ABA vs. Attachment Parenting?

[mimtessa]

Hi - I've been an ABA (Applied Behavioral Analysis - typically intense one on one trial-based curriculum for people with autism) therapist/ educator for several years and have been an attached mom for one year. I've recently gone back to work and am having some trouble wrapping my head around ABA again.. Anyone else had experience with this?

For example, I feel like in many ways it's the cry-it-out mentality, I hear this often "He has to learn who's in charge," etc. Often there is some physical guidance/ placement of resistant child at table and chair, instructing them through tantrums, and I just feel like at what price will the academics be learned? Isn't there a better way? Am I just getting soft because of my mother hormones?

[feebeeglee]

I've never looked into getting ABA for my autistic son because frankly the whole idea really turns me off, especially the control issues.

We like DIR/Floortime, and a lot of folks on this board like RDI, which strikes me as highly structured Floortime.

I think if I was in another universe, I'd like to become a DIR or RDI therapist.

But I don't want to touch ABA with a ten foot pole.

[fluttermama]

I've never looked into getting ABA for my autistic son because frankly the whole idea really turns me off,

I completely agree. I think part of the struggle between ABA and AP is a simple matter of respect for the whole child. AP has it and ABA doesn't IMHO. I have heard good things about RDI therapy...we haven't pursued it b/c in order to get it we would still have to work with behavioral therapists and I don't want that. I am quite happy with simple OT and animal therapy here.

[Lovenest]

Originally Posted by fluttermama

I completely agree. I think part of the struggle between ABA and AP is a simple matter of respect for the whole child. AP has it and ABA doesn't IMHO. I have heard good things about RDI therapy...we haven't pursued it b/c in order to get it we would still have to work with behavioral therapists and I don't want that. I am quite happy with simple OT and animal therapy here.

Sorry not to high-jack this thread but what is animal therapy?
It sounds very interesting to me as my son loves animals! We have 1 dog and 2 cats.

[wonderwahine]

I don't have any advice, but this thread now has educated me to stay away from ABA therapy. I am not sure, but I think that might be the therapy the OT reccomended us looking into later on once we get a little further in with ds's therapys. But If thats what it is, I am not going to do it. I refuse to have him cry in order to "learn" something.

[MyTwoAs]

I'm sorry that you are feeling conflicted now that you are looking at things from a mother's perspective instead of just a professional's perspective.

Like the others have mentioned I, too, have stayed away from ABA because from what I've read it really doesn't sound AP at all. Not everything I do is AP because raising two spectrum kiddos sometimes calls for it but I'm talking about things like counting to 3 to get my son to do something that needs to be done (like putting on clothes so we can get to a therapy appointment). In my local autism community ABA is heavily pushed as *the* behavior approach. I've instead embraced Greenspan's Floortime model as it is much more child-friendly IMO.

[sbgrace]

I have absolutely no personal experience with ABA so I planned to stay away from this thread. I am sure there are certain situations where a behavioral approach is helpful--such as potty training maybe (I imagine....we're a mess there!).

Floor time and RDI take a completely different approach to autism therapy I know. They are relationship based and are the direction I selected for my son. RDI founder/creator seems to have a major criticism of ABA along the lines of give certain input, get certain output, predictible outcomes are emphasized (?) which isn't what the real world is like at all. Ability to have a conversation for example depends on the individual's ability to handle unpredictible responses. It also depends on the child grasping that sharing enjoyment with another person makes things more fun. Floor time and RDI both have this shared enjoyment as a fundamental step--and one that made a world of difference for my son's life.

Most important to me is there is no concern at all that I will regret the therapies I'm doing some day. They are play and similar activities that I can and do do with my typical son as well. I would be hesitant to do something routinely that I wouldn't do with a typically developing child. These are children first and foremost. I imagine the conflict in your mind is because there really is something that isn't right (and I know there are behavioral and even ABA approaches that take a gentle, play based track). I think it takes courage to face that in your mind let alone post on this board.

[LoveBeads]

I like DIR/floortime. I especially like Stanley Greenspan. I have seen him speak and his overwhelming respect for children is more than apparent. In his seminars, he shows video of the methods employed in working with young autistic children and then shows videos of the same children several years later - the results speak for themselves.

What I dislike about ABA is what I like about DIR - the child is not treated as an unemotional object to be trained, the parents are the ones who need to be trained so that they can understand their child's world. He also sees autistic children as "emotional" which is not the traditional view of autistics children - they have been labeled as not capable of certain emotions (or appropriate emotion). He shows how to find those emotions and bring them out.

[Pyrodjm]

ABA is defined as "the science in which procedures derived from the principles of behavior a..."(Cooper, Heron and Heward, 1987).

"Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) is a systematic process of studying and modifying observable behavior through a manipulation of the environment. ...It is comprised of an experimental approach to manipulating the environment and tracking alterations in behavior.This allows the discovery and manipulation of functional relationships between behavior and environmental variables." - Wikipedia
Bolding mine

As a teacher that has used ABA methodology, along with some principles of RDI and floortime for several years I wanted to comment here. What pps have said about some of the practice of ABA being at odds with AP is true. But the overall princples are at work in all of are lives, in all relationships.

For example:
A baby says "mama" for the first time and is rewarded with tons of attention and affection from her mother. Baby learns that saying mama causes mommy to pay attention her. Each time she calls her mother and she responds this idea is reinforced and the likeihood of it happening again increases. If something happens and the child suddenly is living with only dad the behavior of calling mom will decrease (since it is not being reinforced). Her calling "dada" will increase dramatically, since calling dad is now being reinforced with dad's attention.

Another example:
DH decides to pick up your favorite flowers/dessert/perfume on his way home. You are thrilled and give him an especially nice evening. Likelihood of him continue to bring home gifts increases.

ABA is a science based on manipulating observable behavior. It is often slammed as cold and unfeeling because it does not take into account emotions and thoughts as most teaching strategies do. This is because it's focus is on observable, measurable behaviors. The "mind" is only considered in terms of how it effects a person's reaction to stimuli. Truly objective data cannot be collected on thoughts or feelings. And ABA is data driven.

This sounds harsh until you consider that when used correctly ABA techniques can teach a child to learn in "natural ways" by developing imitaion skills, play skills and social skills. These skills when mastered, allow child with ASD to pick up things from their enviorment. But initially these skills often need to taught in an isolated way. I work mostly in homes now and I spend less that 25% of my teaching time on discrete trials, its a tool, one of many we use. I train the teachers I work with to individualize instruction so as to meet each child's needs, keeping it as natural possible. But in the end it is a behavioral approach.

I often say that if there was one perfect way to teach children with autism, we would all do that and we would all be thrilled. But no methodology works for every child. Parents choose for themsevles which approach to use. I just hate to think of the parents that choose ABA to being made to feel like they have decided to treat their children without respect. ABA has been proven an effective intervention for individuals with ASD. Much of it's effectiveness depends on the skill of the therapist and the child themselves, however. But it is not for everyone.

[feebeeglee]

I agree with Dana. ABA does not have to be awful, by any means! While I personally would not use it as our primary method to teach Bede, ever, I would be happy to consider it for specific skills like toileting, dealing with boredom when having to sit quietly at church or in a waiting room, going to the dentist, etc.

All the ABA programs I think are well done are done with no negative coercion of the child at all and no aversives. Those are very rare, in my limited experience, unfortunately.

Kristina Chew is an autism blogger who describes her ups and downs with her autistic son Charlie and their journey to a great ABA program. It was a rocky road! Her blogs are http://www.kristinachew.com/ and http://www.autismvox.com/

ETA: I guess I would touch it with a ten foot pole. But that's as close as I get!

[BellinghamCrunchie]

I love floortime and RDI, and I think they are among the best choices of interventions.

But I always hate it when I see ABA being bashed. I have used ABA for over a decade. We never forced a child to do something they obviously disliked. We wouldn't force them to sit at a table if they were crying, for example. We used NO punishers or time outs. ABA is just a tool. You can use it while respecting the child and you can use it to build an attachment with a child. It is not at odds with AP, or, at least, it doesn't have to be. It simply depends on how its applied, and with what intent. It can be very effective.

When I use floortime with our DD, it becomes apparent to me how ABA techniques pop up there, too, they are just not the focus of the intervention. ABA principles are everywhere, in every action and situation - its not something you can choose easily to NOT do. You can choose to not deliberately apply ABA, but behavioral principles are still going to be happening. Some people choose to take advantage of those principles when working with a child; some don't - ABA is not "evil" in itself but it can be cruel and disrespectful or loving and respectful depending on how it is being applied.

[wonderwahine]

I see, thank you pp's for the clarification. I will give it a shot if its reccomended, but if anything feels "off" i will stop.

[PikkuMyy]

I'm also a therapist who uses ABA quite a lot, particularly as a tool to analyze behavior, and communication and determine the best way to teach something.

I'm also an AP teacher/babysitter (no kids yet) so they can totally go hand in hand. You just need to make sure that you maintain your AP philosophy while using ABA as a tool rather than a philosophy.

[christyc]

Originally Posted by PikkuMyy

You just need to make sure that you maintain your AP philosophy while using ABA as a tool rather than a philosophy.

I had a hard time reconciling my work as an ABA therapist with my role as an AP parent after the birth of my second child, but almost ANY method is as cold or as warm emotionally as you make it in implementation.

ETA: I think that different ABA programs can be different depending on who is teaching it. The consultants from the UCLA program I've worked with have been consistently compassionate and kind, as have those from the Wisconsin Autism Project (this was 6-10 years ago). Those from the Bancroft program in NJ have (in my experience) been consistently mean and disrespectful of the child's feelings. Lots of other programs have been somewhere in between. So, keep in mind that everything "ABA" isn't exactly the same.

[Jennifer Z]

I think any therapy program can be ruined or enhanced by the therapist. The therapists attitudes and approach has far, far more to do with how effective and how appropriate any therapy is. If the therapist has an inherent respect and love for children/people, then it really doesn't matter what form the therapy takes because it will be adjusted to meet the needs of the individual instead of the dogma of the therapy school.

edited to add another train of thought:

I think the main frustration with ABA isn't "ABA" itself, it is because it is often the only therapy that might be used by government agencies or covered by insurance (if you are lucky enough to have insurance cover anything). Because of this, you get people in there who would probably be weeded out if there wasn't more demand than supply right now, so you are naturally going to get some bad apples. I don't think that means the therapy itself is bad, it is that there just aren't enough therapist or funding to get more therapist. It is the system that is bad, not the people working in it as a rule.

[wonderwahine]

Originally Posted by Jennifer Z

I think any therapy program can be ruined or enhanced by the therapist. The therapists attitudes and approach has far, far more to do with how effective and how appropriate any therapy is. If the therapist has an inherent respect and love for children/people, then it really doesn't matter what form the therapy takes because it will be adjusted to meet the needs of the individual instead of the dogma of the therapy school.

Good point

[fluttermama]

The part of ABA that is scary is that it places the person doing the therapy above the person receiving the therapy. ABA can go so far as to actually use shocking devices on autistic children (of course, worst scenario and not used in typical places, but still shows the whole theory clearly) who are not behaving. We don't do rewards and consequences here at all b/c they have no limit, really, in manipulating another person to do what you want them to do. The entire philosophy is based on the behavior of dogs and I refuse to do it just because it has become the norm in our system. Actually we have removed ourselves from the system altogether.

Sorry not to high-jack this thread but what is animal therapy?
It sounds very interesting to me as my son loves animals! We have 1 dog and 2 cats.

For about a year now we have had a therapy dog and owner come to see us and even go to a doctor appointment with us. We also have a bunny. Bunnies are supposed to be therapeutic and we have seen it drastically help our dd. She even has a front carrier for it (ever see Mozart and the Whale? ). We now got her a yellow lab/shephed mix, a very calming dog who helps her to make transitions better and who helps motivate her to get moving!

[Pyrodjm]

Originally Posted by fluttermama

ABA can go so far as to actually use shocking devices on autistic children (of course, worst scenario and not used in typical places, but still shows the whole theory clearly) who are not behaving.

Psychotherapy can "go as far as to use shock therapy" on severly depressed patients. In fact, thats it's most common use. We wouldn't advise a person against seeing a psychiatrist because of this VERY unusual and rare practice, would we? Disicpline "can go as far" as beating children to death, yet we still all practice it in some form in order to raise our children to be healthy adults.

Aversives (def: painful or noxious stimuli used to punish an individual for his or her behavior, or for failing to comply with a command) of any kind are an EXTREME. The use of them has been expresslly FORBIDDEN in any form in all of the programs that I have worked in. Using them would lead to me losing my job and possibly my teacher license, I could also be brought up on criminal charges. I've never seen it practiced.

Fluttermama, I understand that you have chosen to go a different route as far as therapy is concern and of course that is your right. But to say that shock therapy "shows the whole theory clearly", is simply untrue.

Originally Posted by fluttermama

The part of ABA that is scary is that it places the person doing the therapy above the person receiving the therapy.

It is teacher/therapist directed as oppossed to child-directed therapies(ie. floortime). Most teaching models are teacher-directed. I don't see how this makes ABA horrific.

[mimtessa]

Wow.

OK, so, a lot of people seem to agree with my initial thinking here. I would just like to echo the teacher's perspective here, I never used ABA without first developing a relationship with the children I work with, and I do believe that ABA can be practiced with respect for the child and has been very effective and successful for many, which is why it's so common now. And I always introduce myself to parents as a kinder, gentler ABA than what they might be used to. In my experience, working with the child's natural interests yields more positive results, without compromising the clinical integrity of ABA.

The particular case I began to question was because parents weren't seeing results according to a timeline that they had in their heads and I was told I needed to be "firmer" with a child who is clearly very sensitive to proximities and taking his time getting comfortable with me.

My understanding of "firmer" included keeping him physically in a chair even though he will be screaming and physically resisting. I was previously choosing to ignore his outbursts rather than physically maintaining him and wait until he showed that he was ready before giving him a treat, otherwise known as a reinforcer. This is also ABA. It just wasn't as "successful" as the mom wanted.

But, I guess that's what a lot of people expect ABA to be, which is disappointing because as I said, done well it is very effective. Also, it's not meant to be a therapy, it's a means of educating. To me, effective education is therapeutic, but that's a story for another day.

[AllyRae]

ABA has it's place... I am an AP parent to two kids. I'm also a behavior specialist that focuses mainly on ABA. You don't need ABA for every behavior, but it does has it's place. I never ever use punishment or aversive stimuli in my practice. I agree with mimtessa...