Saved $16 but feeling a little guilty - Page 4

[kittywitty]

Originally Posted by Mackenzie

I just finished managing a Fair Trade store. I am on an exceptionally small budget. Probably smaller than most here.

I could go on and on about why Wal-Mart is an abomination, and damning those who shop there but it comes down to this:

My WANT of cheap CRAP does not outweigh the life needs of those who produce those goods. The biggest EXCUSE I see for people who shop at Wal-Mart is the glorious category of "household goods". Screw that, things like toilet paper, laundry soap and scrub brushes are not a life need. They just aren't. Those things can be improvised in one fashion or another and I would rather do that than compromise my morals and shop with the devil.

It's not cheap crap when you depend on it for your food. And yes, even to avoid the laundry soap, you still need to buy bulk baking soda, borax, whatever. If you're tight on money, and can't afford to drive all over God's green earth to find it, where else are you gonna get it?

I avoid Walmart like the plague, but sometimes we need to go there. When money's tight, we need groceries. I can spend an enormous amount of money in gas to drive to the farmer's market and the literal 30-40 min drive from my house *in the city* to the nearest non-Walmart for some necessities. Really, it is up to me what I consider necessities, no one else. We saved up money to go to the Farmer's Market today ALL the way across town, got there and there was basically nothing. Some cucumbers and house plants, but that won't feed us. So I spent about $15 on gas to come home empty handed.

I have been trying EVERYTHING to avoid Walmart and other slavery-run companies to get my kids school uniforms that are *required*, but noone has been able to help me there yet, it is just a matter of the much more expensive and slightly less bad Land's End supergiant.

I am lucky to be able to make that choice right now. We will pay for it in our food bill, but I try to do what I can. The fact is that just about anywhere you shop nowadays and anything you buy is shopping with the devil unless you are lucky or priviliged enough to have a garden, farm, or an extremely active mom & pop business center in your center with homemade items.

Originally Posted by Nature

The subject of choice and going without is a bit amusing to me really. I've seen in several places on the forums conversations surrounding the amount of money people here spend on food a month. The figures are astounding to me. Absolutely astounding. I spend less than $150 a month on food for a family of five. The majority of people polled spent two to three times that in one week. Often for families smaller than mine.

So tell me... why is it that I have to go without and my purchases are being labeled a 'want' and not a 'need.' Yet peoples definitions of need in regards to food vary so much. If I can feed my family of five for $150 a month, why can't everyone else?

Do you see how that unfairly puts my priorities and morals on a higher ground than yours? Often, thats how it sounds when others talk about "choice" and shopping.

All people have different circumstances. Blanket statements that include everyone just are not realistic.

You live in a different area. Seriously, that makes a huge difference. When I lived in rural IL, I spent 1/3 the amount of $ on food as we do now. NC is worse! If we spent $150 on food for a month with the 5 (soon to be 6) of us, we would starve. My dh is diabetic, I am pregnant, and we have 3 hungry, growing kids. I can't imagine spending that little even just eating generic ramen noodles every day!

Just because someone in one area can spend $150 on food for a family of 5, doesn't mean everyone can.

[nantahala]

Originally Posted by Nature

The subject of choice and going without is a bit amusing to me really. I've seen in several places on the forums conversations surrounding the amount of money people here spend on food a month. The figures are astounding to me. Absolutely astounding. I spend less than $150 a month on food for a family of five. The majority of people polled spent two to three times that in one week. Often for families smaller than mine.

So tell me... why is it that I have to go without and my purchases are being labeled a 'want' and not a 'need.' Yet peoples definitions of need in regards to food vary so much. If I can feed my family of five for $150 a month, why can't everyone else?

Do you see how that unfairly puts my priorities and morals on a higher ground than yours? Often, thats how it sounds when others talk about "choice" and shopping.

All people have different circumstances. Blanket statements that include everyone just are not realistic.

Hammer meet nail. Well said.

[wonderwahine]

Originally Posted by dnw826

Just because someone in one area can spend $150 on food for a family of 5, doesn't mean everyone can.

I think thats the point she was trying to convey.... that just because she can spend $150 on her grocheries, not everyone can because of different circumstances and areas, so it shouldnt be applied to the "choice" to shop at walmart either.

[Nature]

Originally Posted by dnw826

I can't imagine spending that little even just eating generic ramen noodles every day!

Just because someone in one area can spend $150 on food for a family of 5, doesn't mean everyone can.

And some would say, "If it kept me out of the evil that is Walmart, then eating Ramen noodles every day is worth that sacrifice!" But that person is not me.

Of course not everyone can only spend $150 on food a month for a family of 5. Which was my point. Everyones circumstances are different in some way.

Originally Posted by wonderwahine

I think thats the point she was trying to convey.... that just because she can spend $150 on her grocheries, not everyone can because of different circumstances and areas, so it shouldnt be applied to the "choice" to shop at walmart either.

Yes, thank you.

Originally Posted by dnw826

Really, it is up to me what I consider necessities, no one else.

ITA with you

[kittywitty]

Originally Posted by Nature

And some would say, "If it kept me out of the evil that is Walmart, then eating Ramen noodles every day is worth that sacrifice!" But that person is not me.

Of course not everyone can only spend $150 on food a month for a family of 5. Which was my point. Everyones circumstances are different in some way.



Yes, thank you.

I'm sorry! I read it wrong! I get confused reading back 4 pages worth of threads! :

[Nature]

Originally Posted by dnw826

I'm sorry! I read it wrong! I get confused reading back 4 pages worth of threads! :

No worries! I've argued with the people I've agreed with in threads before, many times! Especially when I'm tired and trying to catch up before the thread gets locked.

[I STIK M]

ds and i decided to stop shopping at walmart many years ago. it has been tough at times when money is tight, non existant, or supplies are not available in other stores. when hurricaines come, u buy bottled water. u buy it from who has some. if u bottled water for yourself, then u buy it for family, niehbors, friends. same with tarps, matches, ect. huricaine charlie landed on top of my parents, then flew up and blew away my inlaws town. no power, clean water, gas to get out. we spent the next week loading up the truck with water, ice, roofing tarps, nails, ect and going to one town, coming home to get gas, re load and off to the other. that week we bought at walmart. we still spent thosands we didnt really have.
since then,no. we dont shop there. plus, we eat more rice and the cheapest way by far to buy it is from an asain grocery, in bulk, a 50 pound sack for $15 could feed a family all year. some broth made from bits and bones and cheap vegie, and ther u go, less than .50 day. so what is is that u need at walmart that is so cheap? i know ,yes, water. someone said soap- we found it became expensive with diapering- so we boiled, tap water in a huge pot over an open flame in the backyard- and what a smell! a nieghbor came over thinking it was chili......they havent been back.
cheap crayons. well, when i was first brought to the us- i would try to eat them, i would try to eat anything, i didnt know toys, i was hungry. the workers in china, their children would eat the crayons too. it is another level.
so i remember that level of poverty. and yet as an american, i will choose my family comfort over another nameless person poverty. if my son wants crayons, and i have only $1 at the time, i might choose to goto walmart, but probably not. but i wont hesitate if my family is in crisis.
goto go, ds is up , more later....

[Mackenzie]

My kids would rather go without $1 crayons than contribute to child slave labor. Yes, my 7 and 9 year olds know about this. They are very socio-aware and make very mature choices so as to have a little negative affect on the people around the world as possible. I am very lucky that I have children who do not value their wants more than the lives of others and don't often have to make the choice to deny them something or contribute to the drug of consumerism.

[boysrus]

If you wait a week or two, Target and Staples will have their huge back to school sales, and the prices are totally competitive

Originally Posted by AbigailsMomSarah

I don't typically shop at Walmart, infact today was the first time I have been in one in many years.

We have recently cut a good part of our income out and are working hard to be more conscience of the ammount of money we spend.

Walmart has all their school supplies on sale right now, and while my kids are only preschoolers and don't need actual school supplies, we still use lots of art supplies at home.

Crayola washable markers were on sale for 78 cents a pack. Elmers glue was on sale for 17 cents. Craoyola colored pencils were also 78 cents. Crayola crayons, the 24 pack, were only 20 cents each.

We use a lot of these things during the year...and typically pay at least $3.00 for each pack or markers or colored pencils, and at least 75 cents or a dollar for each thing of glue. Crayons are typically a 1.50 or more.

I checked Target and a few other stores to see how their sales were, and they were at least 50% higher if not more or each item.

So I went to Walmart, and I bought $22.00 worth of art supplies for only $5.50.

I won't have to buy more of these items for at least a year, and I feel good ammount saving my family $16 or so.

But, I hate that I "caved" to the allmighty dollar and shopped at a store whose bussiness practices I don't believe in. I guess I just don't hate it enough to pay 3 or 4 times more money to get the same items elsewhere.

What would you do, or have you done?

ETA: I should include that we have tons of shopping options around us. Walmart is not at all the only place for me to shop. In fact, it is about 10 minutes further than Target, lots of drugstores, office stores etc. Also, for our family, the $16.00 savings was really nice given that we are cutting almost $50,000 from our budget, but not anywhere near determining if we could pay our mortgage, buy food etc. My point is that even though I appreciated the savings, it was still a choice and not really a nesessity for me.

[boysrus]

Originally Posted by ~ATenthMuse~

I have a question... Which is better, to shop at Kmart or Wal-mart or spend the gas to drive 45 miles round trip to shop elsewhere. I buy everything I can from small businesses, but sometimes... If they don't have what I'm looking for, what am I supposed to do???

When I lived where you live, I didn't shop at Walmart (well, once right after we moved in when it was after 11 pm and we wanted to use our hot tub and we needed cleaning stuff for it!) I felt better at shopping at KMart than WM because it is such a dying business. So, I would shop there if the Discount Grocery Outlet, hardware stores, or thrift shops couldn't take care of what I needed.

[nantahala]

Originally Posted by Mackenzie

My kids would rather go without $1 crayons than contribute to child slave labor. Yes, my 7 and 9 year olds know about this. They are very socio-aware and make very mature choices so as to have a little negative affect on the people around the world as possible. I am very lucky that I have children who do not value their wants more than the lives of others and don't often have to make the choice to deny them something or contribute to the drug of consumerism.

Hyperbole. Let me show it to you.

:

I safely deign to say that most people on MDC who shop at Wal-Mart are not thinking "yeah crayons for my kids, who gives a fudge about that slave labor!" Maybe I am naive, but I don't think folks are that crass.

If we really want to get into an intellectual discussion of child slavery let's start over in Africa where the kids are being kidnapped to for chocolate and diamonds --- Godiva and Tiffany's.

[Mackenzie]

Trust me, I know about chocolate and diamonds. That kind of happens when someone works in Fair Trade, ya know? We don't do chocolate other than Fair Trade and we don't so diamonds at all. I don't see your point. I, as well as my older two kids, are totally against any form of labor exploitation, be it .77 Crayolas or a 10k diamond. It matters not.

[Rainbowbird]

I have found that I can find things cheaper at places other than WalMart if I look around--and I don't mean driving 30 min. out of my way. If I watch the sales, I can get a 12 pack of Scott Tissue toilet paper (double rolls) for 5.99 at my local drugstore. That is at least $3 cheaper than WalMart. Same with paper towels--good ones go on sale at CVS for 5.99 an 8-pack, cheaper than WalMart.

My local grocery chain also has a lot of food items cheaper than WalMart! I swear, WalMart has marked up their prices in order to claim all the profits they can after putting a couple of smaller dept. stores in the area out of business.

When I became a SAHM I did a little test: I made a shopping list and shopped at my supermarket. The next time, I used the same list and shopped at Walmart. The cost was the same, maybe a few cents different. So I definitely don't feel compelled to shop there to save money.

I also find that staying out of WalMart saves money. I am not tempted to buy crap I don't need. The same goes for places like Target. In general I avoid all big box and discount stores. You go in for one thing, you come out with 10, because it was a good deal, and you might need it someday, or something. I love reading the Frugal Living forum here because it really keeps me straight with regards to simplifying and not buying crap--all manner of household stuff that one really doesn't need. Cleaning items, plastic stuff, etc. etc. etc.

[Nature]

Originally Posted by Mackenzie

My kids would rather go without $1 crayons than contribute to child slave labor. Yes, my 7 and 9 year olds know about this. They are very socio-aware and make very mature choices so as to have a little negative affect on the people around the world as possible. I am very lucky that I have children who do not value their wants more than the lives of others and don't often have to make the choice to deny them something or contribute to the drug of consumerism.

Oh. My. Is there no limit?
Really, do you know how that sounds? First my morals are questioned and rubbed in my face... now my kids...
Yikes.

"My kids would rather go without $1 crayons than contribute to child slave labor. Yes, my 7 and 9 year olds know about this. They are very socio-aware and make very mature choices so as to have a little negative affect on the people around the world as possible. I am very lucky that I have children who do not value their wants more than the lives of others and don't often have to make the choice to deny them something or contribute to the drug of consumerism"

[nannymom]

Originally Posted by nantahala

I think what Nannymom is saying, and correct me if I am wrong, is that there's a continuum of economic privilege (also encompassing geography here) that needs to be taken into consideration when talking about social movements (participating in a boycott) or overarching statements that take personal experience and blow them up into macro-size statements of facts. To dictate: Wal-Mart is evil, never shop there is an elitist statement because it does not take very REAL factors into account (ftr: I don't think anyone is dictating anything in this thread).

And I'd add again that the other national chain aren't a better choice or a more moral choice than Wal-Mart. IMO recycle, reuse, reduce, and help a neighbor are more important in my world (as they are ethical actions that everyone can take part in and not based on the $$$ in your pocket) than making shopping a purely ethical choice that ignores, oh, social and economical capital.

Thank you you said what I meant in a much more coherent way.

[Denvergirlie]

Being a savvy shopper negates me ever having to step foot into a Wal-mart. Office max had a sale this week, notebooks for .10; glur sticks for .10, crayons for .25. Got all school supplies taken care of. I can always find a better deals than shopping at Walmart, it jsut takes a bit more work. Work I am happy to put into my shopping behavior.

[Carolinamidwife]

Oh. My. Is there no limit?
Really, do you know how that sounds? First my morals are questioned and rubbed in my face... now my kids...
Yikes.

Don't feel bad. Sometimes bashing financially poor people who shop at Wal-Mart is the only form of activism that some people get around to. Not pointing any specific fingers at anyone in this thread but MDC is one of the few places I know of where someone might rip consumerism in one thread while simultaneously checking out of Hyenacart with a $75 diaper and a $200 sling. It is well known that MDC is a tad elitist, people can argue all they like but I'm sure were we to break it down the numbers would not come out in favor of the marginalized folks.

I'm sure it has been said but not everything at Wal-Mart is slave labor (although some of it is just like Target, Nike, Old Navy, The Gap... I could go on...) many stores have full food stores and the food there is legitimately cheaper than it is at many stores. I realize I am one of the lucky few who can afford to buy my food at Whole Foods or Earthfare and spend $30 on a single WAHM made shirt but the reality is that not everyone has my priorities (or my budget). I don't think so highly of myself as to believe everyone should feel exactly as I do and I certainly would never judge someone who felt they were making the best financial decision (maybe the only financial decision) for their family.

[Mackenzie]

Originally Posted by Nature

Oh. My. Is there no limit?
Really, do you know how that sounds? First my morals are questioned and rubbed in my face... now my kids...
Yikes.

"My kids would rather go without $1 crayons than contribute to child slave labor. Yes, my 7 and 9 year olds know about this. They are very socio-aware and make very mature choices so as to have a little negative affect on the people around the world as possible. I am very lucky that I have children who do not value their wants more than the lives of others and don't often have to make the choice to deny them something or contribute to the drug of consumerism"

Your bolding. Not mine. Ok so here, is this better?

The kids that live in this house would rather go without $1 crayons thank contribute to child slave labor. The older two of the three know about this. They are a little more than a tiny bit socio-aware and make a little more than a tiny bit mature choices so as to have as little negative effect on the people around the world as possible. The parents of these kids feel lucky that they value the lives of others a whole lot and require their parent (who make no mistake, is not me. God forbid I should be proud of MY kids) to make the choice to deny them something or contribute to the drug of consumerism.

That better for you?


Sheesh. I KNOW that not everyone's children are like mine. Mine just happen to be very aware. You want I should lie or hide that? Mine are also very aware of the war, domestic poverty and many other social issues. That is just the way it is. I am not insulting anyone else's children by being proud of mine.

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by Mackenzie

My kids would rather go without $1 crayons than contribute to child slave labor. Yes, my 7 and 9 year olds know about this. They are very socio-aware and make very mature choices so as to have a little negative affect on the people around the world as possible. I am very lucky that I have children who do not value their wants more than the lives of others and don't often have to make the choice to deny them something or contribute to the drug of consumerism.

I don't want to be snarky but not everyone who shops at Wal-Mart is shopping there because they are just into consuming for the sake of consuming. Again not everyone lives in a place with a vast array of choices as far as shopping and for some people maybe the difference of a $1-2 here or there is not a issue but for some folks it is.

I grew up pretty broke and have had a few bouts with lack of money as an adult and sometimes you do what you gotta do to put food on the table. If shopping at Wal-Mart means a child has food on the table and school supplies versus going without then call me a inconsiderate UA violation.

The thing is as others have said we constantly bash Wal-Mart but there are plenty other places that treat their employees like crap and deal in less than savory practices. Ideally we should all shop locally but sadly shopping locally is not always accessible to everyone. Again I use myself as an example, I went to the farmers market today and spent almost $40 buying milk, some local ground beef (1 lb), some kale, string beans, and zucchini. Its all good stuff but hardly several days worth of food and if I were in dire straights, it most certainly would not feed my family for days versus if I took that same $40 to Wal-Mart. Maybe in other areas you can get more at the market but not mine.

What you said really feels dismissive to the plight of others, why is it that we can care about people half way around the globe but have no compassion for our neighbors?

Shay

[nannymom]

Originally Posted by shayinme

I don't want to be snarky but not everyone who shops at Wal-Mart is shopping there because they are just into consuming for the sake of consuming. Again not everyone lives in a place with a vast array of choices as far as shopping and for some people maybe the difference of a $1-2 here or there is not a issue but for some folks it is.

I grew up pretty broke and have had a few bouts with lack of money as an adult and sometimes you do what you gotta do to put food on the table. If shopping at Wal-Mart means a child has food on the table and school supplies versus going without then call me a inconsiderate UA violation.

The thing is as others have said we constantly bash Wal-Mart but there are plenty other places that treat their employees like crap and deal in less than savory practices. Ideally we should all shop locally but sadly shopping locally is not always accessible to everyone. Again I use myself as an example, I went to the farmers market today and spent almost $40 buying milk, some local ground beef (1 lb), some kale, string beans, and zucchini. Its all good stuff but hardly several days worth of food and if I were in dire straights, it most certainly would not feed my family for days versus if I took that same $40 to Wal-Mart. Maybe in other areas you can get more at the market but not mine.

What you said really feels dismissive to the plight of others, why is it that we can care about people half way around the globe but have no compassion for our neighbors?

Shay