How would you respond to these pro-meat arguments? - Page 2

[loriforeman]

Originally Posted by Gale Force

Actually, most beef in this country is raised on grass until it's finished on grain. Here in our area, they range in the mountains on grass that humans cannot eat. When they mature, they are sent to auction and then fattened on grain at a feedlot. The only steers or cows I know of that are entirely grain fed are show animals.

i was actually only talking about the amount they consume while being fattened during the 120-150 days they are on the feedlot.

and i was also only speaking of the US.

"Why is the beef footprint so large? Using DOC figures on numbers of beef cattle and acres of pasture in some of the biggest beef-producing counties in Nebraska, Texas and Colorado, the average beef cow requires about 10 acres of pastureland. Before most of these cows go to the slaughterhouse, they spend 120 to 150 days being fattened in a feedlot where the average cow consumes about 2600 pounds of grain. This grain on average represents 0.4 acre of arable land. Thus each beef cow has a footprint of about 10.4 acres. At slaughter, the average cow weighs an estimated 1,200 pounds. Only half of that shows up as meat in the supermarket. Each pound of meat that we buy therefore represents 1/600 of the beef cow's footprint, or about 0.017 acres. That doesn't seem like much, but the average U. S. citizen consumed 63 pounds of beef in 1994 (DOA), so that our per-capita beef footprint was about 1.07 acres. Much of that acreage is arable land that could be used to raise foods with smaller footprints. If each of us would simply reduce our beef consumption to about half of our present consumption on a yearly basis (about 30 pounds - slightly more than 1/2 pound per week), and substitute chicken or pork, for example, which are the meats with the next largest footprints (both about 0.0009 acres/pound), we would go a long way toward permitting a world population of 10 billion to have a potentially sustainable diet comparable to ours. Our food problem may be manageable with minimum pain."

quoted from: http://egj.lib.uidaho.edu/egj09/palmer1.html

[Gale Force]

Hey Lori. I think the average grain intake is something like 3 lbs grain per lb of beef. I think I got something like 500 lbs out of the last steer. Had he been grained, that might have been 1200-1500 lbs grain. He would have been fatter so I would have gotten more than the 500 lbs.

So not to hijack, but better than cutting beef consumption in half would be to buy direct from the rancher like I do, before the steer has been grained.

This land would also take a lot of work to be farmed. We have a family garden that we terrace and could reasonably put in a hobby orchard. As demand increases it might be more profitable to farm the land. But for the most part, the cattle in California are in areas like this. The rest of the land is too expensive to have as pasture land.

I'll ask a rancher next time I see one how many pounds they feed a day when they finish their own steers for their freezer.

Amanda

[zoebird]

i suppose my background is a bit different. i've been vegetarian for 8 years. i was vegan for the first 5 of those years. i am now TF lacto-ovo vegetarian. my husband is a TF omnivore.

so, my perspective comes from an 'animal welfare' argument. i do not believe that vegetarianism is a healthy diet for everyone, nor do i think that everyone can be sustained on a vegetarian diet. thus, i believe that killing animals for food is appropriate when necessary, but it should be done with the utmost care and conscientiousness. this is why i call my husband a "conscientious omnivore." he is very particular about his food sources--the way those animals were/are bred, raised, and slaughtered is important to him. i take the same approach with my dairy and egg products as well (usually buying from farms that do not kill cows or chickens at all).

It is SO BIZZARRE to me to be questioning any of this at all. Vegetarianism has been an enormous part of who I am & my belief system. But some things are just not lining up for me, & dh is concerned that we might be lacking some nutrients, or more specifically, he's worried that our babies I carry might end up lacking because I've been veg so long. So, we're researching. And researching. And researching.

it is not bizarre to me. these are questions that i have long asked. veganism makes sense from a variety of perspectives, except when it comes to my own health and the health of many others whom i know and love. i do support veganism--but i also support omnivorism.

and i consider vegetarianism a "part of who i am" too--and i do it for "spiritual reasons" but that doesn't mean that others are not as moral, as spiritual, as i am. this is just what I must do for my own spiritual purposes.

[loriforeman]

Originally Posted by Gale Force

Hey Lori. I think the average grain intake is something like 3 lbs grain per lb of beef. I think I got something like 500 lbs out of the last steer. Had he been grained, that might have been 1200-1500 lbs grain. He would have been fatter so I would have gotten more than the 500 lbs.

So not to hijack, but better than cutting beef consumption in half would be to buy direct from the rancher like I do, before the steer has been grained.

This land would also take a lot of work to be farmed. We have a family garden that we terrace and could reasonably put in a hobby orchard. As demand increases it might be more profitable to farm the land. But for the most part, the cattle in California are in areas like this. The rest of the land is too expensive to have as pasture land.

I'll ask a rancher next time I see one how many pounds they feed a day when they finish their own steers for their freezer.

Amanda

i've never actually ranched myself...i'm only going off of the facts posted on the eco-site. my family raised pigs and stuff (ick), but i've always been a conscientious objector myself, lol.

still...to only receive 500 pounds of meat...i'd rather have the three-times worth of grain.

[Gale Force]

Originally Posted by loriforeman

still...to only receive 500 pounds of meat...i'd rather have the three-times worth of grain.

But there's the third option of getting the meat from the animal raised in conditions that can't be farmed and also getting the grain. But in this case, I wouldn't tend to eat the quality of grain that's used for animal feed.

Best of luck zjande.

[Elsaraw]

Interesting thread!
I've been a vegan for 22 years, mainly for ethical reasons but also for everything else that goes with it.
I used to be SuperPetaGirl and never consider any other options. My attitude has relaxed, a little, now though.
I firmly believe that if you can humanely (in the truest sense) raise an animal yourself then when the time came you wanted to eat it - if you personally can look the creature in the eye, kill it, skin it.. do it all yourself... then go for it. I can have no "beef" with that (sorry)
If you can't then you have no real right in eating it. We all have the capacity to pick an apple or dig up a potato but this would take a different consitution.
If the killing, etc is a part of your nature then maybe you do need something out of it.

[snowmom11]

This is a really interesting thread. I'm so glad you started it.

These are issues that I've also thought about for a good part of my life and have changed my stance on over time. These days I am not a strict vegetarian-- my diet is mostly plant based, but I do eat fish and fowl from time to time. I've decided that I don't want what I eat to be a defining factor in my life, so I don't worry about justifying the particular diet that seems right to me. There are all sorts of complex ecological, moral, social, and spiritual issue at play, so I don't know that it's possible to find the one true diet .

[moonyoungi]

Hi. I'm semi-vegitarian by default, because my husband and son are vegitarians and we don't cook meat in the house, and we rarely go out to eat.

And living with a person who has been vegitarian for like almost....20 years...I've learned a lot. But I still have some questions that doesn't have cut and dry answers.

Anyway, my husband's thinking is that eating small amounts of meat could be beneficial to your health, given that it's a healthy meat, but he says it goes against his spiritual being. And he'd rather be little less than optimally healthy than harming other spritual beings....or that's what I can interpret from his explanation....

[ChristaN]

While I would agree that eating small amounts of certain types of meat are probably fine from a health standpoint, I do not believe that not eating any meat is likely to lead to less than optimal health for myself. I don't see it as trading my health for my spiritual wellbeing. Both are important to me and I believe both to be well cared for by my dietary choices.

[nicolelynn]

Originally Posted by zoebird

i suppose my background is a bit different. i've been vegetarian for 8 years. i was vegan for the first 5 of those years. i am now TF lacto-ovo vegetarian. my husband is a TF omnivore.

so, my perspective comes from an 'animal welfare' argument. i do not believe that vegetarianism is a healthy diet for everyone, nor do i think that everyone can be sustained on a vegetarian diet. thus, i believe that killing animals for food is appropriate when necessary, but it should be done with the utmost care and conscientiousness. this is why i call my husband a "conscientious omnivore." he is very particular about his food sources--the way those animals were/are bred, raised, and slaughtered is important to him. i take the same approach with my dairy and egg products as well (usually buying from farms that do not kill cows or chickens at all).

It is SO BIZZARRE to me to be questioning any of this at all. Vegetarianism has been an enormous part of who I am & my belief system. But some things are just not lining up for me, & dh is concerned that we might be lacking some nutrients, or more specifically, he's worried that our babies I carry might end up lacking because I've been veg so long. So, we're researching. And researching. And researching.

it is not bizarre to me. these are questions that i have long asked. veganism makes sense from a variety of perspectives, except when it comes to my own health and the health of many others whom i know and love. i do support veganism--but i also support omnivorism.

and i consider vegetarianism a "part of who i am" too--and i do it for "spiritual reasons" but that doesn't mean that others are not as moral, as spiritual, as i am. this is just what I must do for my own spiritual purposes.

VERY well said! This is why I have vegans as close friends (infact we used to be room-mates)while being omni myself. We both have solid health and moral reasons for both (many based on the questions PP mentioned), acknowledge this and do not consider ourselves to be morally superior to the other. I'm thankful for my vegan friends, that acknowledge that I have thought through my path seriously and do not judge me for it.
"Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind".