worth of food. Also, walmart price matches the ads of other stores, so you can get all the stuff in one stop.

I do what I can, but I will shop at walmart when needed.
Same here. I bought all of Kailey's school supplies and 2 uniform bottoms for the first part of the year for $22 dollars. That included:

1 jumper $10
1 skort $8
pencils .20
colored pencils .88
24 pack of crayons .20
1 folder .92
markers 1.19
2 packs of glue sticks .20 each

Even Maxway is more expensive and Dollar Tree uniforms are really poor quality.

Last year it was her Walmart uniforms that lasted until the end. Her skirt from Belk's nearly fell apart at the seams.
post #367 of 411
I may shop at Walmart, but I do use cloth for TP and cleaning/drying.

I use as little gas as possible.

I conserve electricity as much as possible (turning off lights when leaving a room, using natural light for as long as possible, washing clothing during off-peak hours, not flushing for every commode use).

I recycle.

And do many other earth preserving activities, but I do shop at Wal-mart.

I do what I feel I can, and ya know...I don't feel guilty about shopping at Walmart. And I care about poor people. I am poor people.
post #368 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
I never thought I would see people spouting the benifit of vaxes and choosing to vax or circ on here either.... but it happens. being AP and NFL is NOT a checklist, there are certain things the site tottaly bans, eg spanking and pro formula feeding etc. But it does not anywhere say you must not drive an SUV or like them, or shop at walmart etc. That is something YOU expect, but it is not something we MUST follow. This is a way of life, not a cult.
And when did Attachment Parenting have anything to do with shopping at Walmart? I don't see the connection. Nor do I see the connection to not driving SUV's and AP (though I wouldn't drive an SUV for other reasons).

NFL, ya I see the connection to not using these things.
post #369 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbowbird View Post
Thanks, I thought you were singling me out because you quoted me and responded to my post, so I thought you were talking to me.

If we agree to disagree, then there is really no discussion left. Which may be fine since it is getting a little long and hard to track. I do wonder though, what this thread would have been like if it had been posted on Activism for example!

I don't think that people who shop at WalMart don't care about poor people. I've said that many times. I HAVE said that I DON'T shop there because I care about poor people, but that is very different from saying that you shop there because you don't.

There's no us? Really? But I thought we had something special...

Just kidding. I really thought you were pointing your comments at me though, since you said "You" many times while quoting me. That's all.
Sorry, I can kinda see how you would get that. When you said 'It never occurred to me that you or anyone else *wouldn't* participate in volunteering or other efforts to better your community.' that was awfully close to saying 'you aren't trying to better your community,' wasn't it?

It's ok to be proud of yourself for doing what you think is right. Really, it is. But when you say it like that, it sounds like you are looking down your nose at anyone who doesn't do exactly as you do. And that 'you' is you in this case. If you didn't mean that to be insulting, ok, but it did sound a bit holier than thou. And I do mean that in the nicest possible way. I know if it was me you'd let me know.
post #370 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbowbird View Post
Have you read Mothering? There's a bit more to it than that. And the UA clearly has some rules regarding what can be discussed. It's not really a place where we can talk about anything at all or promote anything at all. There are topics here that really are off-limits, as you no doubt know. That's because it's a Natural Family Living Forum. Obviously some things are in the grey area, like WalMart and SUVs. Still they are somewhat controversial here due to their tendency to leave large footprints. Not to mention that WalMart isn't exactly, um, a temple of Natural Family Living. It may be many things, good or bad to you, but it's definitely not really a place you'd ever see referenced positively in Mothering Magazine.

I make no assumptions about anyone's activities outside of MDC. I am only debating the topic at hand, not whether or not you volunteer at shelters, etc. Glad to hear it if in fact you do.

I have explained why I boycott Walmart etc. as it fits in with my beliefs and frame of reference. It never occurred to me that you or anyone else *wouldn't* participate in volunteering or other efforts to better your community. That's not the topic here.
Surprisingly enough Walmart is the place I found Gluten flour, Annie's and other organic items for a decent price (much less than the health food store we have 40 minutes away). I don't use their plastic bags.

I don't pretend to believe they are working for a healthy earth, but I am happily surprised to see items I need at Walmart, so I don't use more gas. I can drive 6 minutes, instead of 40, and save money and gas.

I do what I can for my family and then extend that to my community when I can, and ALWAYS when I can.

I also boycott Nestle, because I can do this. Well, we are vegan, but were boycotting Nestle and their sister products before this.

Walmart, I don't feel so strongly about. I don't like their employee practices, but the people they employ in other countries are making far more money than they would with a local job. I'll have to find the article that states how much, but it was a large chunk more.
post #371 of 411
Quote:
Walmart, I don't feel so strongly about. I don't like their employee practices, but the people they employ in other countries are making far more money than they would with a local job. I'll have to find the article that states how much, but it was a large chunk more.
I remember reading this as well. I am not crazy about Wal Mart, but my family budget is such that I find it necessary to shop there. I buy locally and from small business when I can, and buy from corporations when I have to. We all do the best we can to get by and take care of our families to the best of our abilities.
post #372 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
Sorry, I can kinda see how you would get that. When you said 'It never occurred to me that you or anyone else *wouldn't* participate in volunteering or other efforts to better your community.' that was awfully close to saying 'you aren't trying to better your community,' wasn't it?
No, I literally mean that I would have no reason to think you aren't volunteering, doing good works, or whatever you choose. Did you mean I just worded it in a confusing way?
post #373 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbowbird View Post
No, I literally mean that I would have no reason to think you aren't volunteering, doing good works, or whatever you choose. Did you mean I just worded it in a confusing way?
Yes. I think several of us took it as 'I don't understand why you don't try to better your community.'
post #374 of 411
WOW... Quite the thread. I read the whole thing and want to post as I finish digesting it.

I do think that guilt is a call action - to revisit choice, or find a way to accept it as the best choice for now within your current reality.

There really is a continuum of AP/NFL and it can be hard to know when to support myself/yourself and others in pushing harder towards the more extreme end of the continuum and when to embrace compromises towards the mainstream that can be/feel necessary or preferable given situational realities. It seems like both sides of this push and pull have been expressed on this thread, and like the OP's original issue was resolved pretty satisfactorily with the "loss leader" explanation.

Personally, I do most things in moderation. I avoid Walmart most of the time, but I cave and go our local WM to binge on craft supplies (I also get some at out local bead shop, and some via freecycle) and no trip to my inlaws in complete without a trip to their local Walmart (regional & economic reasons). I acknowledge that even though finances feel tight for me now, it is a matter of choice for me and that is a privilege.

I have a new phrase lately... "when my budget catches up with my values" that may ring true with some folks on this thread. I know I indulge in some "wants" that feel like "needs", and that if I gave them up I could weild more change with my buying power etc., and am keeping that in mind as I continue to make the big picture choices that will affect these decisions in the future.

Thanks all for the food for thought.
post #375 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leta View Post
I was lusting after the Britaxes in Target the other day, and man are they HUGE. Our other car is a Toyota Corrola. We could only fit one Britax in the back of that, and probably no one else would fit back there once it was installed.
Not true. As a CPS Tech and a Toyota driver, I can state that 2 BIG Britax seats (the Marathon/Boulevard/Wizard/Decathon size shell) will fit in the back of a Toyota Corolla. And a skinny person that does not mind squishing can make a short ride back there. I have done it (well, my skinny husband has ). We owned a Corolla from the time my son was born 4 years ago until May 07. 2 carseats there was not an issue at all, I had a couple of Wizards back there all the time for my son and his friend. We have a Camry now and I have 2 carseats and a booster straight across the back for my son + his cousins. Also, 2 adults can sit next to a Britax seat in the back of a Corolla and still fasten their seat belts. We did that A LOT in the Corolla.

The VAST majority of families I see in SUVs (and remember, as a tech, I do seat checks so I see a lot of family cars) have 1-2 kids in seats, not 4+. Also, when I ended up with a HUGE Ford SUV on vacation (nothing else available that would carry 6-7) I discovered a fatal flaw with getting more than 3 seats in those things- the third row is accessed by flipping a vehicle seat forward. Climbing back there to do 2 seats is HARD. The seat that flips forwards is a no go for a car seat unless you want to install and uninstall the seat EVERY time you stop the car. : And most mid sized SUVs guzzle the gas but seat only 5. Only a couple of models have accessible third row seats. A minivan can easily do 4-5 seats and makes more sense for transporting kids anyways. Choosing to drive an SUV for having a few kids is a choice, not the only option like so many parents make it out to be. It is called a family sedan. It is called a minivan.
post #376 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by kijip View Post
Not true. As a CPS Tech and a Toyota driver, I can state that 2 BIG Britax seats (the Marathon/Boulevard/Wizard/Decathon size shell) will fit in the back of a Toyota Corolla. And a skinny person that does not mind squishing can make a short ride back there. I have done it (well, my skinny husband has ). We owned a Corolla from the time my son was born 4 years ago until May 07. 2 carseats there was not an issue at all, I had a couple of Wizards back there all the time for my son and his friend. We have a Camry now and I have 2 carseats and a booster straight across the back for my son + his cousins. Also, 2 adults can sit next to a Britax seat in the back of a Corolla and still fasten their seat belts. We did that A LOT in the Corolla.

The VAST majority of families I see in SUVs (and remember, as a tech, I do seat checks so I see a lot of family cars) have 1-2 kids in seats, not 4+. Also, when I ended up with a HUGE Ford SUV on vacation (nothing else available that would carry 6-7) I discovered a fatal flaw with getting more than 3 seats in those things- the third row is accessed by flipping a vehicle seat forward. Climbing back there to do 2 seats is HARD. The seat that flips forwards is a no go for a car seat unless you want to install and uninstall the seat EVERY time you stop the car. : And most mid sized SUVs guzzle the gas but seat only 5. Only a couple of models have accessible third row seats. A minivan can easily do 4-5 seats and makes more sense for transporting kids anyways. Choosing to drive an SUV for having a few kids is a choice, not the only option like so many parents make it out to be. It is called a family sedan. It is called a minivan.

It's funny because I really wanted a minivan when we were car shopping, I was moving from a subcompact and thought I'd never be able to drive anything large. I was trying to decide between the Odyssey and the Kia Sedona, the final test was if it could fit my stroller. I had a triple stroller, the tandem type. It was wide and long and minivans just didn't work, so I got something that would hold the 4 carseats that I needed that time (we've since been able to eliminate one) and the stroller. Sometimes you have to get what you have to get. My dh wanted us to get some 9 passenger van, so I could have been driving that :

It really depends on what make you drive as to how accessible the back seat is (3 row) in our old SUV it had the flip up type seat which is sort of a pain, but you adapt...the new one, very easy to get into the back.
post #377 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
I am a huge believer in letting my money speak.

For example, I couldn't boycott Disney if I tried. They own everything.

SO true. I've tried boycotting so many things before, and finding out exactly how much they own, etc. made my eyes nearly pop outta my head. Right now I just concentrate on trying to buy local. Bah. And avoid Nestle at all costs.
post #378 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbowbird View Post
Have you read Mothering? There's a bit more to it than that. And the UA clearly has some rules regarding what can be discussed. It's not really a place where we can talk about anything at all or promote anything at all. There are topics here that really are off-limits, as you no doubt know. That's because it's a Natural Family Living Forum. Obviously some things are in the grey area, like WalMart and SUVs. Still they are somewhat controversial here due to their tendency to leave large footprints. Not to mention that WalMart isn't exactly, um, a temple of Natural Family Living. It may be many things, good or bad to you, but it's definitely not really a place you'd ever see referenced positively in Mothering Magazine.
:
post #379 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrinat View Post
It's funny because I really wanted a minivan when we were car shopping, I was moving from a subcompact and thought I'd never be able to drive anything large. I was trying to decide between the Odyssey and the Kia Sedona, the final test was if it could fit my stroller. I had a triple stroller, the tandem type. It was wide and long and minivans just didn't work, so I got something that would hold the 4 carseats that I needed that time (we've since been able to eliminate one) and the stroller. Sometimes you have to get what you have to get. My dh wanted us to get some 9 passenger van, so I could have been driving that :

It really depends on what make you drive as to how accessible the back seat is (3 row) in our old SUV it had the flip up type seat which is sort of a pain, but you adapt...the new one, very easy to get into the back.
My post specifically was addressing those with 1-2 kids and also dispelling the notion that only 1 car seat fits in a compact car. Very, very few families have more than 2 car seats it seems yet many have an SUV because it is "needed" because they have kids.

I have 5 kids to cart around from time to time now and there is nothing that would work for us but a minivan in our situation. (3 across the back, a booster in 1 captains chair and a 12 year old in another).

I am not going to go so far as to say that an SUV is not the right choice for some situations. Lord knows, I have never had to fit a triple stroller in anywhere. But clearly, there are way more SUVs with unused third row seats on the road than are strictly needed. And tons of 5 seater fashion statement SUVs that never leave the city or burbs
post #380 of 411
I would choose an SUV over a minivan anyday, simply because we live in chicago, and I need something thats safer in the snow, and can be easily used by me, my kids and my FIL.
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