Washington Post article is up - Page 2

[MamaRabbit]

I learned something new.... did you know that a breech baby is sideways?!?!


My dad forwarded it to me, all excited as if I'd never heard about UC before LOL

[Begunda]

I just finished reading the article and discussion. I really enjoyed reading the responses from Laura and the midwife in the discussion. I really hope that it leads women to look into choosing a homebirth (either assisted or unassisted) for themselves.

[Sileree]

Imagine if you replaced the title with: women are choosing to ____________ without medical assistance.

*Eat (You could choke! You need to eat somewhere a properly trained medic could intubate you immediately.)
*Defecate (The poop could be too big to come out! You might die of exhaustion.)
*Urinate (You could get an infection!)
*Make boogers (Your body is not capable of really fighting bacteria properly!)
*Menstruate (Those cycles are so complicated, women are just not in their right mind you know. What if something goes wrong and one hormone isn't produced in the right quantities? We'd have to monitor you to make sure.)
*Lactate (Huh, as if YOU could provide enough proper nutrition to your baby. Your body doesn't know what its doing.)
*Sweat
*Orgasm (You're not orgasming fast enough. Here, let me turn on some bright lights and help you with foreplay. Besides, your husband needs a heart monitor on him, he could die of a heart attack from the exertion you know.)

[cottonwood]

Oh! I didn't know the Griesemers had had a sixth child! Wonderful! I like the picture of them too -- they look so... so... normal. I mean, you know, contrary to the mainstream perception of what UCers are.

[thebarkingbird]

i did love that! a man actually identifying someone's refusing his services as an act of hubris

as a writer (couldn't tell w/ all my hurried posts could ya. used to do it professionally actually) i noticed that all the opinions of doctors were introduced as straightforward quotes or presented as facts. it's easy to misinterpret " it's a fact that so and so's (in this case doctors) believe (read as know) x " as the statement it's a fact that x. all the UCers quotes were prefaced by "she believes" or so and so thinks, making them unmistakable as "just an opinion"

writers as the paper where i used to work used that style when attempting to maintain journalistic integrity while talking about white supremacists and such.

[2bluefish]

"To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"

There is a fundamental flaw in Ms Rothman's underlying assumption - I do not go outside the system because it is broken. I go outside the system BECAUSE I DO NOT NEED IT - IT IS USELESS TO ME!

Ah, better now...

[wannabe]

"To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"

Oh my word, and this woman claims to know about birth? What ISN'T broken in the system? cripes, that's scary.

[michellyn]

Originally Posted by 2bluefish

"To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"

After reading the discussion with Laura and Rothman, I wonder if this quote wasn't taken a bit out of context. In the discussion, Rothman clearly feels the hospital system doesn't work and that homebirth is superior (even while opposing UC). My read (after reading the discussion) is that she may have meant this to highlight that the system has problems. I'd be surprised if she meant that homebirth midwifery is "the system."

[michellyn]

Also, just to note, I'm not a true UCer (my first twin was born before the midwife arrived, so I'm an accidental UCer!). I definitely considered it, but I know it would be out of the question with my DH (the accidental UC scared him so much that I don't know if he would feel comfortable with another homebirth--if we get pregnant again, I'll have to work on him on that). I really admire how much knowledge you all have regarding what to do in different situations, but I definitely wasn't brave enough to UC twins (way to go, MamaRabbit!).

[bryonyvaughn]

Rabbit trail warning:

Originally Posted by michellyn

Also, just to note, I'm not a true UCer (my first twin was born before the midwife arrived, so I'm an accidental UCer!). I definitely considered it, but I know it would be out of the question with my DH (the accidental UC scared him so much that I don't know if he would feel comfortable with another homebirth--if we get pregnant again, I'll have to work on him on that)...

Well if you have another birth and the baby comes too fast for attendance, depending on your intended birthplace you'll be in your car on the road or in your home.

I have a couple friends who've had car births. The one whose water broke in the car was never able to get the smell out of the carpet/padding, ventilation system. They ended up trading it in. My precipitous labors were all at home. I vote for home.

~BV

[Jenlaana]

I've had to step away from the "fight" for birth rights because I just cant help but get SOOO ticked off by it all. The quote:

"To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"

is what they should ALL be asking themselves. If this was really a service put in place to help women, it should not have turned into all the garbage that it has. I really feel like the system is simply so broken that there is no point in being a part of it. I just flat out refuse to use my children's births as a way to fight the system. I made the conscious choice to avoid the hospital (and any kind of OB/CNM for the last month or so) because birth just isnt a time when I wanted to fight and fear for my safety and my rights. No woman should be put into that situation.

I give Laura and Lynn huge props for being advocates for UC. I definitely think it should be an option, and it burns me up that we, as women, are told what we need to do by those who have no idea what is going on with our bodies.

EDIT: and why did they lump it in with non-vaxing??? I see that as a totally seperate issue. Does everyone here not vax? I really never saw it as a correlation. I hate when they lump things together to get the "vote" of those who find something else extreme t hat is completely unrelated.

[Jenlaana]

Anthropologists that observed healthy tribal cultures a hundred years ago often reported that they rarely saw a death or complication in childbirth.

Is there a source for this Laura? I'd love to read up on it more.

Why do you think it would be something that people would want to do, apart from cost and novelty?

I paid for my ENTIRE prenatal care and childbirth for my last child prior to changing plans and UC'ing. (minus about $54 that they had the nerve to call me and ask for) And I dont know about this woman, but my daughter's birth was too important to take "novelty" into consideration. Novelty to me is a healthy woman having unnecessary elective surgery.

Complications of cesarean birth are still the leading cause of death for women of childbearing age, and cesareans also increase the chances of neonatal death significantly.

Just felt the need to repeat this... since so many people seem to think that cesareans are a good way out of birthing. (I had one w/ my first because my bp wasa bit high and the OB said "you should have a cesarean because it will hurt less")

[Baelzharon]

My first baby was UC and our 2nd one due in October will be as well. Our first baby wasn't our original intent to be a home birth however. We were lied to, coerced, threatened and finally ignored and dropped (on our due date) by the OB/GYN we chose based on their "good" reviews. As an educated adult I did the research, read the same medical journals and research papers the doctors did and came to a conclusion that medical intervention on a healthy woman, who has a healthy pregnancy was hundreds of times more risky then a UC on the side of the road, let alone at a home prepared for birth with or without a midwife.

I was disappointed that there wasn't any representation in either the Post article or the discussion from the fathers point of view. Sure we're there to support you, love you and care for you during pregnancy, birth and afterwards but we're just as frightened and concerned as you are about the whole process from start to finish. While most women before and during labor are focused on the baby, we men are worried about about the both of you. I hope future discussions have more men included in them.


As a father, and a husband I hope these discussions continue to get national media attention. Our medical system is a business, and that business not often has the best interest of the patients in mind. It's of no surprise to me that a hospital which has to have on staff all those nurses, OBs, anesthesiologists, and of course the "equipment" needs to set policies in place to ensure they get the most money possible to pay for them. If hospitals had their way 100% of births would be c-sections, and that's a future I care not to ever see.

[laurashanley]

Originally Posted by michellyn

After reading the discussion with Laura and Rothman, I wonder if this quote wasn't taken a bit out of context. In the discussion, Rothman clearly feels the hospital system doesn't work and that homebirth is superior (even while opposing UC). My read (after reading the discussion) is that she may have meant this to highlight that the system has problems. I'd be surprised if she meant that homebirth midwifery is "the system."

You're absolutely right. Mairi honestly feels that's what people should be asking - what is so wrong with our system that these women don't want to be a part of it? Because she absolutely believes there are many things wrong with it. She and I have been emailing and she's actually much more supportive of UC than the article would appear (or at least a woman's right to choose it). She told the Post when they first contacted her that if they were looking for an anti-UC midwife, she wouldn't really fit the bill. But they chose her anyway, and I thought she did a nice job in the discussion.

I'll respond to more comments soon. Must walk doggie.
Laura

[AngelBee]

I just lost my post......2nd time today!

[michellyn]

On the rabbit trail

Originally Posted by bryonyvaughn

Well if you have another birth and the baby comes too fast for attendance, depending on your intended birthplace you'll be in your car on the road or in your home.

I have a couple friends who've had car births. The one whose water broke in the car was never able to get the smell out of the carpet/padding, ventilation system. They ended up trading it in. My precipitous labors were all at home. I vote for home.

~BV

You're absolutely right--if we'd planned on a hospital birth, this would have been a car birth (a fact I've tried to remind DH of). I sure hope I can convince him otherwise if we have another.

[accountclosed3]

i was reading a bit, and i did get an answer to my question as to "why women 'need' to be monitored."

the MW here mentions that MWs act as "life guards" in this situation, and that when she gave birth, she wasn't capable of being her own "life guard" and she didn't want her husband to have to be her "life guard."

so, this is interesting to me.

when i think of a life guard, i have two images in my mind:

1. professional life guards on the beaches in places such as Australia where the training and competition to be a life guard is intense, where you have risks such as sharks and other majorly dangerous sea creatures to deal with, and most of them have EMT or higher levels of training; and

2. teenagers at the local pool who have taken a weekend certification class that included CPR and first aid training. they learned to use some basic equipment (life saving devices, certain holds to draw someone out of the water, etc) and they learned the basic 'rules' of the pool itself.

beyond this, for the most part, the places where i tend to swim most are unguarded places. I should assert that i know how to swim, and i would consider myself a very strong swimmer. I am used to open water swimming--generally in places with few truly dangerous animals living in those waters (ie, i do not swim in bayou's very often--in fact, never).

now here's the thing. for the most part, lifeguards are necessary when we're talking about people who don't know how to swim, people who don't have a clear understanding of the risks of say--jumping on top of someone while they're swimming (i had this happen recently at a pool, where the teenaged 'life guard' didn't do a darn thing, even though she saw the kid jump on me. i grabbbed him and pulled him up--he said "sorry" and i said "don't do that, you could kill someone!" the lifeguard did nothing--so, i was, effectively, the life guard).

now, here's the thing. as a strong swimmer who understands basic water safety, knows CPR, and is generally well aware of her surroundings and capable of caring for herself, i don't see myself as a person who needs a life guard to swim in my back yard pool (i don't have one, but if i did). There are few risks to me swimming by myself in my back yard pool because 1. i know how to swim; 2. i'm informed about how to swim; 3. i trust that i can swim; and 4. i am capable of being aware of my surroundings, even when swimming.

so, i have this feeling that i dn't really "need" a "lifeguard" when i swim.

And in most ways, i feel the same about birth.

my body already knows how to do it, but i'm also "learning to swim" by learning about birth--talking to you, reading, watching videos, etc. While i haven't actually "gotten into the pool"--i assume that i hvae the nature skill and talent to swim.

having taught swimming lessons, i find that the biggest barrier to swimming is not anything physical (ie, arms not long enough to stroke, not enough body fat to maintain bouyancy, etc), but rather abject fear. people fear the water.

i never feared the water, honestly. i like the water. i want to be in the water. you can't keep me out of the water! LOL as a kid, i may not have had the awareness to understand the complexities of swimming--which is why i was told to never swim without an adult present. At 16, i was given permission to swim in open waters alone because it was understood or believed that i had the capacity to take care of myself while in the water. I also worked as a 'life guard' that summer at our neighborhood swimming hole (and yes, it was a paid position). it was a small lake.

so, here's the deal.

i'm smart. i'm unafraid. i'm educated. i'm healthy.

i'm not in a high risk situation (ie, no snakes on my homebirth such that i'd need a life guard to keep me safe from them).

i can birth.

why do i need a life guard?

i'm not seeking one. i don't need one (i can take care of myself--or i am my own life guard). i don't want my hsuband to be one.

just one of those perspective things, i guess.

[Baelzharon]

Originally Posted by michellyn

You're absolutely right--if we'd planned on a hospital birth, this would have been a car birth (a fact I've tried to remind DH of). I sure hope I can convince him otherwise if we have another.

If you want some help convincing him I suggest you bring along some medical articles that explain the truth about UC, c-sections and hospital interventions. Men typically won't be won over going the emotional route because to be honest we're not wired that way. Let him read the cold hard facts, and he'll come to understand that letting nature go through it's normal course is best. If he's still leaning towards a hospital or midwife you can suggest having a midwife/duela present before or after the birth.

[2bluefish]

I do not go outside the system because it is broken. I go outside the system BECAUSE I DO NOT NEED IT - IT IS USELESS TO ME!

Come on now - I'm not the only one - right?!

This is a fundamental thing that people miss.

I don't plan to homeschool because public school sucks. I plan to homeschool, because *I want to teach my own kids.*

I don't wear my baby because strollers are evil. I wear my baby, because I want to wear my baby.

I don't plan to UC because midwives/OBs/hospitals/birth centers suck. I plan to UC, because *I want to birth my baby alone or with my immediate family.*

When we allow people to reduce our choice to simply opposing another choice, then we allow them to invalidate the intrinsic value of our choice.

[2bluefish]

Originally Posted by zoebird

why do i need a life guard?

i'm not seeking one. i don't need one (i can take care of myself--or i am my own life guard). i don't want my hsuband to be one.

: