Bitchy, Diva Attitude - Page 4

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by Oriole

Once, I had a professor who pointed out that there were studies done on how much better people do on presentations if they dress up... What we wear affects us, consciously or subconsciously. That's that...

So.. if you wear things like:

"Can't listen, you are dumb"
"It's all about me, deal with it"

I'll think of you a certain way... I'll make certain judgments about parents who dress up their kids in certain things (and I'm not talking about princesses or even Disney characters here, but things that make vulgar statements). I think as a parent, you have to make sure your daughter understands that many will think of her as a selfish, self-centered being if she walks out of the house like that.

Why? Because those are selfish and self-centered statements, and obviously, she endorces them by wearing them.

Just because it is funny to you, doesn't mean it's not mean-spirited.
Humor doesn't have to be mean-spirited.

I'm sure you're opening yourself up for twenty replies or so about how you're "being judgmental" and how you "shouldn't judge people by what they wear."

These are very often (not always, but often) the same people who want messages on clothing to express their identity...or to give them one.

Those people want an impossible thing: they want clothing to define (or create) their identities but don't want to be classified or labeled as belonging to those identities. They want to mean something and not mean it; they want to express an idea and not be subject to the consequences of expressing that idea.

The reality of the matter is just as you said: people do judge you by what you wear...and rightly so. QUITE OBVIOUSLY, the sum total of a person's identity cannot be determined by one t-shirt and there may be a host of reasons why that person is wearing a t-shirt with a mean-spirited message on it, but for the most part, one's clothing -- including a t-shirt with a message on it -- provides a significant clue about how a person wants others to perceive her or him. Every woman who covers for modesty knows that, to take one example.

All that I can say is not to be surprised when people use their judgment -- the ability to come to a conclusion based on evidence and one of the most superior qualities that human beings possess -- to come to a conclusion about the wearer, feeble protests of "Don't judge me!" to the contrary.

[Krystal323]

:

My whole family loves Hot Topic and Claire's, but my kids will be the first to point out something that's "not very nice!" in those stores.

interesting thread

[CaraNicole]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

Well, let me see.
Is my daughter wearing a t-shirt that says, "I am a Vicodin addict" or "I love Colbert the Vicodin addict"? If so, then yeah. Otherwise, you are comparing apples to oranges. One is a product marketed specifically to girls and is sold in shops patronized largely by tweens and teens (Claire's); the other is a comedy program on Comedy Central whose audience is largely an adult one and is intended to be such. Again, since apparently I have failed to make my point clear, I have no objection to black humor. I have an objection to girls, including my daughter, being sold only one of three possible identities: Bitch Diva, Princess, and Slut.

Moreover, the previous poster was so right I'd like to say it again: Let's not forget anytime soon that Happy Bunny and its ilk are produced by a corporation who did enough focus marketing to decide that mean-spirited statements are somehow "ironic" when coming out of the mouth of a bunny and will sell to tween girls chafing against the other two identities offered to them. It's faux-rebellion at its finest: "Look, I bought this; look at how edgy I am!"

And thanks, Caranicole, for also providing the web page source for these links:

Future Diva

Future Princess

Future Slut

If that's what your upset over, never mind. I can see that we are never going to agree and frankly the longer I'm in this thread the more I think my head is going to explode. Well according to your logic when you wear a shirt "promoting someone" as you say wouldn't you be "promoting" everything they do on their show or atleast be in agreement with what they say? It's the same thing but since this thread is all anti happy bunny no one cares, got it.

Originally Posted by bigeyes

I don't think any of those were even remotely like the stuff we were talking about. Except for the fact that they have the bunny on them, I mean.

We were talking about perpetuating the girl on girl hatred and sexualization of little girls. I don't see that in the examples you gave.

:

But it's kind of funny you characterize yourself as a badass streetwalker.

Well since it's the same bunny it's relevent, I'm suprised noone found a double meaning on those... No I don't characterize myself as a badass streetwalker the momma who sent me the DDDDC does, I'm not sure if you know how a DDDDC works but you do not get to pick them. It's a joke and I took it as such (actually me and that momma had a great laugh on it) but if I ever end up on a street corner I'll be sure to blame a momma on here for sending me that(well since it affects how I feel about myself and all ). Aparently your not allowed to make a joke anymore. See that's the thing with comedy either everything is funny or nothing is you can't pick and choose what people can make fun of or you open yourself to censorship. I am happy that some people in this world still have a sense of humor. Once again if you don't like the stuff don't buy it. Anyways I'm off to go poison some cookies.

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by CaraNicole

I am happy that some people in this world still have a sense of humor.

Once again, why does humor have to put others down? Why does it have to be mean-spirited? And why does a 12 year old needs a vulgar statement on her t-shirt to be funny?

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by AmyY

The Stronger Women Get, the More Men Love Football.
http://www.amazon.com/Stronger-Women...6310410&sr=1-1

thank you!

[mtiger]

Originally Posted by Oriole

Once again, why does humor have to put others down? Why does it have to be mean-spirited? And why does a 12 year old needs a vulgar statement on her t-shirt to be funny?

Exactly. Crass is... crass.

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

I'm sure you're opening yourself up for twenty replies or so about how you're "being judgmental" and how you "shouldn't judge people by what they wear."

These are very often (not always, but often) the same people who want messages on clothing to express their identity...or to give them one.

Those people want an impossible thing: they want clothing to define (or create) their identities but don't want to be classified or labeled as belonging to those identities. They want to mean something and not mean it; they want to express an idea and not be subject to the consequences of expressing that idea.

The reality of the matter is just as you said: people do judge you by what you wear...and rightly so. QUITE OBVIOUSLY, the sum total of a person's identity cannot be determined by one t-shirt and there may be a host of reasons why that person is wearing a t-shirt with a mean-spirited message on it, but for the most part, one's clothing -- including a t-shirt with a message on it -- provides a significant clue about how a person wants others to perceive her or him. Every woman who covers for modesty knows that, to take one example.

All that I can say is not to be surprised when people use their judgment -- the ability to come to a conclusion based on evidence and one of the most superior qualities that human beings possess -- to come to a conclusion about the wearer, feeble protests of "Don't judge me!" to the contrary.

I see this all the time in people who dress in undershirts and holey jeans to apply for a job or go out to eat, then complain they don't get an interview, or can't get past the door because of the dress code. Do we really need Getting A Job and Fine Dining 101? Is it necessary for the boss to have to tell your coworker not to wear a tube top to work?

To me this stuff is obvious, yet I see children wearing stuff that characterizes them as obnoxious, slutty, etc. I can't imagine wanting someone to view your children that way. And yet, here we are having this conversation.

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by CaraNicole

Well since it's the same bunny it's relevent, I'm suprised noone found a double meaning on those... No I don't characterize myself as a badass streetwalker the momma who sent me the DDDDC does, I'm not sure if you know how a DDDDC works but you do not get to pick them. It's a joke and I took it as such (actually me and that momma had a great laugh on it) but if I ever end up on a street corner I'll be sure to blame a momma on here for sending me that(well since it affects how I feel about myself and all ). Aparently your not allowed to make a joke anymore. See that's the thing with comedy either everything is funny or nothing is you can't pick and choose what people can make fun of or you open yourself to censorship. I am happy that some people in this world still have a sense of humor. Once again if you don't like the stuff don't buy it. Anyways I'm off to go poison some cookies.

You still don't get it. Nobody has a problem with black humor. What we have a problem with is selling stuff to our children that sexualizes them or encourages them to be nasty and mean. Your particular happy bunny examples were not as extreme as the ones mentioned earlier. Not even close.
I don't think anyone is saying they are anti-humor.

I for one just don't want to see my daughter buying things that characterize her as a slut, a princess or a diva/bitch. I believe other posters have made that point as well. I think you missed the point.

It isn't about humor or the lack of it. It's about teaching our children that women are not all sluts, divas, bitches and princesses.

But, you are right, I have no idea what ddddc is. I do think it's ironic that you posted in this topic and you have that streetwalker thing there since we are complaining about our daughters being characterized that way. I would not find it funny if someone called me that as a joke

[AmyY]

Originally Posted by bigeyes

thank you!

You're welcome!

[AlmostAPpropriate]

Originally Posted by CaraNicole

Well according to your logic when you wear a shirt "promoting someone" as you say wouldn't you be "promoting" everything they do on their show or atleast be in agreement with what they say? It's the same thing but since this thread is all anti happy bunny no one cares, got it.

I agree with that. If I were a fan of Comedian X and wore a TShirt with her name on it, and she publicly endorsed spanking or she starred in a formula add - you bet, Id quit wearing the TShirt.

[CaraNicole]

Originally Posted by bigeyes

You still don't get it. Nobody has a problem with black humor. What we have a problem with is selling stuff to our children that sexualizes them or encourages them to be nasty and mean. Your particular happy bunny examples were not as extreme as the ones mentioned earlier. Not even close.
I don't think anyone is saying they are anti-humor.

I for one just don't want to see my daughter buying things that characterize her as a slut, a princess or a diva/bitch. I believe other posters have made that point as well. I think you missed the point.

It isn't about humor or the lack of it. It's about teaching our children that women are not all sluts, divas, bitches and princesses.

But, you are right, I have no idea what ddddc is. I do think it's ironic that you posted in this topic and you have that streetwalker thing there since we are complaining about our daughters being characterized that way. I would not find it funny if someone called me that as a joke

Ok I can sum this up...I think without even stepping on toes. I personally don't see happy bunny as being bitchy, diva, slut, and princess.
I see it as tounge in cheek, now as for clothes that do have
"super bitch" "the hotness" "future porn star" "I'm hung like a 5 year old" "kiss my black ass" oh and the 3 yr. old that had a HUGE pot leaf on his t-shirt
THOSE are the shirts that seeing kinds in would make me go huh, WTF? I have seen ALL those shirts on kids under 5ish. So when mommas are getting offended by a teen wanting happy bunny, I think of it as PG to what ELSE is out there. I hope that makes sense. If someone is willing to explain why some of the happy bunny stuff is so bad for a teen, I'd really like to hear your view point I'm open to stuff. I know everyone has a different comfort level so I'm curious why PG things to me are so bad to others, It's my food for thought today if you will.

The ddddc came from the ddddc virgin club. The thread is in TAO I believe and it really was funny, if you read it you'll get the whole streetwalker thing.

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by CaraNicole

now as for clothes that do have
"super bitch" "the hotness" "future porn star" "I'm hung like a 5 year old"

Now you're starting to get it.

[chicagomom]

Originally Posted by silly_scout

Women can now CHOOSE to stay in high paying positions. So sorry I thought seeing female CEOs and women making six figures was "advancement".

Which women get to "choose to work?"

It's good that some women get to choose to work. But this isn't really a *choice* for more and more women - they have to work outside the home. This trend that you are seeing isn't the advancement of the feminist agenda, it's the advancement of the capitalist agenda. And that same agenda is reflected in many of these tshirts.

[silly_scout]

Originally Posted by chicagomom

Which women get to "choose to work?"

It's good that some women get to choose to work. But this isn't really a *choice* for more and more women - they have to work outside the home. This trend that you are seeing isn't the advancement of the feminist agenda, it's the advancement of the capitalist agenda. And that same agenda is reflected in many of these tshirts.

True... to a certain extent. Of the women who want to stay home, but say they can't, how many:
-have cell phones? Unnecessary, bill, IMO.
-own a home where rent is cheaper? Perhaps renting is a temporary option for these families.
-have cable television? Also unnecessary IMO.
-make other unnecessary purchases?

I live in Massachusetts where you can't find a shack for less than a quarter of a mil. DH and I have a $1800 a month mortgage in an area with jobs that don't pay well enough to justify the cost of living. Still, DH works his job, works a second part-time job, I tutor when I can, and freelance just enough to BARELY scrape by. I never leave DD for more than an hour at a time, and can always plan bfing around my work. I eliminate all unnecessary bills and I'm still wearing clothes that I've had for the past ten years.
Now, I totally agree that some groups of women really have no choice but to work. I feel for women who are in low-income brackets and who haven't got a partner to share financial burden. But I really think more mothers could stay home if our society weren't so materialistic. There, I said it, and I'm not sorry. Maybe it's because I know primarily middle class people, but I feel like some of the mothers I know could stay home if they didn't insist on wearing new clothes, owning brand-name stuff, driving new cars, etc. Then again, if they don't want to SAH, who the hell am I to judge?
I think the primary problem is the nuclear family set-up - NOT WOH. My parents and DH and I are in the market for a 2 family home so we can share a mortgage. If we do that, I will go from having a $250K (purchase price) mortgage to a $75K mortgage. Not only will I be able to stay home no prob, we'll also be able to save for Hazel's college fund. Most families don't share the load like this. I'm not saying that people are wrong for living in a nuclear set-up - I'm just saying you can't exclusively blame WOHM for a multi-tiered problem. Both the nuclear family set-up and WOH have no simple solution, and they are both indelably ingrained in our culture.
I guess I really resented your post because I feel like it implied WOHM who enjoy what they do should be apologetic for the fact that it's difficult for other women to SAH. I also feel like you undermine the importance of women being financially independent if they want to be. Your post also implied that only one type of opinion is allowed on MDC. Are we supposed to all agree on stuff? Yeah, that would make for interesting convos. If you have an issue with something someone said, refute it intelligently with an arguement. Don't just say their opinion is sad and frustrating without explanation.
But if we're talking working poor mothers, then yes, WOH is exceedingly difficult and it's unfair that some women can stay home and some can't. I admit that I have a slight advantage being educated and from a middle-class background. However, I still consider women being able to make more money an "advancement". I should hope that I am still welcome to post on MDC without "frustrating" someone because of this belief.
Sorry for the hijack. Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by CaraNicole

If that's what your upset over, never mind. I can see that we are never going to agree and frankly the longer I'm in this thread the more I think my head is going to explode.

An interesting way to open your mind, but whatever works for you.

Well according to your logic when you wear a shirt "promoting someone" as you say wouldn't you be "promoting" everything they do on their show or atleast be in agreement with what they say? It's the same thing but since this thread is all anti happy bunny no one cares, got it.

Yes, generally so! I'm very glad we have achieved some understanding of each other's point. Yes indeed, if I wear a shirt "promoting someone" (your words), then generally, I am in agreement with a sufficient amount of what they say to constitute general agreement with the majority of that person's or entity's opinions. For instance, if I wore an "I Heart Hitler" t-shirt, I may not agree that annexing the Sudentenland was a great idea, but I might really, really like what he's done with Poland.

Well since it's the same bunny it's relevent, I'm suprised noone found a double meaning on those...

Nope, just the one mean meaning.

No I don't characterize myself as a badass streetwalker the momma who sent me the DDDDC does, I'm not sure if you know how a DDDDC works but you do not get to pick them.

Very sorry, but this constitutes a complete abrogation of responsibility that I haven't seen since I quit reading the Ron Paul thread. Anyhoo, I have a feeling that if someone gave you a DDDDC with which you utterly disagreed and found insulting and/or did not want to have representing you, it would be a relatively easy matter to PM a moderator or CM herself and have it removed.

Your continued acceptance of it constitutes exactly that: acceptance of it and, one can reasonably presume, agreement with it. Just speaking of myself here, if someone called me a "streetwalker," in whatever context, I wouldn't be happy with it -- and I really, REALLY wouldn't want random MDC guests to read that and view me through that particular prism.


Really, it's up to you to take this, but I would like to offer you some advice. Take responsibility. Take responsibility for what you say and what you do and what you wear and how you appear. Not just you -- everyone, including me. That's real assertiveness and real identity, not the ersatz kind one buys at Claire's.

It's a joke and I took it as such (actually me and that momma had a great laugh on it) but if I ever end up on a street corner I'll be sure to blame a momma on here for sending me that(well since it affects how I feel about myself and all ).

Does faux self-pity work for you IRL? This is a tactic that is not worthy of you.

Aparently your not allowed to make a joke anymore. See that's the thing with comedy either everything is funny or nothing is you can't pick and choose what people can make fun of or you open yourself to censorship. I am happy that some people in this world still have a sense of humor. Once again if you don't like the stuff don't buy it. Anyways I'm off to go poison some cookies.

I cry BS on the "censorship" comment. What you possibly don't get or are deliberately obfuscating the difference between (I would prefer to think the latter), is that there is a TREMENDOUS difference between censorship and criticism. In this country, you may say a great many things -- but all of them come with some degree of consequence. If I say something on this board that is "legal" by this board's user agreement but objectionable, e.g., "BRITNEY SPEARS IS A GREAT MOTHER!" or "CLOTH DIAPERS POLLUTE THE ENVIRONMENT," I will need to deal with the consequences and people will object to what I said. This, however, does NOT constitute censorship.

Please do not distort facts.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by CaraNicole

Ok I can sum this up...I think without even stepping on toes. I personally don't see happy bunny as being bitchy, diva, slut, and princess.
I see it as tounge in cheek, now as for clothes that do have
"super bitch" "the hotness" "future porn star" "I'm hung like a 5 year old" "kiss my black ass" oh and the 3 yr. old that had a HUGE pot leaf on his t-shirt
THOSE are the shirts that seeing kinds in would make me go huh, WTF?

Cara, to use your own logic here, why isn't that just an example of tongue-in-cheek humor? Really, would you mind explaining that? Because I'm sure if you went up to the parent of (for example) the "Future Porn Star," and said, "Why would you want other people to think that your child will be exposing his or her private parts, having sexual relations with strangers, and selling those sex acts for money as a career?" the response you'd likely get is, "God, I'm just KIDding. Can't you take a JOKE? Get a sense of HUmor."

I have seen ALL those shirts on kids under 5ish. So when mommas are getting offended by a teen wanting happy bunny, I think of it as PG to what ELSE is out there.

This is very faulty logic. If you applied that same logic elsewhere, you'd see why it's faulty. If a serial killer said, "What I've done is not so bad -- I've only killed three people, but the guy next to me has killed sixteen," the fact that someone else has done something worse than he has does not make him Mother Teresa. If a guy smacks around his wife and says, "I'm not such a bad guy -- look at O.J. Simpson," it does not make him Husband of the Year. Yes, a dirty grey cloth looks whiter next to a black one, but not even the contrast is enough to make it white.

[nonconformnmom]

Meg Murry - I am almost finished with the book you reference in the OP "Packaging Girlhood: rescuing our daughters from marketers schemes" and I can only say, I am getting more and more angry with every page I turn of this remarkable and well researched book.

Every parent of girls should read this book. Don't wait, it may be the most important thing you can do for your daughter.

It's difficult to understand, to recognize, the pervasiveness of it unless you read a book like this. Yes, incidents and packaging looked at in isolation or on a product by product or brand name by brand name basis seem harmless, but when viewed as part of the collective whole, in the context of the culture and the standards and expectations, it is appalling. Truly frightening.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by nonconformnmom

Meg Murry - I am almost finished with the book you reference in the OP "Packaging Girlhood: rescuing our daughters from marketers schemes" and I can only say, I am getting more and more angry with every page I turn of this remarkable and well researched book.

Every parent of girls should read this book. Don't wait, it may be the most important thing you can do for your daughter.

It's difficult to understand, to recognize, the pervasiveness of it unless you read a book like this. Yes, incidents and packaging looked at in isolation or on a product by product or brand name by brand name basis seem harmless, but when viewed as part of the collective whole, in the context of the culture and the standards and expectations, it is appalling. Truly frightening.

I couldn't agree more and I'm grateful to the PP who suggested it. Interestingly, my DD and I just walked into Old Navy yesterday and the first thing I saw was a new display for jeans with the very large words "SWEETHEART," "FLIRT," and "DIVA" written across the display. Yep, that's it. You can only be one of those three types if you want jeans. The "sweetheart" has the highest rise; the "diva" the lowest.

What I want to know is where is the display for "TIRED ENGLISH TEACHERS WHO DON'T WANT TO SHOW THEIR FLABBY POST-PREGGO STOMACHS TO THEIR SIXTH PERIOD SENIORS" happens to be. I still can't find it.:

[~gilli~]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

I think I must be explaining myself very poorly. Sorry...I'll try again with examples.

Okay, why not t-shirts or notebooks that say things like,

* "Smart Girls Love Math"
* "Hermione is My Hero"
* "I Heart Harvard"
* "Smart Girls Don't Need Sugar Daddies"

or whatever. I could see an advantage to promoting the "smart, academic girl" identity in that many girls (smart or not) would like others to think that they are smart; more girls than guys go to college now, so slogans like these would be reflecting something like reality, and so on. It would be socially beneficial in that it would promote and encourage a behavior that encourages intellectual (and probably financial) advancement.

Conversely, statements like the one in my OP promote a stereotypical view of girls as competitive, backstabbing, materialistic, nasty, and dangerously narcissistic. I see no advantage to that. Why promote THAT identity?

In short, if they're selling ersatz identity -- which of course they are -- why do they make it THAT identity? If you're going to (for example) have a stupid charm bracelet where the girl can "personalize" the bracelet according to specific charms, why do the charms say things like "Princess"? Why not "Soccer Star," or "Straight-A," or "Science Whiz" or "Madam President" or whatever?

Why is this bitchy, diva personality being bought? Why is it being sold? Why is it being bought and sold to the near-exclusion of almost all other faux identities pushed on girls by marketers?

Can anyone tell me that?

Because people are buying it. The lowest common denominator sells. Period.

[nonconformnmom]

My amateur attempt to explain why people buy this stuff is based, in part, on the fact that many of us moms (speaking of myself here and not presuming to speak of other specific MDC members) were inculturated on this stuff from the time WE were babies. So it's difficult for us to see it - we're like fish in water - we can't see the water.

I know that's true for me. I don't even notice all the sexism and stereotyping that goes on, until I read a book like the one mentioned in this thread and then it's like the whole world changes. I shudder to think about the mistakes I made with my oldest dd (she is 20 years old now), and ones that I will be sure not to make with my younger daughters.

I know that, for me, it used to be that I would see things in stores, and somehow the fact that these things were on the shelves gave them instant credibility and acceptance. 'Oh, girls are buying these shorts that say "Princess" on them? Okay ... whatever.' and I'd kind of shrug and just go on, filling my cart. I didn't *think* .... I didn't *question*. Because it's all part of who I am now, the rampant sexism and stereotyping that I grew up with and never recognized.