Bitchy, Diva Attitude - Page 5

[rupiezum]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

Yes indeed, if I wear a shirt "promoting someone" (your words), then generally, I am in agreement with a sufficient amount of what they say to constitute general agreement with the majority of that person's or entity's opinions. For instance, if I wore an "I Heart Hitler" t-shirt, I may not agree that annexing the Sudentenland was a great idea, but I might really, really like what he's done with Poland.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by ~gilli~

Because people are buying it. The lowest common denominator sells. Period.

But I honestly don't think it's that simple. Sure, people are buying it, but look at what I said about Old Navy where they had the three basic "jeans identities" available for purchase. When there are only three basic identities for girls (and basically the SAME ones as for adult women: princess, a.k.a. "sweetheart"; diva, a.k.a. "diva"; and slut, a.k.a. "flirt"), then women aren't really given a choice, are they?

Or I suppose we could wear no pants.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by nonconformnmom

My amateur attempt to explain why people buy this stuff is based, in part, on the fact that many of us moms (speaking of myself here and not presuming to speak of other specific MDC members) were inculturated on this stuff from the time WE were babies. So it's difficult for us to see it - we're like fish in water - we can't see the water.

I know that's true for me. I don't even notice all the sexism and stereotyping that goes on, until I read a book like the one mentioned in this thread and then it's like the whole world changes. I shudder to think about the mistakes I made with my oldest dd (she is 20 years old now), and ones that I will be sure not to make with my younger daughters.

I know that, for me, it used to be that I would see things in stores, and somehow the fact that these things were on the shelves gave them instant credibility and acceptance. 'Oh, girls are buying these shorts that say "Princess" on them? Okay ... whatever.' and I'd kind of shrug and just go on, filling my cart. I didn't *think* .... I didn't *question*. Because it's all part of who I am now, the rampant sexism and stereotyping that I grew up with and never recognized.

That makes sense to me.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

Future Diva

Future Princess

Future Slut

I was just lurking, but clicked on these in disbelief....does it really say "future slut?!"

Well, no....and that isn't what I got from those tshirts at all. I am kind of shocked that someone would interpret a toddler tee so perversely (slut). Considering that they are toddler sized, I get:

Present Diva
Present Princess
Presently Innocent and Sweet. But soon I'll be a sneaky 6 yo . (said by the mother of a 6 yo )

[lisalou]

Interesting to see Stephen Colbert compared to a product line whose sole purpose like Bratz and Barbie is to appeal to the edgy side of tweener's and younger kids while their mothers think "well at least they're still playing with dolls." since Colbert doesn't let his own kids watch his show b/c he's worried they're not old enough to understand the irony behind his persona.

For the OP the image sells, that's why you see stuff like that at Claire's. It sells b/c it's "edgy" while still being "cute". It's a rebellious image that still underlines the idea that a woman or girl can only be a bitchy diva, slut or a princess. It's the same reason Bratz sells now and Barbie did before them.

Personally I have a dark sense of humor, but I'd never buy dd this stuff. When she fully develops her own dark sense of humor and has a job, she can buy the stuff with her own money.

[pinksprklybarefoot]

I'm a little late to the game, but since I read through the entire thread, I feel the need to add my $0.02.

The thing that really bothers me about the t-shirts (and girls' clothing in general sold these days) is that is is just all a bit too grown-up for my taste. Kids should be kids as long as possible. A lot of these shirts I might find tongue in cheek on an adult, but on a young girl they are inappropriate.

For example, when I was 8 mo prego, I took to wearing one of my old t-shirts from my party days that said "One boyfriend is never enough." It gave DF and I a laugh, anyway. Would not like to see DSD wearing a shirt like that. At least until she is in her twenties.

We buy a fair amount of my DSD's clothing at Old Navy because it is affordable, but I will have to rethink that. No way in heck am I sending a 4 y.o. off to kindergarten with pants that have "Diva" or "Flirt" on the tag.

FTR, I also despise the shirts that say things that label a child as a troublemaker. I know it is supposed to be funny, but it seems unwise/unfair to label one of your children that way.

[mommy68]

oops

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

Yeah, I have. Again, why encourage thoughtless sexism? Can you imagine how up-in-arms people would be if a boy wore a shirt that said "Girls are dumb"?

I agree.

I won't buy anything that has jargon or writing on it, shorts or pants or hats. Once they're 18 yrs of age and want to buy it and have their own $$ then they can do it.

I can't stand the fact that girls are being taught from a very young age to be b*tchy and sarcastic. It's wrong and I won't allow it in my house. It's all up to the parents anyway.

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

But I honestly don't think it's that simple. Sure, people are buying it, but look at what I said about Old Navy where they had the three basic "jeans identities" available for purchase. When there are only three basic identities for girls (and basically the SAME ones as for adult women: princess, a.k.a. "sweetheart"; diva, a.k.a. "diva"; and slut, a.k.a. "flirt"), then women aren't really given a choice, are they?

I just checked the Old Navy website, and for girls they offer "the girlfriend" and "the darling" jean styles. I consider either of those to be just about completely innocuous. I don't think they are at all the same as "diva", "flirt" or "slut".

However, "the darling" is nauseatingly patronizing. As is all the personality-branding. I shop at Target, a bit at Lands End, and I'm trying to find a good thrift store.

ZM

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

I just checked the Old Navy website, and for girls they offer "the girlfriend" and "the darling" jean styles. I consider either of those to be just about completely innocuous. I don't think they are at all the same as "diva", "flirt" or "slut".

I agree....I don't nec disagree with the op about marketing nastiness and sexism, but some of these things can be interpreted fairly innocently.

As for Old Navy, I don't shop there but I did click on the website because of this thread. I also saw a high-rise Goddess style. That is pretty positive, right?

[beccalou79]

Hey, I haven't had time to read everyone's responses here, but in case someone hasn't already posted the link, I thought you'd enjoy this pro-smart girl clothing site:

http://www.mindcandyclothing.com/

I'm thinking of ordering a few shirts for myself!

[nicole lisa]

Originally Posted by aussiemum

Honestly Annettemarie, I'd use the words bitchy or diva or just plain bloody ignorant towards anyone who used words like 'Boys are stupid' or 'Jailbait' for babies, regardless of whether they were male, female, or hermaphrodite. To me, no one is 'inferior', & the way I read a lot of the merchandise language here is that it is trying to put certain people down, i.e. suggest inferiority, kwim?

Ugh. We just had to deal with the "Boys are Stupid" crap in a book store over the weekend. DS (7 in a month) was looking for a blank book for drawing/notes/etc and came across one with "Boys are Stupid." He looked at it, read it and then started crying. He kept asking how girls would feel if there was a book with "girls are Stupid" on the cover. It really hurt him and I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would think that appropriate to say about anyone and then market it to a kid. Here's a page which list the "Boys are Stupid - Throw Rocks at Them" wallet and the "Where Boys Are Made (Stupid Factory)" key chain as the perfect gift for grade 7 girls so they can "tell the world how they really feel!!!!" http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._under_10.html

The same company (David and Goliath) that does the Boys are Stupid stuff also has

boys are stupid (5 pages of rock throwing, eye poking, poo flinging etc): http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/i...e=HCGT&page=1&

fatty cakes: http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/i...e=HCMA&page=1&

boy girl:
http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/i...ETAIL&pid=1849

dumb blonde:
http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/index.php?mode=HCGD

All of this is marketed to tween and teen girls. It's not smart or witty or empowering.

[silly_scout]

Originally Posted by nicole lisa

fatty cakes: http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/i...e=HCMA&page=1&

Nevermind the fact that one of the t-shirts in this link is insulting to the Chinese as well.

[BurgundyElephant]

Packaging Girlhood is an awesome book. It's amazing how insidious the marketers are in all areas.

I went ahead and added most of the movies to my queu at Blockbuster, although they didn't have some of the documentaries. My DD's loved the older Little Women movies, too! I've also checked out some of their recommendations for books, and put many others on my Amazon wishlist. A Fairy Tale is a great movie!

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by nicole lisa

Ugh. We just had to deal with the "Boys are Stupid" crap in a book store over the weekend. DS (7 in a month) was looking for a blank book for drawing/notes/etc and came across one with "Boys are Stupid." He looked at it, read it and then started crying. He kept asking how girls would feel if there was a book with "girls are Stupid" on the cover. It really hurt him and I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would think that appropriate to say about anyone and then market it to a kid. Here's a page which list the "Boys are Stupid - Throw Rocks at Them" wallet and the "Where Boys Are Made (Stupid Factory)" key chain as the perfect gift for grade 7 girls so they can "tell the world how they really feel!!!!" http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._under_10.html

The same company (David and Goliath) that does the Boys are Stupid stuff also has

boys are stupid (5 pages of rock throwing, eye poking, poo flinging etc): http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/i...e=HCGT&page=1&

fatty cakes: http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/i...e=HCMA&page=1&

boy girl:
http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/i...ETAIL&pid=1849

dumb blonde:
http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/index.php?mode=HCGD

All of this is marketed to tween and teen girls. It's not smart or witty or empowering.

Do yourself a favor and don't look at everything on the site. I have never seen so much un-funny and mean spirited crap in one place in my entire life. The sad part is they're probably making tons of money.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by bigeyes

And ftr, I am as sarcastic as they come, I love evil humor, but I am trying to keep my children away from it. I really notice a difference in the way they behave when they are exposed to people who are mean and snotty just for the sake of being mean and snotty.

At least when they're older they will know when it's appropriate. At 9 and 10 they don't. Which is why we watch Mind of Mencia after they are in bed.

:

Much of what I would have said has already been said.

I love dark humor, satire, and sarcasm as much as the next guy...for adults...who are more capable of truly understanding its subtleties. Many kids and tweens just don't get it for what it is, and there is the danger of them thinking the messages should be taken literally. I am a firm believer that everything has a season, and it upsets me that the darkness/sarcasm is spilling over to younger and younger people who are less and less equipped to really comprehend it.

I have never liked the diva/bitch/princess thing, and never will, for adults or especially for younger females. And the whole 'dumb boys' thing bothers me just as much. Sigh.

And THANK YOU for the mind candy and cafe press links - I am SO buying some of these positive message shirts for me and DD - and even some of the others for DS!

The ONLY message Tshirt I've ever bought was one for DS last year, that said, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." because that was SO him then . I bypassed many other message Tshirts that were mean spirited or painted the wearer as a 'troublemaker' - I just don't see how that's a positive thing, and I'm not big on advertising or spreading negativity.

[jennnk]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

:

Much of what I would have said has already been said.

I love dark humor, satire, and sarcasm as much as the next guy...for adults...who are more capable of truly understanding its subtleties. Many kids and tweens just don't get it for what it is, and there is the danger of them thinking the messages should be taken literally. I am a firm believer that everything has a season, and it upsets me that the darkness/sarcasm is spilling over to younger and younger people who are less and less equipped to really comprehend it.

I have never liked the diva/bitch/princess thing, and never will, for adults or especially for younger females. And the whole 'dumb boys' thing bothers me just as much. Sigh.

And THANK YOU for the mind candy and cafe press links - I am SO buying some of these positive message shirts for me and DD - and even some of the others for DS!

The ONLY message Tshirt I've ever bought was one for DS last year, that said, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." because that was SO him then . I bypassed many other message Tshirts that were mean spirited or painted the wearer as a 'troublemaker' - I just don't see how that's a positive thing, and I'm not big on advertising or spreading negativity.

My son has 2 shirts with writing on them
"My IQ is higher than the president's"
and
"I do all my own stunts"

because both are true

[Viewfinder]

The Stronger Women Get, the More Men Love Football

Originally Posted by bigeyes

It wasn't exactly that, it was more about the attitude that football players and fans have about women, and violent tendencies in football players. IIRC. it's gonna drive me nuts that I can't think of it.

http://www.amazon.com/Stronger-Women.../dp/0380725274

Susan Faludi wrote Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women. Every woman should read it. Contemporary culture has a subversive machinery that disappears women's true history almost as it happens. Backlash preserves some salient points of the system as it has pulled to and fro, and what and who are the tuggers.

VF

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by pinksprklybarefoot

For example, when I was 8 mo prego, I took to wearing one of my old t-shirts from my party days that said "One boyfriend is never enough." It gave DF and I a laugh, anyway.

It doesn't matter that they have shirts for someone over 18. The problem is with the really young children being allowed to wear them. When I see a 6 yr old with shirt on that says something nasty I *know* her parents had to buy it for her at that age. It's more possible for a 14 yr old to buy a nasty shirt and hide it from the parents but a 5/6 yr old? come on, the parents have to be okay with it and that is what really surprises me. It's tacky :

I've never really been the type to like t-shirts with any type of writing on them anyway. My son wanted a Dr. Pepper shirt from Walmart a while back and I got it for him because it was cute and he thought it was cool, but I didn't want to get it and it's grown on me.

[2tadpoles]

I don't have any daughters. My boys own almost nothing other than message t-shirts. We all like dark humor, and my kids understand sarcasm. My 12yo has a shirt that says "I'm with stupid" on it, with an arrow pointing to one side. I bought it for him, and he wears it when he's out with me sometimes (which implies that I'm stupid). We laugh about it.

The reason we think it (and other shirts) are funny is because it's so over-the-top and unbelievable. I have the Happy Bunny candy tin that says "Poison" on it....but that word is crayoned out and "Mints for Friends" is scribbled underneath.

Anyway, I don't understand the idea of personalities being "sold" to girls. I think that something can't be sold unless there is a buyer. Personal responsibility is where it's at. If I see a 5yo with "flirt" across the seat of her shorts, I'm not going to blame society or the corporations who manufacture the product. I'm going to blame the parents who bought the item.

And people are free to judge me for letting my son wear an "I'm with stupid" shirt. The people who look down on me for that are not likely to be people I care to spend time with, anyway. My kids are happy, kind, and well-adjusted....despite our enjoyment of the Happy Bunny, Foamy the Squirrel, and the Family Guy.